I hate spaghnum.

[Schlyne]

So my wonderful phal double spike Happy Valentine had a case of crown rot, and I took it over to the plant house today for an emergency repotting and to see if they had any other suggestions (and perhaps more suitable pots than what I had on hand).

I am SO BUMMED! I was just talking to the lincoln orchid society last night about how it would be one of the orchids I had that would still be in bloom in two weeks for the show. So it's now in a tiny pot with no leaves and we cut the spikes off.

It was in sphagnum when I got it, and i was tempted to repot it when I got it, but I was going to wait until after it was done blooming. (as per standard advice) The leaves looked great, until when I checked on it today and they were soft and mushy at the crown, which turned out to be wet from the spag underneath. It turned out that it looks like the plant was just dropped on, it had a ton of spah around it in a far larger pot than it needed and the spag inside was tightly packed and soaked like a sponge.

I've watered this plant once since I've gotten it. It's now in a clay orchid pot with fir bark. Any other suggestions for my poor phal?

[Anton]

I have returned some of my ailing Phals back to sphag and they are coming along in leaps and bounds.

The important thing with Phals is, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES WATER THE CROWN ! I spray my Phals, and if there are any drops of water that run down towards the crown, I soak them up with a soft clean cloth.

Don't over water sphag as it retains moisture for a while, just keep it moist, but not damp. Another thing you could do is to get some Superthrive and give it a dose of that to help it along.

I have done this with 3 of mine that were a bit poorly and they are starting to get stiff leaves again and growing a new leaf from the crown and shooting new roots, so, all good.

[kid a]

I used to spahgnum moss too for the same reason, well at least rotting the roots i never had crown rot knock on wood. But over time I kinda learned a better way to use it more loosley. Some thing don't do too well in it but some things i have found actually do awesome in it. It has its strengths as a medium I think for things like: potting up neofinetias in the traditional style on sphagnum mound, spahg n bag, things like masdies, restrepias, and seedling jewel orchids. I almost lost a bifrenaria and ended up potting it up in sphagnum and it grew two new growths and still is alive. So it has its applications and can work successfully when not jam packed in like sardines lol. I think the reasons people or companies pot them up so tightly like that is for added stability during shipping so they look great when they arrive to store shelves lol. I learned the hard way by loosing plants that were potted like before trying to find out why they kept dying lol. Unless I am buying from a orchid greenhouse that specialises in them I always unpot. I have even bought them in what looked like bark but then when I unpotted them there was a big old ball of sphagnum in the middle of the roots and they had rotted. If you can catch the plants pretty close to when they are put on the the shelves you usually don't have any issues if you can unpot and repot with less sphag or in a different mix. Phals are tough cookies and they can easily be repotted while in bloom and not have any consequences or flower loss as a result. I was worried about the flowers falling off but they didnt the first time i repotted while in bloom!

[FLBob]

Sphagnum moss gets a bad rap. Used correctly it is one of the best medium for growing seedlings, and many orchids that are not happy going dry.
All my Phals grow in Sphagnum.
I think other cultural issues are blamed on sphagnum
kid_a is correct, unless you are buying from a know good grower it does pay to repot a new orchid, just to make sure that your happy with how the plant potted.

Here's a shot of some of my Phals that have been happy in moss for several years. If there is a down side to sphagnum moss, it's that I do sometimes get a big fat snail taking up residence, and they like to eat phal leaves.

[digitalgate]

Even in tiny island of singapore . We can have 5 different kind of micro climate for orchid. I have learned that pure coconut husk is fantastic for my plant.Charcoal will be even better but growth will be slow. The fastest is Sphag moss but the plant can die for absolutely no reason from root rot to crown rot. So I my fair amount of experimenting with different media before settling in. Even rate of watering has to be taken in consideration with the weather. All my plant is at the mercy of the weather which i have no control. My place is great for Vanda and Dendrobium as it is hot and wet, Phal on the other hand need slightly cooler environment which can be a challenge for me.
So for a new guy , i would arm myself with a hydrometer, thermometer to control watering. For lighting a cheap cheap $30 light meter would suffice to ensure that i am doing the right thing. Otherwise your palm could provide a reasonable guage for the lighting in your area. A distinct shadow of my palm at a foot away from the plant would be it is light shade. A fuzzy shadow would be great for Phalaenopsis. Non shadow for even lower light requirement..

[Bolero]

Whilst I don't use it for Phals these days (I use it extensively for Masdevallias and Draculas) you cannot blame the medium for what happened to the plant. I have grown Phals in sphagnum before and never lost one to crown rot.

It comes down to watering according to your conditions and not watering in the crown as suggested above.

[Schlyne]

Well, after reading some of the other threads, I have just learned I over watered the plant when I watered it for a sphagnum pot. I watered it less often and less at once than I would have for the rest of my orchids in fir bark, but the center section of moss was holding water a lot more than the outer roll

I'm not saying I didn't screw up, and that spag doesn't have it's good sides, apparently I didn't get the spag next to the crown dry enough. I wipe down and dry out the the center section of all of my leaves when I water them to make sure I don't get a case of rot like that.

Lols. Acutally I don't hate spaghnum, I've just seen tightly packed spagh be deterimental to two phals now. It does wonders for packing humidity into hides for reptiles going into shed ...which is why I have it around the house in the first place

So superthrive? Any other suggestions? I was told to keep my newly repotted phal out of strong light for a few days as this has been a bit of a shock. It still has good roots on it, so hopefully it will make a come back

[mayres]

Whenever I read a post on this topic I get a kick out of all the responses!
I have a love/hate relationship with it myself. As noted by several others - USED PROPERLY with the right culture I believe it can be wonderful. More often than not it is used in settings where plants are not cared for properly with this type of media (potentially for weeks by people caring for these plants between the growers and ultimate purchasers). By the time the unsuspecting buyer purchases one they could be sorely abused and heading down the tubes underneath the top media line (roots) and then the owner wonders what did I do wrong (nothing) or states, "I hate sphag", when it is not the sphags fault. As noted above - I advise to repot EVERY PHAL regardless of previous owner and regardless of whether or not it is blooming as soon as you get it.
When I water all my 70+ phals I soak them with a watering can from the top - crowns and all - and NEVER attempt to dry them. No problem with crown rot. Do it early in the morning, keep your room warm, provide good air circulation = no problem. Ignore one of these three and you are asking for trouble. How do you think commercial growers water buildings with thousands upon thousands of phals - from the top - including the crowns. The crowns of the plants need to be dry by the time the temperature for the day begins to drop.

[orchidlover55]

I hope I am not butting in on Schlyne's thread but FLBob those phals are absolutely breath taking they are so beautiful. I love the live moss you have them in. That just sets it off . Thanks for posting the pictures it helps us see how pretty moss can be.
Schlyne-I use moss for some of my phals, and it does good,especially if you have bought one and the roots are not too strong. I have good luck with it. The crown rot came from leaving water in the crown too long I would think. Sorry that happen to you that is a bummer.

[kid a]

FLBob yours have tons of leaves! All mine only have three to five lol Nice lookin plants fo sho!

[Schlyne]

You know, i may have jumped the gun in my newbieness by stating crown rot. I had mushy leaf sections next to the crown and mushy crown....that is the beginning of crown rot right? It's still green. I mean I touched the leaves and they came right off. I can post a picture of the plant later so you can see what the poor plant looks like now. Bob, your plants look awesome.

[mehitabel]

Schlyne, sorry about the damage and potential loss of your beautiful phal. I know it's not much comfort, but bad things of that kind have happened to most of us.

You have good advice from Mayres about repotting phals when you get them, and about making sure any water on the plant has dried before the temperature drops. Good advice from FlBob and Orchidlover on some of the good uses for sphag.

I would just like to add a little to Mayres' remarks about repotting. It's not just the tight packing of the sphag that's the problem. I would bet a lot that the salt levels in that kind of pot is extremely high-- high enough to be poisonous to the roots. Orchid roots are extremely sensitive to accumulated fertilizer salts. The recommendations to leach a pot by letting pure water run thru copiously every third or fourth watering is to get rid of these salts. As the salts accumulate, the sphag starts to decay and to hold more and more water and less and less air.

The trouble with sphag is that when it starts to decay, it goes downhill very fast. In those tight sleeves like the one yours came in, with the tight packed sphag, and the old, old sphag in the middle, it just isn't possible to leach those salts out with watering. Repotting is a way of getting your new plant in a medium that you know works well with your conditions and watering habits. But it's also a way of getting rid of that poisonous, salt-saturated old medium and getting it into new, fresh medium.

High quality, clean, moist sphag is nothing like that heavy, sodden, khaki mess. Clean new sphag holds both air and water. That mess is decomposed, bacteria-laden, salt-saturated stuff that doesn't hold any air. It smothers and poisons the roots. That's why repotting a new plant is a good idea-- the old medium is often too old and rotten.

Anyway, good luck.

[lmartiny]

I have trouble regulating spag so I use a bark mix.

[Schlyne]

Well, this is a badly lit bathroom photo of the double spike flowers against the mirror on the 19th before all this happened...


Never mind the mottled leaf in the background. That belongs to my pahp.

[PhalPal]

There are many threads and opinions on sphagnum and repotting new plants. I always, always, always repot all my orchids within a few days of bringing them home. To wait until the blooms fade is too long to wait for fresh media. Just chalk this up to a lesson learned and repot your new orchids next time!
Also, from what I have heard about your orchid, I don't think anything will save it at this point. No leaves and a mushy crown is certain death. Sorry.

[Laura81]

The key is to use very LOOSELY packed sphagnum. I have a NOID grocery store phal that originally had almost no good roots left. I potted it in loose sphagnum in a small 4-inch clay pot. It is now putting out roots like crazy. I let it dry out almost completely before watering again. Sphagnum also has the advantage of being very easy to tell whether it is still wet or not. You can easily stick a finger down through the moss much easier than with bark mix.

[PhalPal]

Very good advice Laura!! I was one who hated sphagnum at one time and since have learned to love it. Nice fresh, loosly packed moss is perfect for seedlings and species phals. It is very easy to visualize how much water it is holding. I will try to find the latest thread on this very subject; it was full of great opinions and observations.

[kmarch]

If I may take the liberty of summarizing some of the major themes in this thread, I think it's worth noting:

1) It's not any particular medium that's the bad guy but rather the combination of medium with growing conditions and watering habits that is usually the culprit.

2) It's often a good idea to repot a newly purchased orchid as soon as possible. That way you know exactly what's inside the pot and how that medium will respond to your conditions and habits.

[plucker]

I use spagnum moss for catts and phals with success.

I dont fill the pot with spag, however I use a layered approach.
Foam at the bottom just to keep the base dry, lava rock to the half way mark, put a touch of spag in and put the plant in with spag all around.
The top layer I might or might not put fine rock to lock in moisture.

The plants decide if they like the dry or wet bits.

The phals are ready to be watered again when the spag on top is dry.
I wait a few days longer with the catts.

The spag is due for replacement or needs thinning when the water from the hose does not go through easy but pools on the top.

The root systems on my plants are always healthy and dont seem to get rot problems.

My plants are in the weather too so big wet seasons keep the spag wet for months and the plants thrive.

Some of my phals have suffered crown rot because of the rain so I have put a clear sheet of plastic over them to protect them.

I have recently repotted this one

[Schlyne]

Just to update, I checked on the happy valentine today and it is dead.

[tansyflower]

Sorry.

I don't have much luck with sphag either. I killed a whole flask of seedlings because I couldn't keep the sphag moist- it was either sopping wet or dry as a bone.

[Ben G]

so sad

[PhalPal]

We had the pleasure of having the owner of a VERY big phal nursery come to our local society meeting to talk about repotting phals. He could not stress enough how ridiculous he felt it was that we feel the need to repot a new phalaenopsis. There is no reason to, it's over-jealous, unnecessary, yada yada yada. "Here! he says....do this!!" He picks up the phal, plucks it into a larger pot and takes six seconds to pack more sphagnum around the edges. Done. He then continues to tell us yet again that there is no reason to, it's over-jealous, unnecessary, yada yada yada.
All I can say is he is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!! I don't care HOW big he is!!!!

[Ben G]

my grochery store orchid has one one half inch long root becus of tight packed spagnum

[kmarch]

I'm conducting a little experiment wiht sphagnum that I think may surprise some. I just started it about a month ago so want to wait just a bit longer before reporting any results but I just wanted ot offer up this teaser. tease, tease, tease....

[fred]

I look forward to your little experiment Kevin

for those that done know already I love sphagnum moss
I am lucky enough to get fresh sphag from the wild

I must admit I do not have any of my phals potted in sphag

I think the secret with sphag is learning how to use it as a medium

[Brooke]

I too await your experiment Kevin. I don't have a problem with sphag and love it. The problem comes from incorrect watering habits.

Most commercial growers using the hard packed sphag do it because they don't WANT to water very often. I heard one commerical phal grower who said he won't have to water for 3-4 weeks with the super tight sphag.

Connie I bet your speaker was at our club in September. Did he say he fertilized by spraying the plant rather than drenching the plant?

Brooke

[FLBob]

As a sphagnum advocate I can't wait to hear/see the results of your experiment Kevin.

For years I had mixed results trying to grow Phals in a bark mix, since moving to sphag my Phals are thriving.

[tizzycat]

Originally Posted by kmarch

I'm conducting a little experiment wiht sphagnum that I think may surprise some. I just started it about a month ago so want to wait just a bit longer before reporting any results but I just wanted ot offer up this teaser. tease, tease, tease....

Kevin, I'm itching to see the results.

I have not had much success with sphagnum moss, but I'e realised as Mike and Kevin have said that this is due to climate and growing conditions. In the UK I've found that the moss does not dry out quickly enough for phals.

[tizzycat]

Originally Posted by kmarch

I'm conducting a little experiment wiht sphagnum that I think may surprise some. I just started it about a month ago so want to wait just a bit longer before reporting any results but I just wanted ot offer up this teaser. tease, tease, tease....

Kevin, I'm itching to see the results.

I have not had much success with sphagnum moss, but I've realised as Mike and Kevin have said that this is due to climate and growing conditions. In the UK I've found that the moss does not dry out quickly enough for phals. I do however, have my Ceologyne Fimbriata in a mix of bark and sphag and they seem to like it.

[syndywindy]

Kevin, I'll be very interested in seeing your results. I'm always amazed when buying a new orchid from the big box stores how much sphag is crammed into those pots. It's no wonder these go downhill to unsuspecting buyers.

[PhalPal]

Brooke I don't remember anything about fertilizing, but he was the owner of a large, old nursery that has the same name as a famous beach in Los Angeles where a lot of movie stars live. I think these really big nursery guys simply are not in touch with how the average home grower grows their plants. I mean, I can get in front of a bunch of home growers in Peoria and tell then how to grow cymbidiums outdoors and how I don't think it is good for the orchid to bring them inside at all, but that would mean I have no concept of their climate and growing conditions.

BTW - I love sphagnum as long as I use the beloved skewer method. It's a great medium if used fresh and lightly packed as well as closely monitored watering practices. That's a lot coming from a person who started a thread about a year ago ranting about how much i hate sphagnum!

[Brooke]

Connie I thought it might have been Norman Fang. I was lucky enough to have him visit us in the g/h while he was here. It is scary when someone with his reputation opens the door to hand deliver you plants.

The one thing he told me that really surprised me was most of his fertilizing is done by foliar application. He said he hasn't had to use fungicides for years. I'm starting to do more foliar fertilizing besides just on my mounts. My mounts always have very shiny clean foliage while my potted plants get a grunge on them that has to be washed off, not just watered off.

Brooke

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by kmarch

I just started it about a month ago....

Well time flies when you're having fun. I just looked it up and realized my little experiment has been going for nearly 4 months now... I dont' know WHERE the time goes.

Originally Posted by FLBob

I can't wait to hear/see the results of your experiment Kevin.

Originally Posted by Brooke

I too await your experiment Kevin.

Originally Posted by tizzycat

Kevin, I'm itching to see the results.

Originally Posted by syndywindy

Kevin, I'll be very interested in seeing your results.

I didn't anticipate this generating such a buzz, but since there's an interest, I'll go ahead and spill some of the beans early.

I am experimenting with growing a vanda in sphagnum. WHAT!?!?!?! A VANDA!?!?!?! Yes, let me explain: Summers here in Melbourne are dry, extremely dry. It's not uncommon for us to have summer days where the relative humidity is less than 10%. Vandas like a fair bit of humidity with their preference being up around 80%. I have has good success with the one vanda (Ascocenda Gail Noyes - pictured here in a previous flowering) I've had for the last 4 years now. I grow it in a clear plastic pot in large bark but I have wondered if it might do better with more humidity and moisture at its roots.

So I thought to myself....hmmmmm, how to increase humidity at the roots without actually keeping them wet. I noticed that when i get plants in the mail they are sometimes wrapped in moist (not drenched) sphagnum to keep the roots moist without drenching them. So I bought a NBS vanda , potted it loosely in sphagnum, very loosely, and we're seeing how it goes. So far so good. After a watering the roots stay bright green for about a day then light green for about 2 days and by the the mix has gone dry and I water again. The plant is growing but there is no new root growth yet. I won't feel confident with this method until I start to see some root growth. But so far the roots do stay slightly damp for a while and look just like they do after a dunking. It'll be interesting to see hot it goes over the long haul.

[PhalPal]

Kevin are you growing your vanda inside or out??? I would love to have a vanda or two but my climate is very similiar to yours and I don't want to struggle. I would love it if you could come up with something that would at least give me a chance. Go Kevin!!!

[PhalPal]

Originally Posted by Brooke

Connie I thought it might have been Norman Fang. I was lucky enough to have him visit us in the g/h while he was here. It is scary when someone with his reputation opens the door to hand deliver you plants.

Wow now THAT'S cool!!! Norman's greenhouses are maybe 45 minutes from me. I have been to a few of his open houses and a representative of his talked to my OS because he was out of town. I have never had the pleasure of him walking into my backyard to deliver a phal!!! If Norman says foliar feed, I just may give foliar feeding more of a effort than I am now!!!

BTW - for anyone who has not had the pleasure of meeting Norman Fang, he is one of the nicest and most generous orchid people out there. He donates a large portion of our auction plants every year and to many other clubs, I am sure. On the night he could not be at our meeting he offered to pay 1/2 of the AOS fee for anyone who joined the AOS that night. That is $30 a person and a very generous offer. Brooke is very special to have him in her greenhouse!!

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by PhalPal

Kevin are you growing your vanda inside or out???

Outside. It's in my shade house which I heat in winter to keep it no less than about 15C (60F).

[davetheorchidaddict]

I am not a fan of spahgnum moss but having learned when and how to use it I do use more. It is not for all plants but those who thrive in it do a good in it. I also do not pack it as tight as growers who make it so water will not flow through it.

[Brooke]

Kevin I believe you will be successful with your method. If the current roots are doing great eventually you will get new ones.

Connie I'm not special but I know someone who is Our friend we are babysitting orchids for arranged for Norman to speak at our club and then took him to Cincy to speak the next night. Of course he brought plants for sale but if we had a preference we could pre-order to make sure we got what we needed The personal delivery was a great surprise. Needless to say, I would have not been in an old tee shirt and cut off's and might have actually applied a little make up. It was fun to discuss orchids with him and the talk he gave to the club was great.

The old saying of it's not what you know but who you know certainly applied here.

Brooke

[FLBob]

Kevin, along the same line - I have a small vanda that had one small root. I could not keep it hydrated and it was in decline. I secured it in a 3" wooden basket and placed sphag in the basket. It's been about 6 months and the plant is now securely attached to the basket and the plant has added new leaves. While I never have to deal with humidity much below 50%, I do believe if I hadn't placed the sphag around the base of the plant, the plant would have died.

[dtje2000]

Originally Posted by Brooke

Connie I bet your speaker was at our club in September. Did he say he fertilized by spraying the plant rather than drenching the plant?

The one thing he told me that really surprised me was most of his fertilizing is done by foliar application. He said he hasn't had to use fungicides for years. I'm starting to do more foliar fertilizing besides just on my mounts. My mounts always have very shiny clean foliage while my potted plants get a grunge on them that has to be washed off, not just watered off.

Brooke, when I fertilize I do so with a two-gallon pressure sprayer and give the whole plant a good spray. Is that what you are talking about as opposed to...what, sitting the plant in something and pouring the fert/water through the pot?

[Brooke]

Yes the foliar feeding I do is done with a pressurized pump sprayer on my mounts. The pots I water with a hose and fertilize from a watering can. I never share water between plants. I am now trying the foliar feeding on the potted plants.

Brooke