Cattleya Crisis AGAIN!

[sandra]

What am I doing wrong here? My cattleya bloomed beautifully this Spring. (sidenote: I hadn't had it in my possession long enough to kill it when it bloomed...but now's another story. ) After the flowering, I repotted it. I did it primarily because there was a distinctable odor of rot. What I uncovered when I removed all the old media was every single root rotted…every one. (I'm placing blame here on the grower, that something was wrong before I took possession because I made sure this plant was thoroughly dry between waterings.) I cut away all the roots, bathed it in a rooting hormone, sprinkled cinnamon, potted it up in fresh bark media and put it in a shady spot. I didn’t water for over 2 weeks and when I started noticing the eyes on the ps.bulbs, I began its watering regimen (drying thoroughly between watering). It’s now in a sunny spot, I wait for the media to dry, 2 ps.bulbs growing fast with more beginning to put forth growth BUT…..the plant has become shriveled in appearance. It looks dehydrated, the bulbs are wrinkly, the leaves in tact, some looking better than others. Should I be watering this more often at this point? There aren’t any roots to rot by watering it before the media dries and I'm holding off on fertilizing until it starts rooting.

All of my other 10 plus catts are growing and doing nicely so I’m assuming because of the surgery performed on this catt., special attention is required that differs from it’s typical care but what to do, I haven’t a clue. Do I dare mention changing the media to sphag, possibly?

[fred]

sandra sphagnum moss may just be the answer untill you get a good growth of new roots.

that is what I would to get the orchid back.

I hope that helps

[kmarch]

Orchids take in water and nutrients through their roots. If there are no roots on your Cattleya, the plant is not taking in any water, which could be one reason why your plant looks dehydrated even though you are being disciplined in your watering habits. Increased watering at this point won't affect the plant because its mechanism for taking in water is gone. It cold be sitting in water and still not be taking any in.

How are the new growths coming? Growing any new roots yet? Another possibility is that new growths use up nutrients and water so the plant could also become shriveled as the new growth uses energy reserves from the rest of the plant. The solution may be as simple as doing nothing ans allowing the plant time to grow new growths and new roots.

Not being able to actually see how shriveled your pseudobulbs are makes it difficult to assess how dire your situation is. At any rate your plant, being without roots, has suffered a setback and it will require some recovery time. that may mean you loose back growths, pseudobulbs and leaves, it may mean that the new growths are smaller at first until the plant has grown a viable root system. I'm not trying to be pessimistic, just trying to let you know what you might expect.

(As a side note, some of you may have noticed that overwatering and underwatering an orchid produce the same symptoms, namely the appearance of dehydration; the overwatered plant begins to loose roots thus reducing the amount of water the plant takes in; the underwatered plant simply doesn't have enough water available to take in. In both cases the plant takes in less water and therefore looks dehydrated.)

[sandra]

Originally Posted by kmarch

Not being able to actually see how shriveled your pseudobulbs are makes it difficult to assess how dire your situation is.

Well Kevin, a picture's worth a thousand words, they say so here goes. Warning: this is very scary and not meant for the faint at heart....


I just looked a bit further this morning and there are lots of roots growing now. I remember Jerry posting a response about catts and how in Asia, every season after blooming they cut all the roots away and pot up rootless. Who am I to have assumed that was all there was to promoting new and faster growth but that's what I assumed and as well, the roots on this were rotted thru and thru.

Is it advised that I cut the back ps.bulbs or divide it, leaving 3-4 ps.bulbs for each division? Obviously, I won't have what it could have been but if it will restore faster this way, I'd rather have 2 smaller plants with blooming potential in this century.

Sphag?

[kmarch]

The Good News
Your new growth looks good, really quite good in my opinion. Does it seem to be actively growing? Bigger today than last week? If so you're making progress. Also even though they are shriveled, your pseudobulbs do not look dead or rotten to me from what I can tell from the pic.

The Challenge
There are a couple of challenges here:
1) reducing water loss from your plant - your new growth is using up some of the plants energy reserves (pseudobulbs are plump when they're hydrated and contain energy stores) you can't help this, you actually want the new growht to use the stored energy so it can mature and grow new roots. Your plant can also lose water through transpiration (the plant breathing). So I'd recomend you put is somewhere where it can get more humidity (and therefore won't loose moisture to the drier outside air). Can you put a clear plastic baggie over it all, pot and everything, to create a kind of mini-greenhouse effect with higher humidity inside?

2) patience - no need to comment further, the one word says it all.

Couple More Things
1) I would definitely not divide the plant. Think of that new shoot drawing on the rest of the plant for its energy and nutrients. If you cut the plant in half, you've just also cut in half the amount fo energy that new shoot has to draw upon. It's the same as beign on a long road trip and you see you're starting to get low on gas, so.....you immediately siphon off half of your remaining gas? No, don't split the plant up.

2) I know the sphag-n-bag method is popular on the forum but I'm alsways a little concerned about the extra moisture rotting off new growths. You could do a half-way thing whereby you bag the potted plant (as I mentioned above). I'm sure others will have opinions on this. i'd like to hear them as well.

Best of luck!

[Vivienne]

Sandra - I agree with Kevin - that new growth looks really good.

Even though you're in Florida with high humidity, I'd opt for the baggy over the plant option as well, but be certain you're careful with the lighting. Does anyone know if plastic bags amplify light levels (like a magnifying glass does)?

I know you'll get that Catt back to happy and healthy status in no time!

[sandra]

I read your response Kevin and felt re-newed, heard the birds singing again, smelled the flowers in the garden, LOL. Life is good again! Really though, I'm quite pleased, very in fact to feel hopeful again. It's been bothering me terribly.

Humidity is what this plant is getting already and in mega doses. Florida's humidity on a dry summer day is about 85% and probably higher. It's very, very humid here every day in summer Kevin. I'll do the bag method although this plant is huge and will have to hunt for one large enough but I'll do it if you advise after learning about the humidity it's already receiving.

As long as I'm doing everything correctly for this plant, my patience is also in mega doses.

I'm so happy with this news that I think I'll buy the maltissa that I saw yesterday.

Thank you for weighing in on this. It's going to be a good day!

P.S. Yes, the new growth (about 4 now) actively growing and see the difference every day.

[Vivienne]

Sandra - 85% - we wouldn't know what to do here in Colorado. The other day on the news they were going on and on about how the humidity was going to be very high for the next day or two. Yep - they were predicting 50% humidity.

[sandra]

Really Vivienne? You knowing the weather I'm talking about and still think I should get a plastic bag wrapped over this? I could probably use a large garbage bag and keep it out of the sunnier part on the patio.

I'm very happy with all this news!

[sandra]

Vivienne, I spent 26 years in California. The only humidity they know is when they open the dish washer in mid cycle!!!!

Originally Posted by Vivienne

Sandra - 85% - we wouldn't know what to do here in Colorado. The other day on the news they were going on and on about how the humidity was going to be very high for the next day or two. Yep - they were predicting 50% humidity.

[Vivienne]

LOL Sandra - opening the dishwasher in mid-cycle. Too funny.

I know the humidity is high there but has it been windy at all? Could that be robbing any humidity?

At any rate... the happy new growth is a good sign and wonderful news.

[prisana]

Sandra, sorry to hear about another orchid misadventure , it's probably from the nursery. I once bought a mini phal , put in on the table that night. By the next morning, the whole top medium was covered in white mold. I repotted it , but there were no roots..and after an attempt of shooting out 2 new little leaves..the orchid god took him anyways. So now I try to look into the pot after I get home from the store..to see if everything is in order in there....

Your plant shoud be fine...I've had some looking worst than yours and they ended up thriving later. I've heard somewhere that if the plant is too big, you could wrap the bottom with sphag and stick it in a pot instead, but I'm not sure how that will work with your new growth coming out.. I don't think it will like being wrapped up.

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

I have used sphag&bag very extensively, and new growths don't rot. 85% is not high enough if the plant is going to have to be without roots for more than just a few weeks. Sphag&bag will hold a plant in good condition for a very long time. Now that your plant has roots tho, the time for sphag&bag is over, and the bulbs should start to fill out again a little as the roots start to take in moisture.

[chefatplay]

Sandy, so sorry to hear of your catt catastrophe! It does look as though you have mothered it back to impending health. Good going, you go girl!!! Have a cattini on me!

[sandra]

prisana, that's interesting because I would have thought that the condition of this orchid was in prime shape because I did buy it from a nursery rather than a chain store. I didn't even consider that it was in such bad shape because it was a nursery and also because the buds were days away from blooming then. Wouldn't you think a nursery would be giving the plants the right conditions all along? I have always checked and typically repot all orchids when I get them home, even the ones in spike. They've always continued to bloom, uninterrupted. This practice will now include any from nurseries in the future. Live and learn....

Cynthia, this plants has been rootless for the past 3 1/2 weeks already. It's just recently that this new growth ocurred but I'm going to put a plastic bag over it anyway.

[kmarch]

Thanks for the sphag&bag advice. In the future I won't be so worried about losing new growth to sphag&bag technique. Do you treat with Physan or anythign like that when you sphag&bag?

[sandra]

Although the roots have begun developing, I still want to encourage more rooting and hydration. I put sphag at the bottom of the bag. I'll uncover it by the weekend. Can't hurt at this point, can it?

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

What ever you do, do not use hormones. My experience is that rooting hormes have the exact opposite effect on sympodials and will stop rooting and make the plant put out more growths if the hormone gets on the rhyzome.

Kevin, I only recently started to use systemic fungicides, so yes, I do now, but most of my experience is without fungicides and the plants don't rot unless rot was already present in the plant. I think systemic fugicides are a very good idea, since the plants come out of the bag very tender and can secumb to fungal problems after being removed from the bag and are asked to handle a great deal lower humidity than they were used to in the bag.

[jerrymeola]

I was on vacation when you sent me the private message to see this thread. Sorry the advice is late, but it is encouraging.

I have mentioned before that in the far East some growers cut all the roots on Cattleya to encourage better growth.

I am trying to get enough photos of some of mine where I have cut everything to use as a tutorial.

You did right by cutting all the roots, the only thing you did wrong was worrying about it.

There are no roots on the old pseudobulbs. They are going to shrivel. There is nothing to give them water. They can not recover. They will never flower again, so it is no lose. The old back bulbs are mostly to store food and water for the new growth if in an emergency the plant needs it. Here it was needed.

All the old bulbs will continue to shrivel and eventually you will remove them in a future re-potting. The plant can come back even stronger then before and surprisingly they usually do not miss a flowering season.

It is not pretty to look at shriveling pseudobulbs, but realize this is nature at its finest and enjoy the marvel.

[jerrymeola]

I meant to add that when I cut all the roots I just use a pot clip to attach the plant to the top of the medium and let it go.

I can not consider 'sphag and bag' as it is too time consuming for commercial applications (but it works). I just want to point out that it is not as critical as you might think.

I purchased 150 overgrown plants in various stages of rot last year and the ones so bad I cut all the roots had a better survival rate than the ones I tried to save too many roots. (total survival of all plants was 99% for all roots cut and 92% for the others.

[sandra]

Life is good again. Thank you Jerry and Kevin and everybody for all the advice you've given here.

[tom499]

Most has already been said But my tip would be keep the plant as still as possible in the pot. As you've got it in bark, the new roots can be sometimes damaged by the bark moving when you move the pot, water etc. Just check its firm so as the new roots grow they wont get damaged and slow growth.

I had this problem with an onc. i bought in medium bark chips. Its flowering so i cant do anything yet, but i have to becareful moving it because it wobbles and the little roots get knocked about.

[sandra]

It's been well over a month since I posted this thread but seeing it's been opened again, I'm glad to say this plant is doing beautifully now. It's anchored nice and tight in the pot, the roots are taking off, 2 new large ps.bulbs, 2 half-way there and 2 more now growing! My thumbs are turning green thanks to all the help I received from these super moderators, super prisana (the original catt lady!) and everyone else.

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

Sandra, are there a lot more new growths than you would normally expect? If so, that was probably the effect of putting rooting hormone on the rhizome. It has such a strong effect on starting new eyes sometimes, that the result is a new kind of problem, too many new growths for the plant to properly mature them, and the plant will take longer to bloom with the smaller growths. I think in general, hormone used on the most recent rhizome and washed off as soon as new growth is seen is OK.

[chefatplay]

Congrats, Sandra! I knew you could do it!

[orchid_girl]

I'm glad it worked out! Once it blooms please post the pics

[butt0n]

Hi all...I have a similar problem. No new growths now, but some from earlier this year. They're smaller and I just don't think I'm getting any new root growth. Also, no rot that I can see or smell. I don't want to lose them so would it be a good idea to repot?

[Tobi]

butOn,
Hi, what type of media are your Catts potted in? Are you growing them inside
or outside? I know you're on the west coast and I'm on the east side, but we've
an incredibly warm summer and early fall so far. I have mine potted in a mix of
medium bark, charcoal, and perlite. I have been using worm tea for about 2 1/2
months now and all my Cattleya alliance orchids are producing new growths
right now. I just repotted one that I got last month that was in a clay pot
becaue the leaves were getting a little shriveled and I couldn't judge its
proper watering conditions. About half the roots were in pretty bad shape
so I'm glad I repotted them in the mix I use.

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

First, some Catts produce roots very late in the progress of the new growths, so you may not really have a problem, so long as there are good roots on the older growths. Just be patient. A few Catts will start the roots on a new growth at the same time that this new growth starts another new growth, and every where in between. I know it is not what you would expect, but that is just the way some Catts are. That is why I always tell every one not to repot until you see the roots start on the latest growth. If you repot at any other time, your plant could be deficient in roots for a very long time if any damage is done to the old roots.

What ever you do, do not use rooting hormone any where near the rhizome, as I mentioned above, but want to make sure you know it. Your new growths may be smaller because:

The plant started too many new growths, more than it could mature properly.

Your plant is adjusting to its new environment.

Your new growths are not finished growing.

The plant is not getting enough light or some other culture is less than idea. However, this may not be a real problem, as many times a plant will adapt to less than perfect conditions, and just have smaller growths as a rule, and probably less flowers and smaller flowers, but keep functioning fairly well otherwise.

[butt0n]

I have this particular one potted in medium bark and I put sphag on top just to see if it would help keeping mosture in. I potted another catt in a similar way, however with that one, I took off a lot of its dead roots...almost didn't have any. But now, that catt is growing like crazy with new roots everywhere. I'm thinking I'm gonna repot this other one and do something similar since I had good luck with it.

[PhalPal]

Sandra you are so right about Californians not having a clue about humidity. 40% and we are miserable. However, I did live in the south for four years and it was a heat/humidity experience I will never soon forget!

I swear, swear, I will post a tutorial on my Orchid ICU method when I get more advice on how to post pictures more easily. (new thread) I used a plastic dome used for seedlings and put moss on the floor of it. It measured about 16" x 8". I put my potted phal (coir mix) inside the unit and watered and misted with worm tea exclusively. This phal had NO roots, floppy leaves, and I had indeed thrown it away, only to fish it out of the trash a few hours later. Within a month it was sprouting roots galore and I now also have three new leaves. My theory is the larger unit provided more air circulation and the worm tea kept any fungus from developing. Sprag and bag always left me with a soggy, rotted mess. This method was very easy and I liked that I could watch what was going on with my phal.

[Nancy]

My cattleya is potted in medium fir bark and perlite. It is in the process of growing a new growth but there is no root growth whatsoever that I can see from the plant. What would be the best temperature to keep it at? Also, should it go back in the bag and sphag even though it has a growth coming? Sandra, you did so well with yours. Can you give me a little of your magic touch?

[sandra]

Nancy, I am far from knowing enough about Catts. to give the best advice here but I can tell you that Catts. can start to grow new psbulbs first, before any signs of new root growth. In fact, more times than not I noticed the psbulbs first.

[Nancy]

Sandra, can you post a recent picture of your catt? I'd love to see what it looks like with all the growth's coming. My little plant is back wwearing its plastic bag hat. I thought we had graduated from that. I think it will take about ten years to see this plant bloom. It is worth waiting for, though. After all, it's purple!

[sandra]

Sure Nancy, I'll take some pics tomorrow and post them here. I've had lots of growth with this Catt and have got 2 grown psbulbs with sheaths, fat and swollen but I doubt I'll get any buds. I definitely don't have enough light for them since Autumn and until April, they're in diffused light on the patio...sniffles.

Manana!

[tom499]

This thread is music to my ears

I recieved a Catt with no no good roots, I had to chop them all off, and its done as said here. The older growths are shrivelling but the newest still looks great. Just no roots.

I got a replacement plant which looks to be doing better, but if theres a chance to save the other I will keep going.

[articuno75]

Hi guys. My inherited Catt is going through the same thing and I finally made it put on a dunce bag hat too in a desperate measure to bring humidity levels up for it and get it to retain moisture. Thing is the little divides are not doing this to me.

[tom499]

Was that the huge plant you divided? It may well just be sulking, as it got quite a radical makeover.

Are there new growths on the sulking division?

[articuno75]

Originally Posted by tom499

Was that the huge plant you divided? It may well just be sulking, as it got quite a radical makeover.

Are there new growths on the sulking division?

Yes it is and there are new growths, but the psbulbs are really REALLY wrinkly. I mean raisin like. I've had some actually die and it's really stressed. I don't think it's getting enough moisture. It went through fungal issues and we conquered that, now this I want to cry The smaller divides are fine and are in a like supended animation.

[slippery_biscuit]

Here is another process to get those new roots out.

First, C. Percivaliana recently procurred, with the roots mostly gone. A year ago I would have been upset/angry, but not anymore.

Second, a mini purple with the new roots on the way. Not quite ready for mounting.

Last, the pot with a bunch of sphag in the bottom, kept quite moist. The plants just sit on top of it, and the pot forms a small "well" of good humidity.

"There are many paths through the woods."

[Orchid B me]

Wow, this is all good advise. If I may, mold/fungus starts in 48-72 hrs. Still air in a bag aswell a spag is a prime condition for fungal growth.

Due to my wife cutting my orchid funds, I have been buying bare root divisions. (check for viable eyes!) OK, so here I have many catts with no roots and raisns for PB. With bags came fungus and if no fungus the catts were eaten by bugs. What to do? What to do?

Use spag and perlight in a shallow tray add water about half way up after the spag has adsorbed its max retention. I use nursery trays but you can take about anything to create a way to suspend your bare roots inches above this humidity making mix. This will allow the orchid to breath yet receive const humidity. (be sure to add water when needed.) I also live in fla and we have our humidity! But the bare root orchids need more humidity than fla air can provide.

now I do use rooting hormone and yes it does bring many eyes to life and seems to slow down root formation but many will grow and few will abort. I do have luck bringing bare root divisions into well est. orchids not far from blooming stage this way. dont be discouraged if these new growths produce a bud sheath but no buds, this happens. the growth was to young thats all.

despite my wife buying shoes and what not with my orchid money, I can cont to add to my collection by spending less with bare root divisions. hehehehehe!!

[sandra]

Originally Posted by Orchid B me

Due to my wife cutting my orchid funds,

oooh, not nice Orchid B me.

Glad you posted here because I finally had a happy ending with this orchid and it's kind of nice to post the success I've had with this. It went on to bloom (just recently) for me and only because I changed it's location. Unfortunately, my growing area doesn't give off enough light and after much anguish over trying to do right for it, I finally moved it out of sight to a palm tree in the front of my house where it get's the light it needs. Unfortunately, I didn't expose it gradually but all at once, causing a couple of leaves to burn but overall it's got 2 blooms now, 2 more on the way and load of psbulbs beginning.

Someone here was recently asking about whether the psbulbs on their catt would plump up again, that they had shriveled. Well, this is the same Catt. as pictured in one of the top posts here...

[PhalPal]

It's beautiful Sandra! I have three Catts on a cork log on my patio and it didn't like the palm I had it attached to, too much light. I just moved it to another, larger palm where the NUMEROUS blooms (ha!!) I will have soon won't be quite so visible but nice none the less. It got very hot here last week and I had all I could do to not bring them inside. This is an experiment to see if they will adjust (the question really is, will I???) to growing outdoors. I can only hope for your success.

[evagentry]

Beautiful Sandra, and interesting from start to finish.

[Orchid B me]

Thats great! nice catt. glad it all worked out for you!

[berkeleysgr8]

I like that happy ending! I discovered that one of my small Catts had rotted roots this week. I've cut them off and now I'm waiting for the plant to do whatever it's going to do. In my case, the plant was in S/H and I was able to see the rot before there were any other signs. The plant still looks really healthy, so I'm very hopeful.