Coir Confusion

[sandra]

OK, Now that I'm thoroughly confused once again.......

Regarding coir....

Have been using CocoGro. I thought the packaging was changed when I saw it but the salesclerk assured me that it was the coir I was looking for and essentially told me, 'coir is coir', (which we know isn't true but that wasn't the issue). When I got it home and opened it, I noticed how different looking it was from what I used in the past. Brought it back to the store and again, they assured me it was used for the same potting and results, just long fibered.

I say, "no way" but I'm really not sure.....never used the long fiber and don't know now if one choice is better than the other and if they can really both be used the same way, expecting the same results? Should I stick with the shorter fiber which is fluffy and a totally different texture but not sure what differences are produced by one over the other....???

The new coir....




What I've been using....

[patticake]

Wow! Big difference! I've never used either. I know that some growers use the long fiber type to wrap the roots of their Neo's instead of sphag. in traditional potting.
Very strange....

[JLu]

You are correct, they are two things, but both coconut fiber based. The second one (fine one) is frequently used to pot regular, terrestrial plants and very frequently as planting medium for flood and drain hydroponics units. I've used it for years for that latter purpose. It works great for hydroponics because it remains unpacked and airy and does not rot. All the nutrients are supplied via the hydroponics fertilizer. It holds water during the drain phase and air during the flood phase.

The fiber one is unchopped and very open. It is used frequently for epiphytic orchids because it does not rot and is very open allowing good drainage and plenty of air to the roots.

Some people use the fine one as a part of a mix for moisture loving orchids like phrags, paphs, and phals. I guess it works, but I think it gets too water logged and not (over time) open enough. Especially if you mix it with larger particles, it can fill in the larger voids and make a mix that holds too much water and not enough air. As I say, some people use it and seem to get it to work.

The long fiber one might not retain enough water for the plants above, but it's great for Catt alliance plants that want very good drainage and quick root drying.

In short you are entirely correct in recognizing a difference and the two are not very interchangeable because they result in drastically different water retention.

Take it back and tell them they have no idea what they are talking about.

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

Using the long fibers may be good for growing orchids, but are dreadful at repotting time.

[brookn]

Cynthia I agree, it's like untangling scorched Barbie hair from the roots. I repotted 2 Neos that were in this fiber, and the stuff was awful to untangle, and it didn't do the roots any favors at all.

[PhalPal]

It seems that all of us growing in coir have vastly different experiences. My coir is not soggy AT ALL and dries out quite quickly; in fact, good GROUND coir holds an average of 70% AIR. I have lots of air pockets when mixing with other media (dynarock, charcoal, perlite and tree fern) and have grown many different types of orchid in the same mix.

Maybe we should start a 'Coir Thread' and we can post pictures of what our coir looks like wet and dry, as well as the brand name and where we got it.

Sandra have you ever thought of trying Aussie Gold and customizing it yourself with other additives to fit Florida's climate??

[JLu]

You're right PhalPal. That's why I use in hydroponics. However, my seedlings are only in the hydro for 2-3 months. If you plant an orchid in it and leave it for too long it starts to break down and get soggy. 'Course I think Aussie Gold is even worse. Apparently you have mastered the use of these materials with your watering plan. I will say this about ground coir, it doesn't get hard to wet like dry peat does. I think CHC is better than any of the above, but that's what makes the world go round.

[sandra]

Ground coir!!!! I couldn't think of the name to distinguish it from this wirey, other stuff I ended up with. I went to the supply store and told them they were incorrect about what they had described and sold me. I wasn't able to really tell the difference until I actually pulled it apart...first clue, because the ground () coir, is too difficult to even cut with a knife but, I soaked it and is when I knew that this stuff wasn't what I wanted. They gave me the ground coir and told me to keep the other stuff. Unfortunately, they didn't have CocoGro but another brand called, CocoTek which I've used and like. So, I'm happy once again.

JLu, thanks so much for the explanation on the differences with both coirs.

Connie, the coirs I use aren't soggy either. I wouldn't use it if that's what it's delivering. It stays very fluffy but you can feel the moisture throughout. I'm not a big fan of Aussie Gold, in fact, don't like it at all. It's way too wet for my comfort. That's what I like about the 50/50 bark and coir mix. The coir keeps the pot airy and the bark, wet (not sopping) longer and allows the mix to dry at a slower rate while still, retaining moisture. Bark alone, dries too fast for me...for my Phals. I use bark mix, alone only for my Dends, which works for them.

Happy Ending!

[sandra]

JLu, one thing I forgot to mention. I love coir!!! I use it for all my Phals and my new collection of Bulbophyllum's! I change the Phal mix, yearly and I agree, it can get too dense over time but I pack lightly too.

Also, I forgot to ask you, what is CHC?

And peat moss....ech!!!

[arleneg]

Originally Posted by sandra

...what is CHC?

CHC = coconut husk chips

[kmarch]

I have bought the ground up coir here in Australia where some manufacturers call it "coir peat" intending that it be used as a substitute for ground peat moss. I use this "coir peat" in my Paph mix. Of course it doesn't have the nutrient content of real peat moss but it does retain water in a similar fashion. I am slowly changing my opinion on using coir peat in my Paph and Phal mixes. I'm almost in agreement with JLu that it retains too muchwater for these orchids. I have some repotting of paphs that I need to do some time soon here and I'll compare the roots where I used coir peat with the ones where I did not.

[berkeleysgr8]

I have a large brick of CocoGro that included both the ground coir and the long fibered coir. The long fiber is on the bottom of the brick and the ground coir is on top. I think having the two combined helps to create a bit of balance... the ground coir holds more water and the long fiber keeps things more airy. I'm new to using coir with my orchids though... I haven't been using it long enough to make a strong recommendation.

[norris]

PhalPal, how do you customize the Aussie Gold for our so.CA climate? Do you use your own mix for all types of orchids? I got a bag and I really like the way it feels and settles around the roots of a plant. (as opposed to having to force the bark in.) I used it straight out of the bag for my one Catt. and I adding a bit more coir from what Arlene sent me for reppoting a Cym. It has only been 1 week, but so far so good

[butt0n]

I was able to place an order for the same brand that mayres uses in his phal potting thread, Cocogro, at a local store in the Bay Area. I can't wait to try it out!

P.S. After reading more of the posts, I hope I bought the right kind... Botanicare CocoGro Coconut Fiber After reading some more, I noticed that they have Cocogro Boss...Anyone know what that is or what the difference is if any?

[JLu]

There is no question that many different mixes are used to grow orchids and grow them successfully. If yours works for you , then by all means keep doing what you are doing. I am not opposed to coir (either kind), I just think the ground version is a risk due to water retention. The biggest problem with ground coir, peat and mixes using them is water retention in the root zone and the appearance of dryness on top (and sides). This is especially a problem in plastic pots.

Cynthia, I agree with untangling problem. I'm not advocating the use of either coir product. Coconut husk chips are sort of like bark and work well for my grower.

One thing has not been mentioned. Coir is nearly always salty and needs to be rinsed at least twice prior to use...and thoroughly rinsed. This can be a serious problem. Some suppliers claim their product is rinsed. I would not take their word for it.

One more important thing...mixing two very differently sized materials results in greatly reduced void volume. Just be aware of it.

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by JLu

...void volume. Just be aware of it.

What are you calling "void volume"? Is that the empty space in between pieces of the mix?

[JLu]

Yes, Kevin, and that is usually not the goal in an orchid medium. In most cases the goal is to allow water drainage and air internally into the mix through the void channels. Small particles fill in the spaces (voids) between large particles. It's mathematically provable that a mixture of sizes is more densely packed than a bed of equal size particles. It's easily shown by taking an equal volume of large, small, and mixed media. Fill each container with water to the brim and pour out and measure the volume of water that was accommodated. The mixed one will have had the smallest volume (void volume) for the water to occupy.

The following is not in answer to your question. I realize I'm preaching to the choir and that you already know this:

Ignoring terrestrial orchids for a moment, orchids grow as epiphytes, lithophytes, or saphophytes. We use a contrived, unnatural method of potting them for convenience. That contrived method must allow for some replication of the natural environment. The most important replication is allowing air to reach the roots and allowing drying of the medium in the root zone. It's obviously a little different for each genus, or even each species, but the general idea is the same.

Like I say, do what works for you. However, some methods offer less forgiveness for error than others. Those that retain the most water are the most unforgiving. The large majority of epiphytes/lithophytes grow great in prime agra, lava rock, and other forms of crushed rock or fused clay. The medium never rots, repotting is never necessary until the plant outgrows the pot (and it isn't necessary to use tight pot fits in the first place). The ONLY reason that it is recommended to use the smallest possible pot for an orchid is so that the medium near the roots drys and drains well. In other words it isn't insulated from the air by a large amount of surrounding material. Orchids have no desire for what some people call "tight shoes". Heck, in nature exactly the opposite is what they enjoy. Wide open space, grow your roots for many feet in some cases.

I think everything above is obvious to nearly everyone reading this and I sure do not mean to appear to be insulting your intelligence. Many of you know way more than I do. However, there are continuing questions that suggest a misunderstanding of what a medium is for. It's just a way to hold the plant and it needs to present a non-hostile environment while doing so.

[Anton]

I use the long fibre coir in my Vanda / Ascocenda baskets as the base, then cover the roots with course catt bark chips.

I have given up on the potting mix coir in pots, lost too many plants from root rot, since changing to med to course catt bark, haven't lost one.

[patticake]

JLu, Thanks- That makes perfect sense. I always try to understand a plants natural growing areas.
African violets like being in tight quarters, because they are found growing in cracks of rocks on mountainsides.(Shady)
I never quite understood the free-spirited roots of orchids being crammed in little pots. This puts everything into perspective, completely!

[kmarch]

Some of this talk surprises me. I've mentioned that I use the gorund up coir (here called coir peat) in my slipper mix because of its moisture retentiveness. But I'm surprised to hear how wet people say the coir chips keep the roots. My experience is just the opposite. I have a kingianum, a Den moniliforme, and a Coelogyne in coir chips and it seems they're always bone dry, except the kingianum which is grown outside and gets really a lot of water. Maybe I should stop beign lazy and water more? LOL

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by JLu

Ignoring terrestrial orchids for a moment, orchids grow as epiphytes, lithophytes, or saphophytes.

Sorry to be a pedant and off topic (I'll leave it to others to decide which is worse) but I've seen the above classification of orchids mentioned a number of times elsewhere on this forum and it drives me nuts in the most petty kind of way. Saprophytism/mycoheterotrophism refers to the trophic nature of the plant not the nature of the surface it grows on. The above statement is much akin to saying orchids are either terrestrial, epiphytic, lithophytic or photosynthetic.


-JLu, I do apologise if I have misinterpreted your typo and you are in fact refering to orchids that grow exclusively on lesbians.

[PhalPal]

Kevin I agree completely with you. My coir mix dries so quickly growing under lights that some of my plants I water every day. I use the skewer method and know what the moisture content is at the roots, not only on top. Without coir in my mix I would be a complete slave to my orchids.

I don't like Aussie Gold by itself because my plants just languished in it. I don't know why, they didn't die but just didn't thrive. Bark works horribly for me and I lost more plants in it than I can count.

I started mixing in Dynarock to accommodate Catts and it works brilliantly for them. Dries quickly, drains great. My Phals LOVE AG, charcol, perlite and tree fern. My species and hybrids alike are growing great and I didn't cut off many rotten roots (if any) when repotting this year. I customize my own mix by starting with AG and adding more dynarock for the types that like to stay on the dry side, or a little bark or coco chips (Cyms) for those that like to stay a little wetter. Phals get a little bit of everything mentioned above and I have never had a better group of Phals.

A huge difference in growing conditions and how coir will work for us is the amount of humidity in the area in which we live. I know I mention this all the time, but if you have always lived in a humid part of the world you can't imagine the differences in everyday life living in 10-50% himidity. Coir dries fast! Someone on this forum thought 60% humidity in Upstate NY was very dry, and 40% was the 'Sahara Desert.' 8% is desert dry and 25% on a hot summer day is wonderful, not sticky. My orchids have adjusted quite well, I increase my watering during summer, my coir stays dry and fluffy and I don't drip sweat.

My point being, it's entirely possible that coir in any percentage just may not work in Kentucky, Florida, or the tropics. Sandra has come up with a recipe that works for her and her coir stays fluffy. She has also lived in both Ca and Florida and would have a good basis for comparison. Basing an opinion on perhaps one brand of coir, or worse coco-peat (mud) isn't fair. We are trying to compare apples and oranges basing our opinions on what type of coir we have and use in our environment without considering all the other variables.

So, I go back to my first thought - Let's start a thread on Coir, what brand, where we got it, and how it works under our conditions. This thread is a great discussion but it doesn't address the author's environment. I'll start the 'Coir Discussion' thread later today; I think it would be helpful for growers trying to determine what will work best for them.

[PhalPal]

Andrew maybe you can start a thread and add more clarification to these definitions??? I think it would be very helpful since many of us choose our media depending on what a plant grows ON in the wild.

[JLu]

Andrew, I love your style and intelligence. I won't even hide from the lesbians, I typed it that way. I wish I could say it is a typo.

You are 100% correct in your point that epiphyte, lithophyte, and SAPROPHYTE are about as connected as car, truck, and carnivore. However, you must admit that (wrongly) but commonly, the term is used to describe orchids that live in the "leaf litter" space of the forest floor. "Commonly" does not mean correctly and I bow to your correction. Since orchid literature promotes, or prolongs, this usage, I'm afraid that you are sentenced to attacking windmills for life.

GOOD CATCH! TOUCHE!!

[Orchidementia]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Sorry to be a pedant and off topic (I'll leave it to others to decide which is worse) (...) The above statement is much akin to saying orchids are either terrestrial, epiphytic, lithophytic or photosynthetic.

You, to put it mildly, rock!

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by JLu

However, you must admit that (wrongly) but commonly, the term is used to describe orchids that live in the "leaf litter" space of the forest floor.

I always thought this was classified under the obscurely defined category of semi-terrestrial, with saprophyte being restricted to those plants with an obligate fungal dependence such as the terrestrial Rhizanthella.

[sandra]

Speaking of saprophyte, I just got done doing my summertime re-pot of some of my Phals and speaking of coir, the intense humidity here in Florida, becomes a breeding ground for all bacteria/fungus/mold and the coir exacerbates and promotes it further and faster along. I've had outstanding results with coir but it's not enviornmentally favorable, year round here in Fla. When the air starts thinning out in late Autumn, is when I'll add the coir back to the Phals.

Connie, I agree that coir is probably one medium that is successful, contingent upon where you are. Right now, it's almost 10:00 p.m. here and the air is stagnant, the humidity is 87%. Coir and humidity don't mix, not in the ratios I was using for the Phals. For my Bulbophyllums, well, this is my first year growing them and I will just wait and see. Much smaller pots but that shouldn't eliminate the mildew and I may consider a seedling mix for them. Time will tell...though time has nothing to do with this, I suspect....I'm just a little lazy for more re-pots right now.

[sandra]

JLu and Andrew, I appreciate the bantering between you two! Lesbians? I'm stumped. That one went right over my head.

This has turned into one very interesting thread with everyone's input. I love all these points of views here! Thank you everyone for all your opinions.

[brookn]

The Isle of Lesbos was home to Sappho, and other women who lived there. It was an artistic community, and Sappho was known for her affection for women. She was also a poet. I took Latin for 3 years in high school, this was a hot topic. Let me see if I can find a link:

Isle of Lesbos: Poetry of Sappho

[sandra]

So in conclusion, Lesbian is short for Lesbo and not the other way around.

That was extremely interesting reading Brook. Much appreciated. Thank You.

[brookn]

No problem, Sappho's poetry is very beautiful, whenever we read it in class everyone would always giggle about it. As poetry, and of course looking at it objectively, it is very nice.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by brookn

The Isle of Lesbos was home to Sappho, and other women who lived there. It was an artistic community, and Sappho was known for her affection for women.

Ergo the term sapphism as a synonym for lesbianism. Phew! Glad someone else caught on. A very warped sense of humour seems to emerge when I spend late nights on the computer.

[norris]

PhalPal, Thank you for explaining what you do Now I have an idea what will work for the different types of plants I grow. I guess I'll have to be very careful watering the Catt. I put in straight AG though. But it can't get much worse than the results I had in bark... i had no new root growth since last fall.

[kmarch]

Take heart, the wry humor was not lost on all. My partner is a classist so I was well aware of the subtle humor bouncing around. At risk of pulling the thread further off topic, I recently encountered a book of fragments of Sappho poetry. Aparently a large volume of her poetry survives only in snippets and pieces and someone has compiled and translated all of these bits. Some of them are elegant and stunning.

Anne Carson is the woman who compiled and translated the fragments. The name of the book is: If Not, Winter.

[Bolero]

I would definitely choose the chips over the coir........it's really a great medium for most plants. Although I'm slowly discovering that some Paphs don't do well.

[kmarch]

Are oyu talking bark chips Bolero?

[sandra]

Originally Posted by norris

But it can't get much worse than the results I had in bark... i had no new root growth since last fall.

That may be no fault of the bark norris. Catts don't actively grow constantly, they rest at certain times. You're now coming into the season when you should start seeing active growth with your Catts., roots and bulbs. I would think bark be a good medium, even in California. You may have to up your watering frequency, not necessarily change to a different medium.

[JLu]

Andrew, I went back through some books in my pretty good orchid library to see where the saprophyte term was used incorrectly to describe a growing environment rather than the correct food source usage. I do have two questions later if I don't forget before getting to them.

I found no source that specifically used "saprophyte" wrong. Actually I was pretty impressed at the correct usage and my complete ignorance. I am wearing my "stupid" sign all day today. I have learned something in this thread and, if necessary, maybe someone has also.

Here are my questions:

Obviously some fungi are saprophytes. I assume that those that feed on live plants, like most rusts, are just parasites. Is that right?

Second...those orchids that are saprophytes actually get their nutrients via saprophytic fungi. So is it proper to call the orchids saprophytic since they don't actually get their nutrients directly from the decaying matter?

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by PhalPal

It seems that all of us growing in coir have vastly different experiences. My coir is not soggy AT ALL and dries out quite quickly; in fact, good GROUND coir holds an average of 70% AIR. I have lots of air pockets when mixing with other media (dynarock, charcoal, perlite and tree fern) and have grown many different types of orchid in the same mix.

Just to prove I can stay on topic, I don't use ground coir on my orchids but I do use it as a peat substitute for propagating mixes. While it is initially quite a fluffy, airy medium that dries very quickly, I find it starts to lose its structure over a few months to become a much heavier, water retaining, peat-like material.

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

Kevin, Dens in small pots can suck the pot dry in a couple of days no matter what mix is used. That is why I water my Dens every other day during the growing season.

To all: I have a pet-peeve about mixes that are difficult to repot. Coconut chips are on my dislike list because the roots like to adhere to the chips unbelievably well. I seem to do a lot of damager to roots when removing the chips.

[PhalPal]

Andrew I have not had that problem at all, probably because I don't use straight coir. I have been using some form of coir mix for about a year and a half. Another reason why I love this type medium - it doesn't stick to the roots! Having used up my Saturday repotting two Cymbidiums and a Sobralia because of the coco chips sticking to the roots I can totally agree with Cynthia.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by JLu

Andrew, I went back through some books in my pretty good orchid library to see where the saprophyte term was used incorrectly to describe a growing environment rather than the correct food source usage. I do have two questions later if I don't forget before getting to them.

I found no source that specifically used "saprophyte" wrong. Actually I was pretty impressed at the correct usage and my complete ignorance. I am wearing my "stupid" sign all day today. I have learned something in this thread and, if necessary, maybe someone has also.

Here are my questions:

Obviously some fungi are saprophytes. I assume that those that feed on live plants, like most rusts, are just parasites. Is that right?

Second...those orchids that are saprophytes actually get their nutrients via saprophytic fungi. So is it proper to call the orchids saprophytic since they don't actually get their nutrients directly from the decaying matter?

I've continued this discussion over in General Chat to avoid getting too OT. Feel free to discuss homosexuality and classical poetry in that thread too.

[solay]

Brookn, thank you for that wonderful reading. Very interesting indeed. I loved Greece. It has such history and beauty.

I'll have to read this thread again when I have a little more knowledge of all this terminology.

I just potted up a bunch of Catt. seedlings in a mix small bark,charcoal, and perlite with a little spagh. moss on top. Do you think I should have used coir instead?

[butt0n]

Originally Posted by butt0n

I was able to place an order for the same brand that mayres uses in his phal potting thread, Cocogro, at a local store in the Bay Area. I can't wait to try it out!

P.S. After reading more of the posts, I hope I bought the right kind... Botanicare CocoGro Coconut Fiber After reading some more, I noticed that they have Cocogro Boss...Anyone know what that is or what the difference is if any?

I did in fact get the right stuff; I also highly recommend the place I got the bricks from...very fast shipment and they have a lot of indoor/hydroponic growing supplies, a lot of which are aimed at orchids.