I am starting to freak out!

[Shannara]

I just found 3 more orchids dying or dead. It is happening so fast! I am checking every day and I don't know what to do. One was being treated for scale and just fell apart today when I went to look at it. I don't see black rot...it may have had another kind of rot that wasn't as noticable to me. One is a brand new chid (Catt) and clearly has black rot. There nothing left on it to even save. The last one is a Renanthera that the top two leaves have rotted out. Not sure if this is black rot or not.

In the past few days I have cut bacterial brown spots off of almost 10 chids who were all then treated with Phyton and put on my porch for a couple days to ensure they were drying out. It hasn't rained heavy since last Monday and the only time I watered was to fertilize on either Saturday or Sunday.

What on earth do I do at this point? Do I need to spray everything with Phyton? I admit I am feeling a bit panicky and paranoid that I am going to lose a bunch of my chids if I don't do something...I just don't know what that something should be.

*Help*

Shann~

[janet_a]

first, somebody tell me if i'm making this up: aren't dendrobia sensitive to copper fungicides? (phyton is copper based)

second, yes, you may need to spray the whole collection. do you have any physan?

[Shannara]

I have both Physan and Phyton. I read an article I saw somewhere posted on geeks (a link to an article) that Phyton was better for active bacterial/fungal infections and Physan was better for preventative or even sanitizing of an area. I can't say whether this is true or not based on experience. I used the Phyton on some that were affected with black rot recently and one is getting better. I use the Physan when I water in newly repotted chids or to clean a bench area that had a plant with black rot.

I just don't know what to do at this point and I am afraid of making it worse by watering them again to apply another treatment.

Shann~

[BGGraham1]

I looked this up on the AOS website, and there was a lot of information, but I don't know what applies in your case. I sent you a PM.

[koshki]

Per the Phyton 27 instruction sheets in the phytotoxicity section, "one grower reported an unusual reaction on a particular type of Dendrobium (lautoria). The situation involved application of Phyton-27 on a wide variety of orchids. The application was made approximately 24 hours after Cygon 2E insecticide was applied. Only the one type of dendrobium was affected. None of the other orchids were affected including other types of dendrobiums and more sensitive genera such as zygopetalum. The reaction was noticed approximately a week after the Phyton-27 application. Fully formed, but not hardened off, leaves showed cell tissue collapse. Leaves that were hardened off and meristematic tissue were not affected."

I'm just reporting what the sheet says. I sprayed all of my dendrobiums a couple weeks ago and none have shown any damage. I don't have a lautoria.

[Dendian]

I guess you just have to do what you can do. I think I would water the ones you are concerned about and then treat them with the Phyton 27 (Catt Alliance, Dens an Oncs.. dunno about rest)...

I had a few treated for scale that just fell apart too - I think the scale sucked the life out of them and then the treatment shocked it and that's all she wrote.

Black rot is evil, it moves really quickly. I lost two more to it a few days ago. They were not being watered because they were recovering from scale treatment too.. and then when I watered them they just disolved.

I am gearing up for a full scale dunk of ALL the orchids in the front sunroom - the scale has come back again on some treated plants, and some previously un-affected plants now have it. They got watered today- tomorrow I start the spray/dunk/repot as necessary... ICK!

[Shannara]

Thanks you guys for your input, information, and help.

I decided to spray the whole lot of them down with Phyton at a higher strength than before but still within the directions parameters for what is acceptable. I think the dosage I did before was way to low. I created a huge area on my porch with with several fans going for my chids to dry in that has a bunch of airflow.

All of the smaller chids are in the porch now under fans (well over 100 chids). The largest plants are still outside but if rain threatens tomorrow they are coming in too. All of the hanging orchids will stay outside...they have the best location in terms of air flow. Two of my new Vandas from Carmelas were losing a number of their lower leaves...not sure whats going on there but they were sprayed and brought in to be kept under close observation.

I have thoroughly sweated through my clothes in the past two hours of spraying and moving orchids so I am going to hit the showers! Then I have to cook something for dinner.

Keep your ideas and suggestions coming. Anything to keep my mind occupied and not worrying to death over my chids.

Originally Posted by Dendian

I guess you just have to do what you can do. I think I would water the ones you are concerned about and then treat them with the Phyton 27 (Catt Alliance, Dens an Oncs.. dunno about rest)...

I had a few treated for scale that just fell apart too - I think the scale sucked the life out of them and then the treatment shocked it and that's all she wrote.

Black rot is evil, it moves really quickly. I lost two more to it a few days ago. They were not being watered because they were recovering from scale treatment too.. and then when I watered them they just disolved.

I am gearing up for a full scale dunk of ALL the orchids in the front sunroom - the scale has come back again on some treated plants, and some previously un-affected plants now have it. They got watered today- tomorrow I start the spray/dunk/repot as necessary... ICK!

Good luck with your scale battle. The only thing that ever gets rid of it for me is that Bayer 3 in 1. Really anything with imidacloprid is helpful.

Shann~

[dounoharm]

hard as it seems, and i know you guys like using the home remedies, but for scale particularly and other insideous varmints, you must get the big guns out and uses a systemic....for those with plants in the house, you take the plants to the garage and put em in a huge plastic bag and spray em....but you must do it once every two weeks for 4 treatments then once a month for another 4 treatments, then every couple months to forever rotating with sevin/insecticidal soap....you are just spinning your wheels and going in circles when you try to kill them gently....scale can decimate a collection and is responsible for spreading disease as well....dont tolerate it....my opinion....gl

[JLu]

I'm not keen on long distance diagnosis of problems, but in this case I believe you will find dounoharm to be 100% correct.....you have classic symptoms of scale and they will continue to kill plants until you do something besides spraying essentially useless remedies. You need to get a good systemic insecticide and do it quickly.

Safari will kick their cans,, but it is expensive at about $399. half gallon. You don't use much but you still have to put out a bunch of money. A considerably cheaper alternative in the same chemical class is Merit (Imidiclopid) which is one of the active ingredients in Bayer Rose and Flower Insect Spray. The good things about this product is it also contains cyfluthrin which is a good contact killer of scale, it is reasonably priced, relatively safe versus a lot of other things, and readily available at Lowes in already to use sprayer or as a concentrate for tree use. The Merit part of the formula is a systemic so the contact wipes out most of the bugs and the Merit gets the remainder.

Like I said, long distance pest diagnosis is not perfect, but it is the right time of year and the damage you have sounds like scale. It's not the time for timid action...actually it's never the time for timid action. When things go wrong they need correction and if you have scale as bad as it sounds you need to git er done.

[Mira-Claude]

I know here some plants that are more sensitive to heat developed a kind of brown rot on leaves. It kills them fast and nothing I did worked so far. Physen seemed to make it worse. Cutting the rotting part out noneffective. It doesn't seem to spread threw all the plants. But to be careful we isolated the affected ones. I do not know what caused it or how, but it is damaging.

[Dendian]

Yes, I intend to dunk/spray them with the Bayer All-In-One.. just as I did last time. But I didn't repeat it at the two week intervals and that's why its coming back... ... I also didn't treat the ones that didn't show any sign of scale, but it was hiding there too. Now the gloves are going on - and I intend to re-treat at regular intervals.

[JLu]

Dian, the Bayer All-In-One product should work fine and I admit to occasionally using it. My problem with it is that it is all-in-one containing insecticide (Merit), fungicide (Tebuconazole), and fertilizer. IMHO it's best to treat with what is needed for a current problem or a current set of conditions rather than the shotgun approach.

I have my own fertilizer regimen that works great so I do not wish to use Bayers. The use of fungicide (especially a targeted one like tebuconazole) on a regular and unnecessary basis is the creation of resistant strains of fungi. This can happen with modern targeted insecticides too. These new products are great...they are less toxic to the user and damaging to the environment that older broad spectrum products, but as a result they attack single biological pathways in the target organism and are thus more susceptible to resistance occurring.

Again, IMHO it is best to determine the problem (when possible) and choose the right product to fix it without adding other stuff to the mix. That's why I prefer the individual Bayer products over the mixed ones. Bayer has done a horrible job with the product naming and renaming. I have to stand in Lowes and read every label to get the product I want every time I buy one. Some marketing genius is ruining a good line of hobbyist products with consumer confusion. One other caution...the Bayer products are readily available and available in reasonable sizes and prices and work OK.....but they are not always the best choice available. There are some extremely good (usually expensive) insecticides and fungicides on the market. It's worth looking at Rosemania just to read their recommendations for usage of exotic products. They also usually offer the smallest packaging of some of these that is available anywhere along with useful safety information.

[Dendian]

Aaah, thank you for that information.

I also had another recommendation for using the Bayer Advanced Complete Insect Killer (for soil and turf but also says flowers and roses) from a speaker at our Orchid Club meeting, that one is the one that contains Imidacloprid and ß-cyfluthrin - which are both insecticides - and no fungicides.

I think I will use that instead of the All-In-One because the All-In-One says to pour at the base and does not say to spray on the leaves (where those suckers are hiding) - and I had some leaf burn/root burn when I used the All-In-One on certain orchid plants. It also does not contain the ß-cyfluthrin which you say works well on scale. It also says it is o.k. to spray on the leaves.

I am checking out the information you suggested - but I want to get er done today when I have some time...

[rcb]

Dian, I rotate the Bayer Complete Insect Killer and Sevin. Just used Sevin this morning. Sevin is not systemic though.

BTW, completely agree with everything JLu wrote.

Shann, wondering if the plastic covering encouraged the rot, as air flow is important. I don't use any fungicide at all, never. If I get it (rare) I cut.

I'm wondering if I don't fungus or bacteria rots very often because of my high air flow and that I push the light levels on all my plants? Not sure. But even in the winter when it's cold (40s and 30s at night) and it rains at night, I still rarely get any type of fungus or rot.

[janet_a]

so is this soft scale we're talking about?

[ChryssM]

I agree with Renee and haven't had any fungus/rot problems since I installed a ceiling fan in both of my chids's rooms and they've been on 24/7 ever since, KOW !!!

If I ever had a nemesis it's MITES !!! So, I'll pass on this scale talk.

[Dendian]

I am fighting the soft white scale that you can smush off with your fingers - not the hard brown stuff.

[JLu]

Dian, there is concentrate of that product called (Last time I looked) Tree and Shrub insect control but I just looked at the most recent bottle and it's called Complete Insect Killer Soil and Turf concentrate. You have to dilute it into your own sprayer. I use 1/2 to 1 oz./ gal.

All these products work best at 5-6 pH which is convenient because that is the pH of distilled, RO, or rain water saturated with CO2 (which it always is). Distilled water is about 60 cents /gal at Walmart.

[11Orchid126]

Bayer Rose and Flower Insect Spray really works. Use it once every seven days, three times.

For the black rot, you might consider using full strength hydrogen peroxide several times, three days or so apart. You can pour it over the plant and on the medium.

[Dendian]

Thank you again.

The Complete Insect Killer is the product I am using - at the 1 tbsp/gallon rate (1/2 oz).

I just tested my tap water (undrinkable ditch water) and it reads below 6.8 (which is as low as that pool tester will go).. so I think that it will be ok. I have about 400 orchids to do... I've done about 20 big ones so far....

[Shannara]

Originally Posted by rcb

Shann, wondering if the plastic covering encouraged the rot, as air flow is important. I don't use any fungicide at all, never. If I get it (rare) I cut.

I'm wondering if I don't fungus or bacteria rots very often because of my high air flow and that I push the light levels on all my plants? Not sure. But even in the winter when it's cold (40s and 30s at night) and it rains at night, I still rarely get any type of fungus or rot.

Hey Renee,

I only covered that one day with the plastic and haven't covered since. The orchid I found yesterday with black rot wasn't even here yet when the tables were covered. It has only been outside since last week which is why I was so shocked that it contracted black rot that quickly! We had one downpour last week that it was exposed to but other than that it actually has been much better here in terms of rainfall. I have had to to cut several leaves in the past week with mushy brown spots. I used sterilized scissors and cinnamon on the wound and put the orchids on my porch near fans for several days before they went back out.

I wish I knew how to prevent this problem but since I am not sure where I went wrong I just feel kinda panicked. When black rot happens on my smaller orchids they are dead before I even see it. If you think running an extension cord outside and pointing large fans on my orchid tables will help the situation then I am more than willing to do that. I had always figured that since they are in the great outdoors they were getting enough but maybe not?

Right now all of the plants from the tables are on my porch with several fans creating a really good breeze over all of them. I plan on using Physan on the tables to disinfect them before I move the orchids back out. I also may be getting a carpenter to help me make rain hoodies for my benches that will not prevent air flow but could cut down on rain exposure, but we shall see.

As to the light levels I would say most are getting very high light and sun exposure, but so far the orchids that have contracted the rot have been on the lower areas of my orchid tables...maybe these areas are too stagnant and shaded?

I appreciate your ideas and advice,
Shann~

[BGGraham1]

Hi Shann.

I was wondering if the splashing water from the rain could have been a factor. I read that that is one way the rot could spread.

Does it seem that the affected plants were close to each other, or were they on different spaces on your benches?

[Shannara]

Originally Posted by BGGraham1

Hi Shann.

I was wondering if the splashing water from the rain could have been a factor. I read that that is one way the rot could spread.

Does it seem that the affected plants were close to each other, or were they on different spaces on your benches?

The first group affected were near each other. The Laelia that had the black rot, which had progressed throughout the entire plant, had dripped water down on the orchids below and two of those plants contracted rot also. Several others that contracted it though were no where near these. Since several have had it I will be treating the tables before the orchids go back out just to be safe. Splashing water is definately a concern when it comes to these kinds of problems.

Shann~

[koshki]

Shann, I don't really have any good advice for you, but I just wanted to say that I am really sorry this is happening to you. I know you love your orchids, and this must be heartbreaking to witness.

That said, if I were in your situation, I'd pull out the biggest guns I could find. I would consider this "intense disease pressure" and follow the guidelines accordingly.

[Shannara]

Originally Posted by koshki

Shann, I don't really have any good advice for you, but I just wanted to say that I am really sorry this is happening to you. I know you love your orchids, and this must be heartbreaking to witness.

That said, if I were in your situation, I'd pull out the biggest guns I could find. I would consider this "intense disease pressure" and follow the guidelines accordingly.

Thank you Katherine. I am trying to be proactive about this or it can get me down. I really want to do right by my chids and whenever one dies I feel terrible, but also want to learn what went wrong so I can try and prevent the same problem. I am going to look at fans tonight at a local box store to see what ideas I can come up with.

I also want to utilize that plastic I bought by creating hoods for my orchid tables that I can drop on or take off that won't prevent airflow but will cut down on rain exposure during these long summer rains. I really want a greenhouse though. That would help give be better control over their growing environment and get them through the winter better than in the garage.

Again thanks,
Shann~

[orchids4me]

Good luck shann!!
I'd be flipping out also. This is a very informative thread

[Shannara]

I just got back from the store and found two large oscillating fans that have an adjustable height and a large base for stabilization. They really seem capable of doing the job as far as inscreasing air flow. The highest setting puts out a pretty powerful blast of air and they have a fairly large range of movement. They only had the two floor models left so I was given $3 dollars off each one and bought them both for just under 50 dollars!

Anytime I water, or it rains, I will put these out to help dry all the orchids on the tables where I seem to be having the biggest issue with getting the plants to dry. Right now they are on the porch and I can see quite a breeze is going through my chids! Now, other than drying my plants out, there isn't a downside to too much airflow is there? LOL

Thanks you guys for letting me vent my worries.

Shann~

[koshki]

Have you cleaned the tables themselves? Just a thought...

[rcb]

Originally Posted by Shannara

Hey Renee,


I wish I knew how to prevent this problem but since I am not sure where I went wrong I just feel kinda panicked. When black rot happens on my smaller orchids they are dead before I even see it. If you think running an extension cord outside and pointing large fans on my orchid tables will help the situation then I am more than willing to do that. I had always figured that since they are in the great outdoors they were getting enough but maybe not?

Shann~

Shann, yes I would think with them being outside the airflow should be enough but....

Also, I don't stack my benches (except for one group) so that if one is diseased it doesn't drip on the other one. Not just rot, but virus too can be transferred.

I would suggest when you are ready to set them back out, clean those benches with the big gun - bleach not physan. I know they are wood and they will be bleached out by the bleach but......

[Shannara]

Originally Posted by koshki

Have you cleaned the tables themselves? Just a thought...

Originally Posted by rcb

Shann, yes I would think with them being outside the airflow should be enough but....

Also, I don't stack my benches (except for one group) so that if one is diseased it doesn't drip on the other one. Not just rot, but virus too can be transferred.

I would suggest when you are ready to set them back out, clean those benches with the big gun - bleach not physan. I know they are wood and they will be bleached out by the bleach but......

I have bleached all the tables/benches this afternoon. I have my two new fans out there blowing up a great breeze that is drying everything up very nicely. I am going to move the orchids on my porch back out this evening after the sun has set and water them tomorrow.

Disinfecting the benches was a great suggestion. Thanks you two!

Shann~

[jannypan]

I used the Phyton on some that were affected with black rot recently and one is getting better.

[Shannara]

So the fans have been going since I watered earlier. I move them from time to time but they seem to be doing a great job so far. They have a very nice oscillating range so they cover large areas.



Shann~

[ARodney]

Hopefully you were able to nip it in the butt. Good luck

[dounoharm]

oh please tell me the progression has halted! how are things going now?, looks like a good setup....and i would spray everything again with the phyton in a week or two....just to make sure....gl

[Shannara]

Originally Posted by dounoharm

oh please tell me the progression has halted! how are things going now?, looks like a good setup....and i would spray everything again with the phyton in a week or two....just to make sure....gl

So far only one other of the Laelias shows rot but honestly something was off about this one when it arrived (a couple weeks ago). The new growth was not right and deteriorated slowly and now appear to have rot. I think the new growth was bent badly in shipping and opened it up to infection.

I had to water them today though...it had been a few days. I kept the fans going until rain threatened. Luckily it didn't end up raining. I will report back if anything else goes amiss but for now I am attacking this rot with my fans to see if this solves the problem. Go fans!!

I really appreciate your concern and help!

Shann~

[koshki]

Originally Posted by Shannara

Go fans!!

And Shann!

[Shannara]

Update for you guys.

I have found two more orchids with black rot. I can't deal with this mess anymore on my own. I am sending several samples to an IFAS Plant Research Facility tomorrow for analysis. I talked to the gentleman who would be performing the diagnosis and he is going to help me figure out what treatment I need to perform to help eradicate this issue. I have a feeling I am dealing with more than one kind of rot here as some are presenting themselves to me differently in how the plant is dying off.

One of my spectabiles (alba), a completely rotted Catt, a chunk from the Encyclia I found today, and possibly one other diseased plant are going to be bagged up individually and mailed overnight tomorrow. Possibly even today if I can make it to the UPS store before they close.

I am really upset to say the least. I don't even like going outside to see my orchids because I am afraid of what I will find. I am paranoid to water them and encourage more rot. If I can't get a handle on this I don't know what I am going to do. My orchids are usually an outlet for my stress but now they have become a major source of my stress. I am determined to be proactive about this. Regardless if they are stressing me right now I have to find a way to resolve this issue.

I will let you all know what the findings are on my orchids. I am trying to find the positive in this even though it is really upsetting me. The only positive I can find about this situation is to remind myself that this a learning experience that will help me be a better caretaker for the rest of my orchids. I am not sure if I have convinced myself of that yet...

Wish me luck!

Shann~

[BGGraham1]

Shann, I hope it was just a fluke thing that came up. You are so brilliant with your orchids, so it had to be just nature.

Good luck with the testing. I know we will all be waiting to hear how it went.

[Shannara]

Originally Posted by BGGraham1

Shann, I hope it was just a fluke thing that came up. You are so brilliant with your orchids, so it had to be just nature.

Good luck with the testing. I know we will all be waiting to hear how it went.

Thanks Brigitte! I was able to get up to the store today before the truck came to pick up the packages so they will have 4 plant samples arrive tomorrow. I am hopeful they will be able to help guide me in the right direction on how to treat this situation.

Again...thanks for the kind words.

Shann~

[NancyG]

good luck, hope they can help you figure out what is going on

[Dendian]

Originally Posted by Shannara

If I can't get a handle on this I don't know what I am going to do. My orchids are usually an outlet for my stress but now they have become a major source of my stress. I am determined to be proactive about this. Regardless if they are stressing me right now I have to find a way to resolve this issue.
Shann~

You are doing what you need to do - you have done what you know to do - and are now asking for specific technical help - sounds to me like you have a handle on it

I wish you the best of luck and appreciate you keeping us updated on the situation. Something you learn may someday help somebody else.. and it WILL make you a smarter orchid momma!

[koshki]

Shann, I woke up this morning wondering how things were going for you, hoping to hear a better report.

But you are so clever...I don't know if I would have thought to call in experts like you have. Good luck, and here's to finding out the solution!

[janet_a]

Could it be something in/on the trees dripping onto your plants?

[katrina]

Oh Geez! I feel so bad for you. I hadn't dropped in to this thread lately and I didn't know it had taken such a turn. I totally understand your panic...I'd be in a tizzy myself. Hard to find the positive when you're in the throws of a situation like this but you are right...some where down the line this will have made you a better grower. Hard to see that "down the line" right now...but keep your chin up.

I'll be hoping they can figure it out and give you some clear direction on what to do.

I won't let so much time go before checking back next time. Lots of luck and healthy orchid vibes being sent your way.

[Filb]

I guess I have nothing else to offer other than empathy.
I hope the black rot situation gets remedied ASAP!!
I am sending all my well-wishings your way!

[Shannara]

You guys are the best support group!

Just knowing you all understand how upsetting this has been is very comforting. This week has been more than a bit stressful and this situation isn't helping. I used to work at a plant nursery for many years and was aware that plants could be sent off for culture to certain facilities to help identify diseases and treatments. You have a pay a fee for the service but I am okay with that if it saves my orchids.

Originally Posted by janet_a

Could it be something in/on the trees dripping onto your plants?

Anything is possible at this point. I even considered the fact that my garden hose could be the culprit. It lays on the ground when not in use and is exposed to flooding waters when it rains heavily. I plan to thoroughly bleach the sprayer inside and out before I use it again and try and keep it away from the ground.

It hasn't rained recently and I am going to have to water tomorrow or risk losing plants from dehydration. I am nervous about it but it's gotta be done.

Thanks again for all of the kind words and well wishes. Any ideas about what I could have overlooked in this situation are welcome.

Shann~

[plantloverlisa]

Shann, so sorry that it is not resolved yet. I so understand after dealing with scale and the way it sucks the life out of them so fast. Hope you get an answer soon.

[Brooke]

I hope you hear something definitive on your problem and they can help you solve it.

Brooke

[ARodney]

Shanna, last year I experienced something similar but with my phals. I decided to move them from my shade house to under a tree cause I figured I'll have more space to buy more orchids. What I didnt realize was next to the tree was a lime tree that had some kind of black mold on it. You are experiencing my heart break. Imagine one day your chids healthy with green leaves and the next day the leaves were soft, mushy and laying on top of the bottom leaf. I mean it happen in a 24 hour period. Out of the 40 orchids, I was only able to save 5. This experience disheartened me. I didn't want to go to my shade house and I made my husband cut down both trees. As a matter of fact, nature took care of them for about 2 months. What helped me was going to the orchid meeting and talking to a few society members. Even the show reignited my love for them. So I bought some more phals and started to care again. This experience thought me to enjoy everything about me orchids, cause here today and gone tomorrow.

Just letting you know I empathize with you and can tell you it's gonna be ok.

[Shannara]

Originally Posted by ARodney

Shanna, last year I experienced something similar but with my phals. I decided to move them from my shade house to under a tree cause I figured I'll have more space to buy more orchids. What I didnt realize was next to the tree was a lime tree that had some kind of black mold on it. You are experiencing my heart break. Imagine one day your chids healthy with green leaves and the next day the leaves were soft, mushy and laying on top of the bottom leaf. I mean it happen in a 24 hour period. Out of the 40 orchids, I was only able to save 5. This experience disheartened me. I didn't want to go to my shade house and I made my husband cut down both trees. As a matter of fact, nature took care of them for about 2 months. What helped me was going to the orchid meeting and talking to a few society members. Even the show reignited my love for them. So I bought some more phals and started to care again. This experience thought me to enjoy everything about me orchids, cause here today and gone tomorrow.

Just letting you know I empathize with you and can tell you it's gonna be ok.

You lost 35 orchids?! Man...that is just traumatizing. I would have been seriously discouraged. Good for you for not letting that experience keep you from collecting and growing orchids. I am doing my best not to be discouraged.

Most of the trees around my orchids are old water oaks which will have to be eventually taken down. They are well known for rotting from the inside out and can fall over without much warning. I have already removed one and the next one will be where I want a greenhouse to go. I feel that what I need to do is focus on finding space and money to get a greenhouse going.

I talked to the man who is diagnosing my orchids. He said the Vanda looked like something had chewed on it which was a surprise to me. I guess something got down near the crown and chewed it off?! He said he already saw a secondary fungal infection of Anthracnose? I am going to read up on that one tonight.

The other three he needs to culture in petri dishes for a couple days. He also said whatever the results are he will help me find a product with the right fungicide to treat the orchids with. I am very impressed and relieved to have his help. He seems to be taking the issue seriously and is working as quickly as possible so we can stop the progess of whatever this is.

I bleached my hose end sprayer today inside and out. Watered my orchids and set the fans on them. I will keep them going until I don't see anymore standing moisture.

I am so anxious to find out the diagnosis. Should take about two days so I hope to hear something on Friday.

Thanks everyone,
Shann~

[ARodney]

Yep 35+. I have a glass cup with all of the tags of my chids that have gone to orchid heaven. I'll take a picture and post. I've learned a lot thru trial and error. Everything will work out. Just keep one taking the preventative measures you're taking. It WILL work out.

[Shannara]

It looks like the diagnosis for 3 of the 4 plants is Black Rot (Phytophthora). He said this is classified as a water mold and not necessarily as a fungus.

The man I talked with recommended foestyl-Al and said that Aliette is what I need but I am not sure where to find something with this in it. He said normally it is sold in bulk by the pound. Any ideas or suggestions on where to look or what I can buy that will kill this particular mold/fungus would be greatly appreciated. I am going online and making several calls to find something that I can get relatively fast.

I appreciate any help!

Shann~

[Stitz]

Originally Posted by Shannara

It looks like the diagnosis for 3 of the 4 plants is Black Rot (Phytophthora). He said this is classified as a water mold and not necessarily as a fungus.

The man I talked with recommended foestyl-Al and said that Aliette is what I need but I am not sure where to find something with this in it. He said normally it is sold in bulk by the pound. Any ideas or suggestions on where to look or what I can buy that will kill this particular mold/fungus would be greatly appreciated. I am going online and making several calls to find something that I can get relatively fast.

I appreciate any help!

Shann~

My first reaction was to GOOGLE the recommended names with Southern States Cooperative. I learned nothing.

GOOD LUCK!!

--Stitz--

[Shannara]

Thanks for trying Stitz! I called Bayer who have the product Aliette. It is only for commercial use and you need a license to spray it from what I was told. I was not given any suggetions on what I could buy myself that would work as treatment. I do have a family friend who is licensed to stray plants in my local area who I have talked with. He is currently out of town but is willing to help me out if we can find a reasonably priced product. I was hoping to find something that I could use this weekend to prevent further plant loss.

This is a quote from my diagnosis form that was emailed to me on what products to look for:

"Fungicide Options: Preventative applications of foestyl-Al (Aliette, Flanker, Prokoz Avalon), potassiumvphosphite (Alude, Fungi-Phite, Topaz), propamocarb hydrochloride (Banol), trifloxystrobin (Compass), Bacillus subtilis QST 713 (Rhapsody), dimethomorph (Stature), mefenoxan (Subdue), etridiazole (Terrazole35%) may aid in reducing disease spread, but only complete control can be achieved if the infected planting material is destroyed"

Shann~

[koshki]

How about contacting some local lawn care people to see if they might have what you need available? Or some orchid nurseries and find out who they use?

Not that this is the problem you're having, but I happened to talk with my lawn care guy when he was taking care of nutsedge. Our next door neighbor has been trying to get rid of theirs and nothing is working. Our guy is licensed to use the big guns and just got a new customer!

I've got to imagine that somebody in Florida has what you need and could apply it for you. Instead of you buying a large quantity and then having to apply it!

[Shannara]

Originally Posted by koshki

How about contacting some local lawn care people to see if they might have what you need available? Or some orchid nurseries and find out who they use?

Not that this is the problem you're having, but I happened to talk with my lawn care guy when he was taking care of nutsedge. Our next door neighbor has been trying to get rid of theirs and nothing is working. Our guy is licensed to use the big guns and just got a new customer!

I've got to imagine that somebody in Florida has what you need and could apply it for you. Instead of you buying a large quantity and then having to apply it!

I just called two other businesses that are licensed to spray also. Hopefully one of them will call me back today. I am keeping my fingers crossed that they will have the fungicides I need on hand.

I am going to keep hunting for something that I can purchase to keep on hand though.

Shann~

[ARodney]

I hope you are able to get them to come. Maybe you can ask the technician to give you some so you can have on hand. The worse he can say is no and maybe tell you where you can get some. I'll have my fingers crossed for you too. Good luck

[Shannara]

Originally Posted by ARodney

I hope you are able to get them to come. Maybe you can ask the technician to give you some so you can have on hand. The worse he can say is no and maybe tell you where you can get some. I'll have my fingers crossed for you too. Good luck

Wow...yeah I hope they do call me back and can come by and spray. I have been on the phone most of the day and I am getting the clear impression that most of the fungicides on my list are restricted.

Now the Alude product I am having some good feedback on the availability. I may be able to buy it in a gallon container for a reasonable price. I was also recommended to use that with Mancozeb. So right now it looks like I am leaning towards the Alude in conjunction with Mancozeb.



Shann~

[BGGraham1]

Hi Shann...its a shame that this is becoming such a scavenger hunt for the right products.

Are there any nurseries close by that might have what you need for a quick spritz in the parking lot or something?? It seems that they should carry something a little stronger than what we can buy...

[katrina]

Originally Posted by koshki

How about contacting some local lawn care people to see if they might have what you need available? Or some orchid nurseries and find out who they use?

Landscape companies won't touch this w/a 10' pole. Well, they shouldn't anyway. Their licensing doesn't cover these type of plants and they can get in trouble w/the state agency that oversees those things. Is it the Ag department? I don't remember anymore. Plus, the products are mixed for lawn - which wouldn't apply to the orchids...or trees and shrubs which would likely be way too strong a mixture for non-woody plants. I don't remember all the details but don't waste your time calling landscape companies.

The nursery idea is a good one...they might have something on hand and might be willing to help you out by spraying them for you. I doubt they'll sell you a controlled product though. Again w/the licensing...they could lose theirs for selling to an unlicensed person.

Some of those products must be available for use by non-licensed individuals. Try Rosemania -- Roses, Rose Care Products, Fungicides, Pesticides, Inscticides & Growing Advice. I know they have a lot of different things...geared toward roses but, just about anything used on a rose can also be used on an orchid.

[Shannara]

Originally Posted by BGGraham1

Hi Shann...its a shame that this is becoming such a scavenger hunt for the right products.

Are there any nurseries close by that might have what you need for a quick spritz in the parking lot or something?? It seems that they should carry something a little stronger than what we can buy...

Most nurseries, at least in my area, do not keep a licensed employee for their spraying needs. Those are usually contracted out and they come by on a schedule or as needed basis.

I know most of the guys in town who spray greenhouses and have talked to one of them who is currently out of town. The other one hasn't called me back yet.

Originally Posted by katrina

Landscape companies won't touch this w/a 10' pole. Well, they shouldn't anyway. Their licensing doesn't cover these type of plants and they can get in trouble w/the state agency that oversees those things. Is it the Ag department? I don't remember anymore. Plus, the products are mixed for lawn - which wouldn't apply to the orchids...or trees and shrubs which would likely be way too strong a mixture for non-woody plants. I don't remember all the details but don't waste your time calling landscape companies.

The nursery idea is a good one...they might have something on hand and might be willing to help you out by spraying them for you. I doubt they'll sell you a controlled product though. Again w/the licensing...they could lose theirs for selling to an unlicensed person.

Some of those products must be available for use by non-licensed individuals. Try Rosemania -- Roses, Rose Care Products, Fungicides, Pesticides, Inscticides & Growing Advice. I know they have a lot of different things...geared toward roses but, just about anything used on a rose can also be used on an orchid.

Yeah, the guys I called should be licensed to spray at local nurseries, including their greenhouses with orchids. Well, at least 2 of the 3 I called have both treated local plant nurseries but I am waiting to hear back from two of them. If they are not familiar with, or licensed, to treat orchids they won't get anywhere near my chids! I they are licensed to treat them I am more than willing pay for their service if the fungicide I need is restricted. If needed way can spray a test group that is currently in isolation to see how they react. I have only spoken to 1 of the 3 guys though and left messages for the other two. I am hoping they call back soon.

Meanwhile...I have Mancozeb coming tomorrow along with a 2 gallon sprayer. I talked to a technical salesperson at Cleary who is the manufacturer of Alude who said their product is not restricted for residential use. She then talked to a local wholesaler who said he is getting in a shipment of Alude next week and asked him if he could provide a smaller amount to me for my plants. I think it normally comes in a quantity of 100 gallons or something at a quantity far larger than I need!! They are going to let me purchase a 1 gallon container of Alude which they will prepare for me. The treatment measurement is 4 teaspoons per gallon so this should last me awhile. Since this product was on my list from the diagnostic clinic as a fungicide option for Phytophthora I am hopeful this will do the trick.

I will keep you all updated and welcome any input or opinions on the above products I plan to use for treatment.

Shann~

[jayfar]

On my computer desktop I have a long article pdf with pics on orchid pests and diseases (Orchid Pests and Diseases Diagnosis, Treatment and Prevention by Sue Bottom), but I can't recall from where I downloaded it.

Relevant excerpt mentions using Subdue:

Treatment of Black Rot
Pythium & Phytophthora spp.
Treatment: Unless the plant is valuable, the best approach is to discard it, as the disease is highly contagious and will spread from plant to plant from splashing water. If the plant is valuable, isolate it from your other plants, remove infected tissue with a sterile tool, and drench with a suitable fungicide like Subdue following label instructions.
Prevention: High temperatures and humidity contribute to the spread of the disease. Consider using a preventative fungicide spray, particularly during hot humid periods, following label instructions.

Also an interesting study here (the place you sent your samples to):

Review of Fungicides for Control of Phytophthora and Pythium Diseases on Potted Ornamentals

EDIT: Wow! That stuff is pricey. Googling around, I see Subdue Maxx ranging in price from $199 to 299 for a quart.

[Shannara]

Originally Posted by jayfar

On my computer desktop I have a long article pdf with pics on orchid pests and diseases (Orchid Pests and Diseases Diagnosis, Treatment and Prevention by Sue Bottom), but I can't recall from where I downloaded it.

Relevant excerpt mentions using Subdue:

Also an interesting study here (the place you sent your samples to):

Review of Fungicides for Control of Phytophthora and Pythium Diseases on Potted Ornamentals

EDIT: Wow! That stuff is pricey. Googling around, I see Subdue Maxx ranging in price from $199 to 299 for a quart.

It appears the really good fungicides are very pricey. Thats why I was hoping to work something out with the vendor for Alude because they were willing to sell me a gallon size container for around $70. That should last me a good long while.

Thanks for the article on Phytophthora...I am trying to learn as much about this as I can so I can take better care of my chids. The University of Florida is a wonderful source of information and they are very helpful. I will look around for the article from Sue Bottom and see what I can come up with.

Thanks again!

Shann~

[Shannara]

My Mancozeb arrived today but in the instructions booklet I am seeing random numbers for the mixing ratio. For vegi's it lists anywhere from 3-5 tsp. per gallon. For ornamentals 3 tsp. For many of the plants it lists it doesn't show a ratio at all. For example the Roses it just says what it treats but no ratio is listed. Kinda scratching my head over here. Bonide customer service is closed for today so I can't ask them.

My guess would be to use the ratio for ornamentals at 3 tsp. per gallon but I thought I'd check with you guys first.

Shann~

[dounoharm]

i hope you have good luck with this treatment....you have had a horrible horrible experience with this.....my best wishes go with you!!!! keep your chin up!!

[heatherm]

Hello Shann and everyone:

Sorry to hear about your problems, but this seems to be the season. I returned from my vacation in Florida to find some plants looking very well, but alas what I believe was a fungus seems to be attacking some other plants. When I first joined the geeks I did so to seek some guidance with this problem.

I followed recommendations to treat with a fungicide. It worked and three of the plants subsequently flowered. Those were my Big Alex x Silver Wings seedlings as they were approaching adulthood. Now what appears to be same fungus has started on some of my other dens. I belive it is the very warm weather mixed with sudden down pours of rain that invites these problems.

All that to say that this thread has motivated me to get going at battling this condition again. Shan I wish you all the best with conquering this situation.

Heather

[Shannara]

Originally Posted by dounoharm

i hope you have good luck with this treatment....you have had a horrible horrible experience with this.....my best wishes go with you!!!! keep your chin up!!

Thanks for the good wishes! I treated earlier with the Mancozeb and the fans have been going full blast since. My husband just commented a few minutes ago about my determination to see this mess through. I am going to to do whatever it takes to save my orchid babies.

I must say I love the new 2 gal sprayer that I used today. Made the job much faster, easier and accurate. I found one plant with two black spots on the leaves during the application. I cut them, dusted with cinnamon and moved the plant into the isolation group.

Originally Posted by heatherm

Hello Shann and everyone:

Sorry to hear about your problems, but this seems to be the season. I returned from my vacation in Florida to find some plants looking very well, but alas what I believe was a fungus seems to be attacking some other plants. When I first joined the geeks I did so to seek some guidance with this problem.

I followed recommendations to treat with a fungicide. It worked and three of the plants subsequently flowered. Those were my Big Alex x Silver Wings seedlings as they were approaching adulthood. Now what appears to be same fungus has started on some of my other dens. I belive it is the very warm weather mixed with sudden down pours of rain that invites these problems.

All that to say that this thread has motivated me to get going at battling this condition again. Shan I wish you all the best with conquering this situation.

Heather

Yuck Heather...that just stinks! If you need any of the information or contact info for the products I looked into just let me know. Mancozeb is pretty easy to find but some of these stronger fungicides can be restricted or elusive. I am curious which one you used last time you had rot.

Get some fans on them if you can between rain spouts. The heavy rains have let up somewhat for me which has greatly increased my chances of getting this situation under control.

Good luck with your babies!

Shann~

[Shannara]

So far none of the orchids that have shown signs of black rot have survived after treatment. I have three left in quarantine. I disposed of several today that succumbed despite the removal of infected growth and treatment. I currently have a pack of small cheap scissors I am using on the black rot plants. Once one is used on a plant it is disposed of so I don't risk spreading this nasty mess.

I took the final three that are still viable and hit them with an experimental dose of Physan, Phyton, and Mancozeb. They will either survive it, die from it, or continue to die from black rot.

Needless to say I am very anxious to purchase my Alude. There was a nasty rain yesterday and I had to run my fans till 3 am and the plants were still too wet for my liking. I have the fans back out again to day and all is dry but I am concerned about what yesterdays rain could of done. I am keeping a very close eye on my chids and am hoping for the best.

Other than a virus this has to be one of the worst things I can imagine infecting a collection. It is extremely difficult to treat once a plant shows signs of the disease. I need to compile a list of names of the plants I have lost so far.

Shann~

[Dendian]

Shann,

I am really sorry to hear that, I know they can probably be replaced but it is dis-heartening to loose that many plants. I am battling the scale, and have lost a few to the suckers, but I think rot is much worse. I hope you can not only get a handle on it - but remove it from your area so no more are affected by it.

for you!

[BGGraham1]

Originally Posted by Shannara

So far none of the orchids that have shown signs of black rot have survived after treatment. I have three left in quarantine. I disposed of several today that succumbed despite the removal of infected growth and treatment. I currently have a pack of small cheap scissors I am using on the black rot plants. Once one is used on a plant it is disposed of so I don't risk spreading this nasty mess.

I took the final three that are still viable and hit them with an experimental dose of Physan, Phyton, and Mancozeb. They will either survive it, die from it, or continue to die from black rot.

Needless to say I am very anxious to purchase my Alude. There was a nasty rain yesterday and I had to run my fans till 3 am and the plants were still too wet for my liking. I have the fans back out again to day and all is dry but I am concerned about what yesterdays rain could of done. I am keeping a very close eye on my chids and am hoping for the best.

Other than a virus this has to be one of the worst things I can imagine infecting a collection. It is extremely difficult to treat once a plant shows signs of the disease. I need to compile a list of names of the plants I have lost so far.

Shann~

Someone a few days ago posted something that I will start doing, if it ever comes to that. She kept a jar with all of the tags from the plants she has lost. Is it too late to retrieve the tags and start a little memorial jar?

[Reg22]

Shann,
This thread scares me! I hope your plants recover. Looking back, are there any signs you would recommend looking out for?

[dounoharm]

well, i think shann, you should make up a 'wish list' of all the plants you have lost....and maybe if someone has a spare, they would send it to you.....i have mostly catts, but i am very willing to share...just give me alist and i will see what i have on it....gl shann, and dont let it get you down....

[Shannara]

Originally Posted by Dendian

Shann,

I am really sorry to hear that, I know they can probably be replaced but it is dis-heartening to loose that many plants. I am battling the scale, and have lost a few to the suckers, but I think rot is much worse. I hope you can not only get a handle on it - but remove it from your area so no more are affected by it.

for you!

Scale...especially tea scale is just horrible. They can hide deep down in the tiniest crevases. A good systemic is about the only way to battle those little buggers. I hope you don't any more plants either. It is really really sad!

Originally Posted by BGGraham1

Someone a few days ago posted something that I will start doing, if it ever comes to that. She kept a jar with all of the tags from the plants she has lost. Is it too late to retrieve the tags and start a little memorial jar?

I have all the tags still. I need to go through them and mark on my plant list ehy are dead. It is a really good idea to save them though...so you don't let the same thing happen again.

Originally Posted by Reg22

Shann,
This thread scares me! I hope your plants recover. Looking back, are there any signs you would recommend looking out for?

I don't want to scare you though this is a scary situation for me. I will try and tell you as briefly as possible what I have learned up to this point. I am not an expert on this but I can tell you what I have experienced and how I am treating the situation.

Sitting water is just a bad deal. If you are having a lot of rain I would invest in some portable fans with a really fairly strong breeze to help to dry your growing area as quickly as possible. Removing the the dried up bracts on your new growth is a good idea...especially on Catts and Encyclias. Black rot will sometimes first show signs in the p-bulb and those guide bracts, kinda like the sheaths that protect new spikes, can hide problems.

If you are having persistant rain I would consider doing a preventative treatment with a fungicide that will work like a systemic. I personally am going to be trying Alude, but there is a list posted up further in this thread of recommended products and active ingredients to look for when you are treating for Phytophtora.

If you even suspect an orchid has black rot isolate it and treat the surrounding plants with fungicide, like maybe Mancozeb. Disinfect anything the plant was sitting on or around with bleach. Make sure any cutting tools are thoroughly sterilized.

The key to fighting black rot is really prevention. Once your plants are wet they need to dry out and not have puddling water on their leaves or caught down in the new growth after about 6 hours. The sooner you can dry up these puddles the better. I could be wrong on this but I think why this generally crops up around new growth is that the leaves have not fully opened and create almost a cup for water to sit in until that growth is mature. Generally you see the new growth affected first but sometimes it will just pop up as a mushy black or brown spot on a leaf and start spreading down to the p-bulb.

June is the rainiest and most humid time of the year and this is when these problems will start to crop up because these types of fungus are water molds which thrive in a humid, warm, and damp environments.

If you have any other questions just let me know.

HTH

Shann~

[BGGraham1]

Originally Posted by dounoharm

well, i think shann, you should make up a 'wish list' of all the plants you have lost....and maybe if someone has a spare, they would send it to you.....i have mostly catts, but i am very willing to share...just give me alist and i will see what i have on it....gl shann, and dont let it get you down....

LOL! I was gonna try to be sneaky about it, but since its out there...

[Shannara]

Originally Posted by dounoharm

well, i think shann, you should make up a 'wish list' of all the plants you have lost....and maybe if someone has a spare, they would send it to you.....i have mostly catts, but i am very willing to share...just give me alist and i will see what i have on it....gl shann, and dont let it get you down....

Awww thank you for being so generous! I will be compiling a list this week of what I have lost so far and will post it here. I appreciate the support here at geeks more than you guys know. I am doing my best to not let it get to me.



edit:

Originally Posted by BGGraham1

LOL! I was gonna try to be sneaky about it, but since its out there...

Shann~