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05-10-2008, 09:24 AM
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| Coir Confusion OK, Now that I'm thoroughly confused once again....... Regarding coir.... Have been using CocoGro. I thought the packaging was changed when I saw it but the salesclerk assured me that it was the coir I was looking for and essentially told me, 'coir is coir', (which we know isn't true but that wasn't the issue). When I got it home and opened it, I noticed how different looking it was from what I used in the past. Brought it back to the store and again, they assured me it was used for the same potting and results, just long fibered. I say, "no way" but I'm really not sure.....never used the long fiber and don't know now if one choice is better than the other and if they can really both be used the same way, expecting the same results? Should I stick with the shorter fiber which is fluffy and a totally different texture but not sure what differences are produced by one over the other....??? The new coir....  What I've been using....  Last edited by sandra; 05-10-2008 at 09:28 AM.      |
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05-10-2008, 09:39 AM
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| Wow! Big difference! I've never used either. I know that some growers use the long fiber type to wrap the roots of their Neo's instead of sphag. in traditional potting. Very strange.... 
__________________ Patti  |
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05-10-2008, 11:43 AM
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| You are correct, they are two things, but both coconut fiber based. The second one (fine one) is frequently used to pot regular, terrestrial plants and very frequently as planting medium for flood and drain hydroponics units. I've used it for years for that latter purpose. It works great for hydroponics because it remains unpacked and airy and does not rot. All the nutrients are supplied via the hydroponics fertilizer. It holds water during the drain phase and air during the flood phase. The fiber one is unchopped and very open. It is used frequently for epiphytic orchids because it does not rot and is very open allowing good drainage and plenty of air to the roots. Some people use the fine one as a part of a mix for moisture loving orchids like phrags, paphs, and phals. I guess it works, but I think it gets too water logged and not (over time) open enough. Especially if you mix it with larger particles, it can fill in the larger voids and make a mix that holds too much water and not enough air. As I say, some people use it and seem to get it to work. The long fiber one might not retain enough water for the plants above, but it's great for Catt alliance plants that want very good drainage and quick root drying. In short you are entirely correct in recognizing a difference and the two are not very interchangeable because they result in drastically different water retention. Take it back and tell them they have no idea what they are talking about. Last edited by JLu; 05-10-2008 at 11:46 AM. |
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05-10-2008, 11:57 AM
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| Using the long fibers may be good for growing orchids, but are dreadful at repotting time.
__________________ Cynthia Prescott Orchid Society  |
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05-10-2008, 12:03 PM
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| Cynthia I agree, it's like untangling scorched Barbie hair from the roots. I repotted 2 Neos that were in this fiber, and the stuff was awful to untangle, and it didn't do the roots any favors at all.
__________________ "If nature ever showed her playfulness in the formation of plants, this is visible in the most striking way among the orchids. They take on the form of little birds, of lizards, of insects, a man, a woman, sometimes like a clown who excites our laughter. They represent the image of a lazy tortoise, a melancholy toad, an agile, ever-chattering monkey. Nature has formed orchid flowers in such a way that, unless they make us laugh, they surely excite our greatest admiration." Jacob Breynius |
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05-10-2008, 01:02 PM
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| It seems that all of us growing in coir have vastly different experiences. My coir is not soggy AT ALL and dries out quite quickly; in fact, good GROUND coir holds an average of 70% AIR. I have lots of air pockets when mixing with other media (dynarock, charcoal, perlite and tree fern) and have grown many different types of orchid in the same mix. Maybe we should start a 'Coir Thread' and we can post pictures of what our coir looks like wet and dry, as well as the brand name and where we got it. Sandra have you ever thought of trying Aussie Gold and customizing it yourself with other additives to fit Florida's climate??
__________________ "Women who obey seldom make history." |
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05-10-2008, 04:00 PM
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| You're right PhalPal. That's why I use in hydroponics. However, my seedlings are only in the hydro for 2-3 months. If you plant an orchid in it and leave it for too long it starts to break down and get soggy. 'Course I think Aussie Gold is even worse. Apparently you have mastered the use of these materials with your watering plan. I will say this about ground coir, it doesn't get hard to wet like dry peat does. I think CHC is better than any of the above, but that's what makes the world go round. |
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05-10-2008, 05:24 PM
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| Ground coir!!!! I couldn't think of the name to distinguish it from this wirey, other stuff I ended up with. I went to the supply store and told them they were incorrect about what they had described and sold me. I wasn't able to really tell the difference until I actually pulled it apart...first clue, because the ground (  ) coir, is too difficult to even cut with a knife but, I soaked it and is when I knew that this stuff wasn't what I wanted. They gave me the ground coir and told me to keep the other stuff. Unfortunately, they didn't have CocoGro but another brand called, CocoTek which I've used and like. So, I'm happy once again.JLu, thanks so much for the explanation on the differences with both coirs. Connie, the coirs I use aren't soggy either. I wouldn't use it if that's what it's delivering. It stays very fluffy but you can feel the moisture throughout. I'm not a big fan of Aussie Gold, in fact, don't like it at all. It's way too wet for my comfort. That's what I like about the 50/50 bark and coir mix. The coir keeps the pot airy and the bark, wet (not sopping) longer and allows the mix to dry at a slower rate while still, retaining moisture. Bark alone, dries too fast for me...for my Phals. I use bark mix, alone only for my Dends, which works for them. Happy Ending! Last edited by sandra; 05-10-2008 at 05:27 PM. |
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05-10-2008, 06:18 PM
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| JLu, one thing I forgot to mention. I love coir!!! I use it for all my Phals and my new collection of Bulbophyllum's! I change the Phal mix, yearly and I agree, it can get too dense over time but I pack lightly too. Also, I forgot to ask you, what is CHC? And peat moss....ech!!! Last edited by sandra; 05-10-2008 at 06:20 PM. |
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05-10-2008, 08:07 PM
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| I have bought the ground up coir here in Australia where some manufacturers call it "coir peat" intending that it be used as a substitute for ground peat moss. I use this "coir peat" in my Paph mix. Of course it doesn't have the nutrient content of real peat moss but it does retain water in a similar fashion. I am slowly changing my opinion on using coir peat in my Paph and Phal mixes. I'm almost in agreement with JLu that it retains too muchwater for these orchids. I have some repotting of paphs that I need to do some time soon here and I'll compare the roots where I used coir peat with the ones where I did not.
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05-11-2008, 01:19 AM
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| I have a large brick of CocoGro that included both the ground coir and the long fibered coir. The long fiber is on the bottom of the brick and the ground coir is on top. I think having the two combined helps to create a bit of balance... the ground coir holds more water and the long fiber keeps things more airy. I'm new to using coir with my orchids though... I haven't been using it long enough to make a strong recommendation. |
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05-11-2008, 02:06 AM
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| PhalPal, how do you customize the Aussie Gold for our so.CA climate? Do you use your own mix for all types of orchids? I got a bag and I really like the way it feels and settles around the roots of a plant. (as opposed to having to force the bark in.) I used it straight out of the bag for my one Catt. and I adding a bit more coir from what Arlene sent me for reppoting a Cym. It has only been 1 week, but so far so good  |
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05-11-2008, 02:17 AM
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| I was able to place an order for the same brand that mayres uses in his phal potting thread, Cocogro, at a local store in the Bay Area. I can't wait to try it out! P.S. After reading more of the posts, I hope I bought the right kind... Botanicare CocoGro Coconut Fiber After reading some more, I noticed that they have Cocogro Boss...Anyone know what that is or what the difference is if any? Last edited by butt0n; 05-11-2008 at 02:34 AM. |
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05-11-2008, 05:59 AM
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| There is no question that many different mixes are used to grow orchids and grow them successfully. If yours works for you , then by all means keep doing what you are doing. I am not opposed to coir (either kind), I just think the ground version is a risk due to water retention. The biggest problem with ground coir, peat and mixes using them is water retention in the root zone and the appearance of dryness on top (and sides). This is especially a problem in plastic pots. Cynthia, I agree with untangling problem. I'm not advocating the use of either coir product. Coconut husk chips are sort of like bark and work well for my grower. One thing has not been mentioned. Coir is nearly always salty and needs to be rinsed at least twice prior to use...and thoroughly rinsed. This can be a serious problem. Some suppliers claim their product is rinsed. I would not take their word for it. One more important thing...mixing two very differently sized materials results in greatly reduced void volume. Just be aware of it. |
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05-11-2008, 08:10 AM
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| Yes, Kevin, and that is usually not the goal in an orchid medium. In most cases the goal is to allow water drainage and air internally into the mix through the void channels. Small particles fill in the spaces (voids) between large particles. It's mathematically provable that a mixture of sizes is more densely packed than a bed of equal size particles. It's easily shown by taking an equal volume of large, small, and mixed media. Fill each container with water to the brim and pour out and measure the volume of water that was accommodated. The mixed one will have had the smallest volume (void volume) for the water to occupy. The following is not in answer to your question. I realize I'm preaching to the choir and that you already know this: Ignoring terrestrial orchids for a moment, orchids grow as epiphytes, lithophytes, or saphophytes. We use a contrived, unnatural method of potting them for convenience. That contrived method must allow for some replication of the natural environment. The most important replication is allowing air to reach the roots and allowing drying of the medium in the root zone. It's obviously a little different for each genus, or even each species, but the general idea is the same. Like I say, do what works for you. However, some methods offer less forgiveness for error than others. Those that retain the most water are the most unforgiving. The large majority of epiphytes/lithophytes grow great in prime agra, lava rock, and other forms of crushed rock or fused clay. The medium never rots, repotting is never necessary until the plant outgrows the pot (and it isn't necessary to use tight pot fits in the first place). The ONLY reason that it is recommended to use the smallest possible pot for an orchid is so that the medium near the roots drys and drains well. In other words it isn't insulated from the air by a large amount of surrounding material. Orchids have no desire for what some people call "tight shoes". Heck, in nature exactly the opposite is what they enjoy. Wide open space, grow your roots for many feet in some cases. I think everything above is obvious to nearly everyone reading this and I sure do not mean to appear to be insulting your intelligence. Many of you know way more than I do. However, there are continuing questions that suggest a misunderstanding of what a medium is for. It's just a way to hold the plant and it needs to present a non-hostile environment while doing so. Last edited by JLu; 05-11-2008 at 08:23 AM. |
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05-11-2008, 08:21 AM
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| I use the long fibre coir in my Vanda / Ascocenda baskets as the base, then cover the roots with course catt bark chips. I have given up on the potting mix coir in pots, lost too many plants from root rot, since changing to med to course catt bark, haven't lost one.
__________________ Anton On the box it said Windows XP or better so I bought a Mac. |
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05-11-2008, 08:25 AM
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| JLu, Thanks- That makes perfect sense. I always try to understand a plants natural growing areas. African violets like being in tight quarters, because they are found growing in cracks of rocks on mountainsides.(Shady) I never quite understood the free-spirited roots of orchids being crammed in little pots. This puts everything into perspective, completely! 
__________________ Patti |
