what orchids do well in Sphag-only media?

[amersault]

i know Neo's can, and Phals have proven adept at this as well.

what about Dens & Epis? or Catt species? will Paphs tolerate such a set-up?

i have an SLC that i would like to repot after bloom and offshoots of an Epi i am considering.

they would return to clay pots, were i to proceed, but i'm wondering if Sphag is a new direction i can take.

[LouisW]

I would say that sphag will not work well for some of these.

Dens are tough and adaptable so I wouldnt be suprised if they did alright but they prefer more air and faster drying.

For Catts I think it is a bad idea. Catts like to be on the drier side and they want to be almost dry between waterings.

Both Catts and Dens would prefer a coarse bark or stone. This allows for plenty of air circulation on the roots and less water retention.

Paphs are terrestrial. Sphag is used to simulate and epiphitic environment so its just the wrong situation for them. A great medium for Paphs is the coir mix. you can find out how to make that on this forum. Sorry I dont know how to include a link.

I personally avoid Sphag but im sure that other geeks are having success with a variety of genus. Hopefully they will let you know how its working for them.

[amersault]

thanks, Louis - that's cleared up a lot (and saved the lives of a few of my plants )

[Hummer344]

I am not a spag fan for the home user. Its either to dry or to wet. Hard to control the moisture unless you are on top of it at all times.(which I am not) If its a phal, I can re-pot it any time. It usually doesn't affect the blooms. Most anything else I wait until it quits blooming then repot.

[articuno75]

I actually received a Den from Wal-Mart that was in all spagh. It did fairly well, but I like my Dens in my own mix, so I repotted it after a couple months. Now I do know that Den. monfiliformes are traditionally potted like Neofinetias.

[Brooke]

I use sphag/tree fern for anything I am growing that is very small in size. I've used it to start den keikis and backbulbs, catt backbulbs with no roots, encyclia seedlings, anything I unflask including all phals, Laelia purpurata, Psy. papilio but not any of the Tolumnia family, any paph or phrag that needs to be resusitated :>)

I grow all Masdie, Lycaste, Maxillaria, my lone Anguola, my lone Bollea, all Trichopilia and about half of my Bulbo family in sphag/tree fern. All phals under a 4" pot are grown in it too.

The secret to growing in sphag is to use an additional ingredient to make sure the sphag cannot compact on itself and to learn not to water until the top of the pot is crunchy.

Brooke

[katrina]

I know a grower who has tested all different plants in sphag and due to the success he's had they have switched all their plants over to sphag. Including those you wouldn't necessarily think compatible w/the sphag...ie catts.

He said the key to success is to have no more sphag than you have root mass. Keep the pot very small...only just big enough to fit the roots and a little sphag...and be sure not to pack it tightly....only loose. For those who prefer to be on the drier side...water only when it's crunchy and shrunk from dehydration. Which means it will probably need to be soaked in order to re-hydrate. ?

He does grow in a g/h.

Personally, I am growing some oncid alliance, phals, paphs, encyclia, maxillaria, zygos and a Den Mingle's Sapphire (likes lots of moisture) in NZ. I have not been doing it for very long on most of these and most have a little tree fern, coco chips or cork chips (depending on the plant) in the mix to 'open' it up a bit and/or help it fit the pot.

My oncids and phals have been in the sphag the longest -- about a year and they are loving it. Before the sphag...the oncids were sick and had root loss due to root rot and the phals were very small and extremely dehydrated. The oncids are doing better than the ones in bark mix. And the phals seem to have sprung back from the dehydration better than those in the bark mix.

The other plants...well...I'm testing things out and I'll see how it goes.

I'm also testing the sphag and bark mixes in clay vs. plastic pots. It'll be interesting to see which way works best for my space. Sometimes I think you've just got to try it out (small scale) and see if it'll work for you...or not. Choose a plant or two that are noids and/or you don't mind losing if the worst happens...and go for it.

I don't know if this has been any help at all but that's my 2- cents.

[brookn]

I use sphag for small plants, and Phals in pots under 6". I have some Oncid in sphag, and frankly am getting ready to transfer another couple of them, I notice that the pbulbs are so much fatter and happier. I also know of a very experienced grower that uses sphag on Catts, and I have used a sphag/bark mix on smaller Catts (in the future, I will most likely be putting all small Catts in sphag/perlite). I have used sphag on seedling size dendrobium also, and it worked very well.

I honestly think that it depends on the plant, and your comfort level with the medium that you are using. I am not a person that has time to fuss too much over the chids, and they sometimes get a little dry in between watering, so the sphag is a great medium for me. It is not for everyone, but if used properly, some plants will thrive in it.

[Bolero]

I would go with Masdevallias and Draculas.

They both do well in that stuff.

P.S. There are some nurseries and growers in Australia (hot dry climate) that successfully grow Cattleya's in it but it's hard to do and I wouldn't recommend it.

[jerrymeola]

The advice in this thread has been very good. Especially if you try to read behind the advice and understand what was happening.

I especially like that no one said 'do it this way'. Hobbyist advice is based on limited experience and usually not enough of external factors is considered.

Cattleya are a good example. Generally sphag is never used on Cats but the commercial grower referenced by Katrina is using it. Notice he said not to use more sphag than roots. What is happening here is that the roots are almost bare root (the natural way for Cats to grow) and the minimum amount of sphag keeps the moisture high slowing the drying rate. I can see where it works, but you have to control watering too match and most hobbyist have a couple of bad weeks where the plants are ignored and then problems with this type of setup.

Similar with Paphs. Their normal growing conditions is heavily dark wooded areas around springs. They grow naturally in silt along the stream beds or in heavy decomposing leaves on the bank sides. Sphag simulates this very well, but totally dry sphag gets very hard whereas the stream bank never does. Use sphag but do not let it dry out hard. It would damage the hair roots on the plant. In Florida commercially we grow Paphs in sphag.

The only absolute is that orchids can grow in just about anything. The growing conditions need to vary based on the medium. My advice is to chose the medium that suits your conditions and watering frequency. You need to only change medium once to match your conditions rather than trying to change your habits every day when you water to match a difficult medium.

It was good advice to try a couple of less important plants before you change everything.

[dr_frnkblck]

I prefer sphag for Phals but most other orchids I use bark or bark/charcoal mixture.

[amersault]

Brookn noted Onc's can do well in sphag - could i try repotting and Ondontioda in this fashion? the PSBs may benefit from this and the ones that i have all currently have a top dressing of sphag.

[dr_frnkblck]

I have a Mtssa that I gave a top dressing of sphag because it was drying out way too fast. It just has a very thin layer over the bark.

[kazjak]

I only have a Macodes petola growing in Sphag.. I grow everything else in S/H. When I tried the Jewel in S/H it almost died on me. Now it's rebounding nicely. My Miltassia could probably benefit from the sphag since I'm getting some ribbon leaves but I'm giving the plant some more time to acclimate to the S/H before I give up the ghost. (Just a little Halloween talk)

[nenella]

"Sometimes I think you've just got to try it out (small scale) and see if it'll work for you...or not. Choose a plant or two that are noids and/or you don't mind losing if the worst happens...and go for it.

I don't know if this has been any help at all but that's my 2- cents. "




I have found this to be a very interesting thread and find great wisdom in Jerrys words as well as Katerina's 2 cents worth :-
and would like to share my own 2 cents worth of experience; especially for any beginner 'sphag & bag' users as, although I read & read all to do with this subject..... I "rotted " & killed all my first attempts at the resussitation of sick plants.

I have been experimenting as have had to change my orchids' 'growing conditions' 3 times in 4 yrs (job moves) & have always found Sphag to be the most 'difficult' to 'control' up to about a year ago I realised that when I put some 'sick' phals in my 'Orchid Revival Care room' (which is our Laundry room with; west facing small window, protected by overhanging roof,) In Sphag & Bag they do wonders and don't need to be "looked at or watched over for weeks" !!! took me a year to get this right!
my method put simply is :
-soak cleaned plant base in rooting hormone
- put plant into a normal plastic pot
- very loosley fill pot with soaked & well wrung out sphag
-put into a ziplock bag
et voilà..patience....

I found that at first to get the right humidity (wrung sphag) I would need to 'sniff' the bag and if smelt humid would leave it open a bit..and close back later (could be days)
and, Oh yes, I also 'blow' into the bag, puffing it up, once in a while..
.Now I do it once every 2/3 weeks although I do go look at them through the bag regularly

[katrina]

Originally Posted by amersault

Brookn noted Onc's can do well in sphag - could i try repotting and Ondontioda in this fashion? the PSBs may benefit from this and the ones that i have all currently have a top dressing of sphag.

amerisault...both brookn and i have oncids in sphag and it works well for us. Most oncids are heavy drinkers and I'm finding that for me personally, the sphag seems to work better given my climate, growing conditions and the way I tend to the plants.

Ondontioda are in the oncid alliance...best advice would be to give it a try...monitor the plant and see how things go. If you find it's declining at all...get it out of the sphag. On the other hand, you might find it thrives for you w/that particular medium.

Side note - monitoring the roots is much easier if the plant is in a clear pot. LOVE the clear pots for keeping an eye on things.

[amersault]

thanks, everyone, for their input and replies!

it's interesting to hear about the successes and shortfalls of this method and i'm eager to try it w/ my plants. as much as i want to repot the Odontioda in this fashion, i'm hesitant bc none of those are plants i'm willing lose in the process (what plants are you willing to lose in any process?? hahah). the SLC might end up in Sphag and a mount. if i do, i will post the end result.

in all, i'm leaning towards potting up the PSBs in sphag bc i find i'm watering them constantly and still not getting the humidity right, tray and all. hopefully this will solve the problem.

[kid a]

I have killed alot of things that were in spahg so I try not use too much. I do have my neos, a sederia japonica, a mini sederia japonica, a jewel orchid, and 3 restrepia in sphag now though. After I got used to it I haven't killed anything in it so far but I always check out in the books or do some surfing to find out if the plants would do poorly in it or not. What works for one person may not for the next so you also have to take into consideration the environment they are in too.

[brookn]

I have Oncids in sphag, bark, and s/h. The sphag and the s/h make them the happiest, as Katrina said they like to drink. I have one exception, I have 2 small Onc. ornithorynchum that came in the same pot, the smaller one thrives in a bark mix. The bigger one had to be removed from the bark mix, and put into sphag because of the leaves pleating, and pbulbs shriveling. As soon as I popped it in the sphag, the pbulbs fattened up, and I had all kinds of new growth from it. The small one has fat little pbulbs and is super happy in it's bark mix. So I guess the moral of the story is that it also really depends on the plant, as even siblings can want different requirements. I generally let the Oncids in the sphag dry almost completely to the center, and I use a skewer to cue me when to water them. Lately I have been opening the sphag a bit by using perlite mixed in, and tree fern fiber mixed in works well also.

[LouisW]

One suggestion is going to home depot or another big store that sells orchids. you can often find orchids that have finished blooming on sale. I once got two Phals for a dollar. they are NOIDs and they were super cheep and make the ideal guinea pig plants. if you do this it will be well worth killing ten plants to find the one way they grow best. A very useful exersize for newbies like me.

[amersault]

Originally Posted by LouisW

One suggestion is going to home depot or another big store that sells orchids. you can often find orchids that have finished blooming on sale. I once got two Phals for a dollar. they are NOIDs and they were super cheep and make the ideal guinea pig plants. if you do this it will be well worth killing ten plants to find the one way they grow best. A very useful exersize for newbies like me.

i never knew they sold them to you for $1. i'll have to go see next time.

wish they sold Odonts - they're the target i'm hoping to experiment w/.

[jbigio]

I keep all my dracula's, masd,Bulbos in moss. Also my 40 or so mounted orchids and any of the thin leaf hi water users as well. Again as most have said watch the amount of water you use. When the top is dry the bottom is still moist.

[amersault]

Originally Posted by jbigio

I keep all my dracula's, masd,Bulbos in moss. Also my 40 or so mounted orchids and any of the thin leaf hi water users as well. Again as most have said watch the amount of water you use. When the top is dry the bottom is still moist.

this is inspiring me to try it w/ one of my Odonts.

would potting it in spahg now that it's in PSB development stage be too stressful for this plant?

[LouisW]

On the Contrary Psudobulb growth comes hand in hand with root growth which is the best time to re pot because new roots can adapt to their new environment much more easily than older ones.

As for orchids for a dollar I think that was a lucky day, but you can find deals. Odonts are a fairly common genus and i wouldn't be surprised if you found a few, especially in spring when stores start to get a larger variety of genus. (i have a friend that found a Paph. lowii at home depot, an awesome find.)

I stop into this kind of place frequently to check up on what they have. subsequently i have lots of NOIDs but thats alright. i can splurge on expensive and rare species when i gain another year or two of experience.

[jbigio]

Originally Posted by amersault

this is inspiring me to try it w/ one of my Odonts.

would potting it in spahg now that it's in PSB development stage be too stressful for this plant?

No it would be fine to do it now. just dont over water.

[amersault]

thanks guys.

i took a peek deeper in the pot and the mix is aliflor.

i wonder if i should still proceed w/ sphag or a fine bark mix instead.

the last thing i want to do is kill the poor thing

[fred]

I have kept quiet on this thread for a reason and my reasoning is Sphagnum Moss is one of the most used medium I have used and my orchids love sphag... remembering I can collect fresh sphag from the forest.
on the Mountains and on the side of the road in winter if its not frozen

the only fault I see with many orchid newbies that try sphagnum moss is they keep the sphag too wet.
sphagnum moss only needs to be moist and I never let the sphag dry out.

Another tip with using sphagnum moss is when using it to re pot an orchid never pack sphagnum moss tight.
If sphagnum moss is packed to tight and with humid conditions the sphag will go off ( smelling very sour ) and rot.

one thing to keep in mind with sphagnum moss is to remember the climate where it grows. ( very cool and moist climate )

one can also grow sphagnum moss placed in a clear plastic bag kept moist at all times turning the plastic bag over once a week and placed in a cool shaded position

Masdevallia, Odontocidiums, Odontoglossum, some Mini Cattleya, Stanhopea, Sarcochilus all do well for me in sphagnum moss

[amersault]

thanks, everyone! i'll try it with one of my PSB plants and see how it goes. will post progress as we go along. there's new root development now, so will embark on the new potting project soon.

[amersault]

well, someone tipped over the pot w/ a PSB NOID that went scattering all over the living room. only the plant was salvageable.

since i'm in a shortage of fine wood chips at the moment, i decided to go ahead and repot this plant in sphag. we'll see how it does.

on everyone's advice, i soaked the sphag first, and gently wrapped loosely around the roots, not exceeding the root mass. before placing back in the plastic pot, i layered the bottom w/ large bark to air out the mix.

it's been 1 week since the accident, and so far the plant seems to be holding out well.

will post picts shortly...

[mockingbird]

Originally Posted by articuno75

I actually received a Den from Wal-Mart that was in all spagh. It did fairly well, but I like my Dens in my own mix, so I repotted it after a couple months. Now I do know that Den. monfiliformes are traditionally potted like Neofinetias.

I have been working with an dloving orchids for about 5 years. I have had inconsistent results. I started working with a grower in my area who really likes sphag. She repotted my Phal and Dens in sphag. I like it because it is cleaner and easier. But I really want to succed with my orchids. I now have 15, some young some older. I have a Nun's orchid which is new for me. I got it from the same grower and it is in a soil potting. It now has dark spots on the leaves. Ihad another Nun's with the same problem (different grower) and it died. As you can see I am feeling a bit anxious.
What medium do you prefer? Thanks in advance.

[amersault]

welcome, Mockingbird!

i grow my entire collection in bark, but have only now decided to experiment w/ other media. my Phals are in bark, but some users prefer to grow theirs in coir, others Sphag, and still others S/H (semi-hyro). this is to the comfort of the person growing, but mainly the choice of medium has to be tailored to what would otherwise be natural to the plant in question. some plants require an evenly moist and humid set-up, so sphag would be an obvious choice; others require a drier period in between, so a bark/perlite mix might be more appropriate.

as far as medium of choice goes, it really depends on the plant, what you feel most comfortable using, and how closely you can replicate the plant's care to what it would normally receive in his natural environment.

it might also help to read the following culture sheets for -

Phal Orchids
AOS | Phalaenopsis

and Den Orchids
AOS | Dendrobium

[mockingbird]

Originally Posted by LouisW

I would say that sphag will not work well for some of these.

Dens are tough and adaptable so I wouldnt be suprised if they did alright but they prefer more air and faster drying.

For Catts I think it is a bad idea. Catts like to be on the drier side and they want to be almost dry between waterings.

Both Catts and Dens would prefer a coarse bark or stone. This allows for plenty of air circulation on the roots and less water retention.

Paphs are terrestrial. Sphag is used to simulate and epiphitic environment so its just the wrong situation for them. A great medium for Paphs is the coir mix. you can find out how to make that on this forum. Sorry I dont know how to include a link.

I personally avoid Sphag but im sure that other geeks are having success with a variety of genus. Hopefully they will let you know how its working for them.

Thank you for your advice. I feel better about my orchids. As I am a "Newbie", what do all of the abbrev's mean? I can guess Phals, Paphs, Catts, Dens, Oncids. Is a NOID something you can afford to lose, or is it an orchid in need of saving? I have a number of them from my grocery store. Neo's? Thanks again.

[amersault]

not even that exotic - NOID stands for No ID (a plant w/ no tag)

[digitalgate]

i have a spatulata cross with a mini den that refuse to grow in charcoal (as in all my orchid
in charcoal). So i wrap it with Sphrag moss and regrow a keiki!!?? The moss ball was covering the root of the plant and grow like no body business. Furthermore, it has been raining everyday for the past 2 months.
When i first got it it was in sprhrag moss ,i was so afraid of root rot and i took it out of the moss. This one really make me confuse.

[sarahplo]

I have been growing my Beallara in sphag but have been really worried about root rot. since I can't find any of my roots through the sphag, I think this means it's too tightly packed. I like to water once a week, and it wasn't drying out completely so I decided to try cutting some slits in my plastic pot to help air it out. Is it hard to over water a Beallara? I've been thinking of repotting my epidendrum in sphag when it gets at least a few healthy roots.

[amersault]

i'm not sure about Beallara (i haven't kept it) but Epidendrums get tall and rangy - and if you're really lucky, into really big specimen plants. you might not have enough support on Sphag.

also, i believe Epi's like to have their roots dry out between watering - lots of water but makes sure it drains. the Sphag application might smother it.

i thought this post might be of interest:

Mounted Epidendrum

mounting may not be the way you want to go, but see how Aleksa encouraged roots from her Epi cutting. this might give you some ideas.

[brookn]

Mockingbird, the nun's orchid is called a Phaius, and it is terrestrial. You can probably do a search to see what recommendations are for growing one, I know that they are supposed to grow well in soil. As for all the plant names, Phalaenopsis, Paphiopedilum, Cattleya, Dendrobium, Oncidium etc. Neo's are Neofinetia and lots of us Geeks love them. Hope that helps.

Digital, I have 2 Onc. ornithorynchum that I received in the same pot together-siblings. I potted them in my regular bark mix that has this nice ceramic type rock in it. One ended up being in mostly rock. After a few months, the one in the mostly rock was growing like crazy, and the other's pbulbs were shriveling. I potted that one in sphag and it's happy, but it's weird to me siblings could have such different preferences.

[articuno75]

Originally Posted by mockingbird

I have been working with an dloving orchids for about 5 years. I have had inconsistent results. I started working with a grower in my area who really likes sphag. She repotted my Phal and Dens in sphag. I like it because it is cleaner and easier. But I really want to succed with my orchids. I now have 15, some young some older. I have a Nun's orchid which is new for me. I got it from the same grower and it is in a soil potting. It now has dark spots on the leaves. Ihad another Nun's with the same problem (different grower) and it died. As you can see I am feeling a bit anxious.
What medium do you prefer? Thanks in advance.

Well it depends on the type of orchid. For Phal hybrids I like to use cocohusk, perlite and charcoal. (I also use this same mix for my Paphs.) For the species type I use total spagh.

Now when it comes to Dens I use Schultz Orchid mix with some cocohusk and perlite. My Dens love it. I'll have to post some pics of them and show you the results.

This also helps with using wormtea.

[sarahplo]

Thanks for the link amersault! I think it is very useful. I have it in a phal mix which helps me soak it every day or two and it just drains through. But I'm not kidding when I say it doesn't have ANY healthy roots. Do you think I should try a sphag and bag technique? The plant is pretty large....
I'm not sure I'll even be able to keep it alive as I don't think I currently have enough light for it.
Sorry to highjack your thread, but this is my problem child.

[Celcat]

Originally Posted by sarahplo

I have been growing my Beallara in sphag but have been really worried about root rot. since I can't find any of my roots through the sphag, I think this means it's too tightly packed. I like to water once a week, and it wasn't drying out completely so I decided to try cutting some slits in my plastic pot to help air it out. Is it hard to over water a Beallara? I've been thinking of repotting my epidendrum in sphag when it gets at least a few healthy roots.

I have 3 Beallara. I think it is one of the most easy orchids. I do grow my Beallara into a mix of bark, charcoal and I put some polysterene at the bottom of the pot. In summer, I would water every 3/4 days and I would vaporise too on daily basis. In winter, I would water every week. Also, if my heating is on, I might water more often. As my plants are in a transparent pot, I can check easily if the medium is dry and the roots do need watering. I do admit I have never had prob with over watering my Beallara. All my Beallara are on a West windowsill.

[mockingbird]

Originally Posted by amersault

not even that exotic - NOID stands for No ID (a plant w/ no tag)

Thanks. But I am a Newbie, after all!

[mockingbird]

Originally Posted by articuno75

Well it depends on the type of orchid. For Phal hybrids I like to use cocohusk, perlite and charcoal. (I also use this same mix for my Paphs.) For the species type I use total spagh.

Now when it comes to Dens I use Schultz Orchid mix with some cocohusk and perlite. My Dens love it. I'll have to post some pics of them and show you the results.

This also helps with using wormtea.

This AM I started my orchid routine, and what to my wondering eyes should appear but two new growths on seperate Phal plants. Flowers for Easter or sooner.

[articuno75]

I'm going to upload several different pictures of orchids and their potting mediums. You can see the type and consistancy of what the medium is.

This one is of a Den that is in Schultz Orchid mix with some cocohusk and perlite. The perlite has since settled or washed out. This pot has more charcoal in the mix more so than usual. (Inconsistancy with Schultz mix, this is the only thing about the mix that I don't like.)

[articuno75]

Here is another Den that is in the same stuff.

[articuno75]

This Dendrobium has a little bit more cocohusk into the mix.

[articuno75]

Like I said my Paphs and Phals go into the same mix. The blend is adjusted to where there is more coco husk, but the consistency is the same.

Now the smaller ones I will admit I do put some, not a bunch, of chopped spagh into the mix. But this is only for rescues and ones that need the "extra care".

Don't mind the Hydroton ball, it fell in when I was moving plants. LoL