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Old 02-25-2010, 01:09 AM
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NOID Dendrobium Phalaenanthe Type with yellowing leaves and black areas

Hello. I just joined this forum and I'm really worried about my orchid. It has lost 2 leaves already that turned yellow and black and a few others are now doing the same thing. I have no idea why or what to do for it. I took some pictures. I really hope someone can help. One is the plant itself so you can see what its like. one is the roots its a bit fuzzy i couldn`t get the camera to focus properly the thumbprint should be clearer. One is of a leaf turning brown and the other is a leaf just turning yellow. Anyways please help I really don't know what I should do. These are not old leaves they are relatively new and shouldn't be coming off.
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Old 02-25-2010, 01:50 AM
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The canes of phal type dens (and most other dens) lose their leaves after the first year or two. Don't cut the canes off, as they continue to supply energy to the plant.

Keep an eye on it, in case it is something more serious.
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Old 02-25-2010, 02:01 AM
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Hi Sandrilene

Welcome to the forum. Don't worry one of the Wiseones will be along soon and they will help you.
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Old 02-25-2010, 02:18 AM
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Sandrilene
Your den looks healthy to me, and as tansy said its normal for dens to loose their
leaves. So I wouldn't worry about it, but if your too worried about it... you can apply
fungicide if you want.
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Old 02-25-2010, 02:34 AM
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I wouldn`t be so worried if the black areas weren't spreading The leaves aren't just turning yellow they are developing black areas too.
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Old 02-25-2010, 02:44 AM
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G'Day Sandrilene

Welcome to the forum, as Julez more geeks will be along, but sounds like you may be worrying unnecessarily.

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Old 02-25-2010, 03:07 AM
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I hope that is the case. I'm paranoid because I recently bought 3 new orchids online and they brought some friends with them and shared them so I have had to repot most of my plants and use fungicide and pesticide on them. They all seem to be doing better except this one which was doing fine until two days ago when the leaves just started turning yellow with black splotches on them. I really love this orchid so I'm overly worried about it. If it was just yellow it wouldn`t bother me as much. It's the only one of this type I've ever had and my first non phal.

On the plus side I have another orchid that should bloom in the next week or so by the look of it and another shooting out spikes. Trying to decide if i should water it its dry but i think i might wait another day before I water it its one of the ones that likes to be dry in between waterings. Its putting out a bunch of new roots too. I'll post pictures of it when it does.
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Old 02-25-2010, 03:21 AM
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in my limited exposure to dens, i've noticed that when a leaf is getting ready to die off, it forms those black spots you're seeing. the rest of the leaf then turns yellow with a still-green ring around the black spots. the leaf then eventually dries and falls off. no idea if this is normal or not, but it hasn't seemed to affect my plant (phal-type Den. Hollywood) at all. like others have said, dens will lose their leaves, that's a natural part of the aging of the plant. mine has several leafless canes. but if yours seems to be losing an unusually high number at a time (more than 1 or 2), do a root and buggy check if you can.
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Old 02-25-2010, 03:26 AM
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Yeah the roots are fine it may have bugs I can't use the good stuff on em for another few days though. I put it it its own little room away from all my other plants because its the only one still not doing well. If you guys know something I can use for bugs besides a store bought insecticide that won't be too much in combination with one I'll try it but I don;t want to kill it by using too much either.
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Old 02-25-2010, 03:26 AM
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It's lost 3 leaves in 2 days probably a 4th and maybe a 5th tomorrow by the looks of it. The number of leaves it's losing is whats alarming besides the black spots. My avatar is the blooms for this chid. It may not like its new pot. I ran out of small ones and due to the insect thing had to repot it wasn't an option so it probably wants a smaller one too.

Last edited by Sandrilene; 02-25-2010 at 03:31 AM.
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:10 AM
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wish i could offer more help. that's pretty much the extent of my knowledge on the subject. but something definitely doesn't sound right.

however, my epidendrum did something similar a month ago or so. it was spotty when i bought it, then 5 months later or so, it lost a lot of leaves in a big hurry and the spots got worse. i hit it with a couple applications of brookn's recipe and it seems to have stopped the leaf loss. don't want to tell you flat out to try that, but perhaps it might work too? i'll defer to the more experienced geeks for sure.
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:52 AM
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It looks ok I would just keep an eye on it and let that be the extent of it. I know they always do this but I am the same way you are. I worry when anything looks different LOL
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Old 02-26-2010, 02:05 AM
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yea its hard not to when they can be so fragile about some things. it only has a few leaves left now. They aren't going as fast but i think they may still be dying off for whatever reason. On the bright side tomorrow I should have new bloom pictures to share another orchid has been spending the day slowly opening a bud for me so i think it will be ready for tomorrow to see
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Old 02-26-2010, 04:18 AM
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Dying leaves could be one of 4 different things:
1) natural die off
2) a root problem
3) a fungal or bacterial problem
4) a cultural problem

I dissagree with the others that say phal-type dens drop their leaves after a year or two. This may be true when the plant is being grown "rough" (mostly outdoors and exposed to harsh climate), but very healthy well-grown plants will hold their leaves for several years. Because the cane that the leaves are dieing off from does not look to me to be that old, I don't think your leaf loss is natural die off.

I would first un-pot it and check the roots. You may already have done this or perhaps it is in a clear pot. I can't tell at all what condition they are in from that root pic. What you want are fresh crisp roots either white-ish or cream-ish or green-ish. If the roots are soft and grey or blackyou have some root rot and this prevents water and nutrients grom getting into the plant thg=rough the roots. This can cause leaf loss.

If the roots are healthy (good for you!) you might have a fungal problem. Some of the black spots look like fungal spotting. Sometimes fungi attack healthy leaves and cause the leaf to die. Other times the leaf is already dieing for some other reason and the fungal infection is secondary. I can't tell which is which just by looking at a picture. Nonetheless, you may want to consider treating it with a good fungicide.

Another possible cause is cultural. If you hae nto already done so, get a good culture sheet on phal type dendrobiums either from this forum or from AOS | Members Only Area. Give it a good read and compare what it says to the conditions (temp, light, etc) you are growingit in. Do they match? If not you may need ot try to adjust the conditions in your growing area. Let us know if you have questions.
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Old 02-26-2010, 08:07 AM
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The plant does look a little overpotted.
DId you check the roots for rot? As some said, it may be a root probelm.
Dens loike small pots, If you can't find anything, then reuse plastic containers.
What I like to use is the bottom half of water bottles.
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Old 02-27-2010, 02:26 AM
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yea i will i just need to get one the right size all mine are large and the small ones are too small for this plant :S theres no rot in the roots they are doing well. but i don`t think it likes the pot at the same time. I`ve only had this plant for about 4 months maybe so it shouldn`t be dying off like this that is why i`m concerned.

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Old 02-27-2010, 01:37 PM
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I agree with Kevin. I have a few den's like yours and they have not dropped their leaves at all. So if roots aren't the issue then you have to consider a fungal problem. As he said, a good fungicide can help. Den's in general like to be somewhat potbound, so be sure it's in the smallest size pot able to hold the root system. They also like a lot of light and during active growth and frquent watering with fertilizer.
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Old 03-01-2010, 10:11 PM
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My den seems to be having the same problem. I have two canes, and the bottom leaves on both are turning yellow and have at least one brownish-black spot.

How is your doing Sandrilene?
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Old 03-02-2010, 01:01 AM
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I'm too having some leaf issues on dens but some are little brown dots I thought were bugs sucking juice, but consensus was fungus. Mine are crowded in a small GH now for winter. I'm spraying. Running the fan. But may not be watering correctly right now.
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Old 03-02-2010, 10:46 AM
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One of the leaves came off today. I will try and be hopefully I think I see it getting taller, so maybe that is why....but who knows.
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Old 03-02-2010, 05:54 PM
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If you don't have a smaller pot, you can use a deli container with holes poked through it. If you don't have that, put a couple of inches of packing peanuts on the bottom of it's present pot. Be careful that they're not the kind that dissolve. The idea is to provide more air to the medium and the roots. Too much medium will stay too wet too long. Dens love to be pot bound.

If the plant is top heavy in a smaller pot, slip it into a heavy clay pot to stabilize it.

Another possibilty is not enough light. What light do you have the plant in?
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Old 03-04-2010, 07:54 PM
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If you are talking to me, I have it in a south facing window. I am loosing another leaf (bottom) on the other cane. Will post a pic of it later on my own thread. I also checked the roots today, the ones at the top are green, and the as they go down into the medium they turn white, the the farther down they go the darker they get, like an almost greyish color
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Old 03-05-2010, 02:51 AM
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Good news! I treated it and cut off all the leaves with the black areas on them to be safe and treated the cuts. The spread of the black has stopped or severally been hindered and I still have a few leaves! I noticed what looked like the start of more spots today so I treated it again i used that recipe that is on the forum with the cinnamon extract and I also butchered the pot it was in so that it would be small enough for the orchid to be happy in. Hopefully this will work!
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Old 03-05-2010, 03:01 AM
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Glad to hear it!
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Old 03-07-2010, 07:17 PM
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Eh lost two more leaves. happened way slower this time. Should be ok as long as the roots are healthy and the canes are though right?
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Old 03-08-2010, 09:53 AM
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Photos to back up Kevin's earlier comment about leaf drop.

Quote:
I dissagree with the others that say phal-type dens drop their leaves after a year or two.
den.-schulan-x-superbiens-7.jpg dens-outdoors.jpg

Plants grown "rough" outdoors year round with limited lead drop.

Bill
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Old 03-09-2010, 09:23 PM
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WOW!!!!! Those are huge! Also very beautiful..
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Old 03-09-2010, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willowbanks View Post
Photos to back up Kevin's earlier comment about leaf drop.



Attachment 32953 Attachment 32954

Plants grown "rough" outdoors year round with limited lead drop.

Bill
Holy ____! I don't believe I have ever seen a phal type den that large! WOW!

How long have you been growing those behemoths?

Do you leave those out when there is frost expected?
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Old 03-10-2010, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Holy ____! I don't believe I have ever seen a phal type den that large! WOW!
I haven't seen a phal type den that large either, this one is a spatulata Dendrobium hybrid.

Quote:
How long have you been growing those behemoths?
A long time, the photo above is about 15 years old and in show retirement, put out to stud for breeding.

I've replaced it on the show circuit with one of it's divisions

den.-schulan-x-superbiens-5.jpg

This photo is a closer shot of the flowers from #3 plant in the ally way photo above.

den.-schulan-x-superbiens-2.jpg

Quote:
Do you leave those out when there is frost expected?
Yes, the big one has lived out the front of my house for eight years and the only time it moves is when the wind blows. It hangs from the guttering and has a little protection.

The ally way is the same, they stay there all year.

I do lose some leave but I can live with that.

Bill
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:14 PM
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That is very cool Bill. It looks like the plant is getting over whatever it had. Haven`t lost any more leaves since my last post and they aren`t turning yellow at the moment anyways. So far i`m very happy with brookn's formula killed my gnats off by the looks of things and is helping my den.
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Old 06-13-2010, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willowbanks View Post
Photos to back up Kevin's earlier comment about leaf drop.



Attachment 32953 Attachment 32954

Plants grown "rough" outdoors year round with limited lead drop.

Bill
Wow Bill... these are amazing, just incredible! What types of dends are these? Just lovely... I dream of growing dends like that some day, but first it would help to move to a more hospitable location to be able to grow outdoors
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Old 06-14-2010, 04:00 PM
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Lady Tottington, they are antelope and intermediate shape hard cane Dendrobiums.

Very easy to grow in a coarse media that doesn't retain a lot of moisture, also they thrive in bright light.

Bill
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Old 06-15-2010, 02:35 PM
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dens.problem mostly root related.some leves turn yellow and drop off.neem oil in my esperience works well.daily sunshine partially is essential for blooming.
you have good advice from geeks and speciemen plants growing outside.dens are hardy plants.But I had trouble with nobile type.lost a few.
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Old 07-17-2010, 04:29 AM
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One further note: I've made a small but important change in the title of this thread. I changed the word "Phalaenopsis" in the title to "Phalaenanthe." When we talk about "phal-type" dendrobiums, the "phal" bit does not refer to phalaenopsis but rather it refers to the Section Phalaenanthe which is the section that contains most fo the species used in breeding these hybrids.
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