My Phal Naples Night is gone!!!

[kktbva]

I can't believe I killed my Phal Naples Night. A few days after I received the plant from Jerry, I reportted it in coconut husk chips, bark, charcoal, and a little sphag. It seemed to be doing well for a couple weeks. I watered once a week and sprayed every other day with worm tea. Then yesterday, since I didn't see any progress, I decided to move it to the kitchen windowsill to give it more light. I accidentally hit one of the leaves (not very hard) and the leave just felt off the plant! I got panic, so I examined each of the remaining leaves, and every one I touched just felt off onto my hand The leaves were all green and looked very healthy.

All I had left was the root, which seemed to be dry. I think it died because of being underwatered. I "sphag and bag" the root, but doubt it will survive....hic...hic...

~Kathie

[sandra]

That is a total bummer. What I find strange is the way in which it died. I would think the plant would go limp. I'm suspicious that something else was going on. I don't know if it's right or wrong but I'm not so sure how compromised it became because of the daily misting, possibly? Were you misting the whole plant?

[NancyG]

Sorry to hear about that.

Mine started out a little limp but is fine now. I will keep a watch on it.

So strange that the leaves looked fine and just fell off. Do you think any bugs got at it? The roots didn't look so good.

NancyG

[kktbva]

Hi Sandra,

I sprayed the plant and the surface of the medium every other day, not too much though. I placed it with the 2 Dens I got from Jerry in the same order (Yellow Song and Oriental Smile) and 4 other mature Phals which are all doing well, no sign of bugs/diseases.

~Kathie

[janet_a]

when otherwise healthy leaves just fall off, it's usually rot at the base of the leaf. or some type of chemical insult--al had some of his plants do that after the fire at his greenhouse; he figured it's the plant equivalent of smoke inhalation.

an underwatered plant will do the shrivel-up-and-die thing, not just come apart all at once.

[articuno75]

The base of the leaves look almost like they didn't get to dry out quick enough and developed and fungus/rot. Was there air flowing on the plant and what was the temps in the room?

[brookn]

I had a Phal Brother Little Yellowboy do the same thing, some plants are more susceptible to these things. This is basically crown rot, you can see where the ends came off and are brown is right at the crown. Misting has to be done very carefully, but mine was not misted and did it anyway, I do get the crowns wet when watering. If they don't get completely dry in the crown it can happen. Cinnamon spray into the crown helps after watering.

[Sharyn]

I agree with the others that it sounds like rot, however, since you're growing on a kitchen windowsill, I'd advise to be very careful when lighting your stove. If it doesn't ignite immediately, gas fumes can kill an orchid very quickly. I speak from experience. You should also remove your orchids from the kitchen when using the heavy-weight cleaners with chemicals.

Just a thought....................

[Hummer344]

This is exactly what my species phal did. Its a mystery to me but rot is probaly the answer.

[patticake]

This is so sad! I'm inclined to agree with some of the others. If water was collecting in the leaf joints from the mistings, and also not enough to the roots, and they were drying out, then I think you might have gotten rot right where they meet the center. I have a large Phal noid that that started to happen to way back. I started making sure the roots were damp, but not wet, and keeping moisture from where the leaf joins the stem. I have 2 leaves that are o.k.- I think it will be quite a while (if at all) before it recovers. You might want to start over instead. Good luck!

[mayres]

Sounds like we are all thinking the same thing (crown rot). I also think the routine mistings (and then not drying out enough) were a factor. Unlike many phal growers I drown mine, crown and all, when I water and periodically just for fun in lieu of a lighter "misting" - as long as its done early in the day and it is warm with good air movement - never a problem. Most of us who have grown very many phals seem to come across a plant that does this - as noted, it is interesting how you can be treating all your plants seemingly identical and they all are doing great and just one will do this. The trick is determining - what was different on this ONE? A populaton of microorganisms different from its earlier life (my guess)?

[articuno75]

Mike has a good point, but they all came from the same tray. If Kktbva's had a specific type of microorganism like that, then wouldn't all of them have it? I don't see that happening.

Something is going on with the plants that several of the members are experiencing with the "floppy" leaves and rotting of crowns. For every one of the incidence that have occured I have asked the conditions, (ie~temp, light, ). There is that one key factor that is going on that is causing this and we need to find the culprit and pin it down. Thing is what is it?

[solay]

POOO. I hate when plants all of a sudden die like that. Unexpected and all. So sorry to hear that. Wish I knew more about Phals. to help.

[mayres]

Do we have another DIMP (died in my possession) from a rotten crown? Bummer! I'm wondering if getting the plant potted too deep in the pot with moisture retentive mix could play a factor?

[articuno75]

No, I think Kktbva's was the first death. (I could be wrong... ) but there are the others with leaf and root problems that could possibly lead to another DIMP.

What I have noticed on the others was that it was taking too long for the medium to dry out, and it wasn't drying out evenly. Also it was getting chillier in the evenings. These Phals like to get wet, but dry out quickly. They also like to stay warm. When mine started to droop, the temp dropped in my apartment all the way down to 68 degrees. The medium was still damp and the Phal didn't like it at all.

[berkeleysgr8]

I had purchased a couple of Naples Nights last year. One of which put up two big, gorgeous, branching flower spikes. Well, I killed the poor thing before more than just a few of the flowers opened (they were more stunning in person than in photos)... I apparently overwatered it. Sorry to hear you lost yours too. I'm not too proud to admit that I've had many, many DIMPs over the years. Maybe that kind of sorrow is what we need to keep our gratitude when we SUCCESSFULLY get an orchid to re-bloom!

[patticake]

Hummer's plant was in 40 degree temps. at night. Phals like 65+ at least the species- Thats what Cynthia noted in another thread. What were your temperature ranges?

[articuno75]

LOL, Patti you silly goose, Hummer's was the Phal amboinensis. But yeah, Hummer chilled/killed it.

What I was thinking was the Naples Nights were getting a little cooler than intended during the night. This would cause the floppy/dropping/rotting leaves.

[patticake]

Sorry! The brain is totally screwed up these days!

[patlee]

I think Mike might be on to something--My Naples Night has a leaf that is "floppy" rather that pointing upward like the rest of the leaves I have it potted in Schultz's Orchid with "fired ceramic granules". According to the package these are supposed to improve drainage and moisture retention Hmmmm Someplace in my subconscious I have decided that all my problems with chids come from potting things too close to the wet mix! So I've started pushing the medium away from the base of the plant. This weekend, if all goes as planned, I will take a step towards the ultimate remedy:mounting!!

[articuno75]

I thought the same thing Patlee.

But with the others did they have temp drops???

I went back to the grassroots and thinking that this is a warm grower that needs to dry fast, I stuck it back in to moss in a clay pot. (like how I treat my species) It's flourishing, the roots are growing and the floppiness stopped with a complete perk up!

Now the reason I haven't posted or updated is because I want to make sure that this is the actual results. I have been having chilled nights in my apartment and the medium was staying wet longer. Not now.

So did I solve the problem??? I don't know for sure, but the results look promising.

[PhalPal]

I am stumped. Ya know guys, I don't see any crown rot from the photo?? Dehydration would have showed up in the leaves; root rot would show in the leaves looking dehydrated as well. I have never seen perfectly normal leaves fall off from the crown like that, so something must be going on with the crown but I dont see it.

Good news is....if you have a leaf and some roots you have a chance IF the crown has some viability.

[articuno75]

Connie, look at the roots again. They're rotted. Remember these roots have a pink/white/green look to them. Her's are all shriveled and white. Also I think it's harder to detect the rot with these from the variegation on the leaves. Mike's first Naples Nights from last year look bad, but I can't remember if it shows the typical signs of a normal Phal.

(Mike you still got that pic? )

Same goes with the crown. With the base being that dark burgundy/red color, it might be hard to detect a malfunction until it's severe.

[patticake]

My Naples Nights is in Schultz's mix... It seems to be doing o.k.- it has a small spike started. I still have our thermostat set at 65. during the day it gets warmer than that in the house, but on the really cool nights, the heat kicks on. (My husband is sooo pleased about this!) I told him I'm not going to let my chids freeze! His reply was

[PhalPal]

Jenny I know the roots don't look great, but they were apparently enough to keep the leaves from becoming dehydrated. Leaves will not fall off in this manner if dehydrated. Varigated leaves very often have a burgundy tint to them but will still be black if crown rot or fungus is present. Even if the crown is the culprit, it is highly unusual for leaves to just fall off when looking so healthy.

Mayres? Are you there?? Have you ever seen this?

[Sharyn]

I have never seen perfectly healthy looking green leaves fall off a plant. My gas poisoning turned the leaves very limp and they fell off quickly - next day and still green. Plants were dead within days.

Once a very cold draft from the window left open turned some leaves yellow overnight and they promptly fell off the plant the next day. Those plants survived and just started over with new growth.

This is a mystery. I'll continue to follow this thread.

[brookn]

Well, as I said earlier, these things happen. Mine happened in August-not cold, no chills. I don't have gas anything in my home. Mine are on a table 2 rooms from the kitchen. What I saw was this: I approached the plant, and saw that at the area right at the bottom of the crown that I could see looked black and funny. I leaned over it, and down into the crown looked funny. I took the leaf, and started to lift it up to look at the crown, and the entire plant fell apart. The leaves looked just like kktbva's looked on the end. Further inspection showed that there was basically a ring of rot around the base of the plant right above the bark, a line of demarcation so to speak. A brown end, and healthy leaves, and the roots were pretty much okay. From what I could tell the places where dead leaves had been cut off and had dried to the base held it together, and probably contributed to the rot. Now when there is a dried bit around the crown of my Phals, I carefully tweeze it off the plant, so that I can see what is going on at the level of the crown.

[kktbva]

Hi everyone,

I’m sorry I have been offline for days because of a flu. I can’t remember when was the last time I got a flu this bad.

Anyway, thanks for all your input. Thought it might help if I tell you more about the growing environment of the plant:

- The Naples Night was put on a shelf next to the two Den. (Yellow Song and Oriental Smile) that I got from the same shipment and the other 4 mature Phals that are in 6-inch pots. The shelf faces southwest window in my computer room. The 4 Phals have been on that shelf since last fall and been doing well (new roots, new leaves)

- There is no gas connection in my house and I don’t cook a whole lot.

- The room temp. was between 70 and 78 during those weeks that I had the Naples Night

- The Naples Night and the two Den. had the same medium (coconut husk chips, small barks, charcoal, and just a little sphag) and had the same watering schedule (once every Saturday around 9AM, with misting once every other day around 7AM) with worm tea that I got from Jerry in the same shipment and tap water that I let stand for a week in the clean milk gallons. I removed the cap of the worm tea bottle right after I open the package and it’s been capless since.

The two Den. and the 4 Phals are doing fine. I touch the leaves of the Den. everyday and they are still attached

~Kathie

[articuno75]

How was your airflow?

[PhalPal]

Could this possibly be related to the worm tea somehow??? Perhaps contaminated and the Naples Night was the most sensitive to it?? Just grasping at straws!

[articuno75]

Connie! That was going to be my second question!

[kktbva]

Well, the small fan is on only about 3, 4 hours a day. I used the worm tea on all my other orchids as well (most mature, some seedlings) but none of them show any signs of not being happy.

~Kathie

[Rocinante]

Originally Posted by kktbva

A few days after I received the plant from Jerry, I reportted it in coconut husk chips, bark, charcoal, and a little sphag.

I think sometimes, myself included, when we acquire a new plant our enthusiasm to provide optimal growing conditions for our new acquisition causes us to be a little too anxious to re-pot. I think this causes our plants to become stressed, and while unexpected, bad things like this can occur. I myself, having experienced this in the past as well, have made a vow not to re-pot new plants for at least a month after arrival in order to give them a chance to acclimate themselves to their new environment. After all, they were doing fine in the greenhouse and media they were raised in, otherwise they wouldn't have been sold. A grower doesn't want your plant to die any more than you do. You won't buy from him again...

[jerrymeola]

I have kept 6 of the Phals in 2 inch pots and one mounted. One is in spike (two more 2 inch pots had spiked and I sold them) All are doing well and none have floppy leaves. It has been very dry here and I have been watering almost every day. When I miss a day or two and they get too dry I water even if it is late in the evening and water with a hose. I just do not worry about crown rot. I have found the leaves still wet the following morning without a problem.

I potted another 15 Phals for sale in 4 inch pots. I sold 8 and this week I noticed the leaves had fallen off one. The roots were dried and shriveled so I assume lack of water. All the plants are growing next to each other.

All the Phals are in sphag and daily watering is not always enough. The longest period without drying out was 2 days. They are all outdoors and temps in the 90s and no humidity. I do not know why the 4 inch pots seem to dry faster than the 2 inch pots. It is possible they have more air flow over the roots in the larger pot.

I am beginning to see a pattern where 2 inch pots (on Cattleya mostly) are growing better than the same plants in four inch pots. It is too early to make any conclusions. I did conclude that plants grown in 2 inch grower trays do better than 2 1/2 inch pots and shallow pots do better than deep pots, even when I use styro to fill the bottom. Deep pots (3 1/2 inches) did better with styro filled bottoms than all bark.

I have a couple of Naples Nights from last year and they did have floppy leaves on the old leaves and the new growth is strong and firm. This is common leaf damage over a winter for me. I never even though about what might be the reason, cold , water, humidity etc?