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Old 09-09-2007, 10:09 AM
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HElp!!! I have crown rot! :(

To my horror, I found out that one of my big healthy phal. has crown rot!!

Just when I figure out the root rot thing. sigh!

The top 3 leaves have become mushy and when I pulled it, they came off easily.

Now there is a big hole in the middle of the plant. What shall I do. Please help!!


Help!! help!!

I have a humidifier running next to the poor thing! I must have killed him!


Last edited by morphiii; 09-09-2007 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 09-09-2007, 10:30 AM
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I think, although not positive that this means extra space now in your growing area morphiii. I hope I'm wrong.
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Old 09-09-2007, 11:38 AM
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pour some peroxide in ad let it foam out the gross, then make sure to sprinkle with cinnamon or sulpher, then keep water out of the hole. It very well may still produce a new crown.

-Cj
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Old 09-09-2007, 08:52 PM
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It will be a long process, but with any luck your plant will develop a basal keiki so that it can once again grow - the original plant is done - the remaining leaves will live out their normal lifespan and then yellow and fall off. Here is a plant of mine that seems to have problems developing a new leaf from the crown (not from crown rot) - the same net effect in the end - it has just recently surfaced a basal keiki (not to be confused with a new flower spike).
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Old 09-11-2007, 05:18 AM
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sorry but i think your plant is dead.
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Old 09-11-2007, 05:49 AM
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I am sorry about your Phal, Morphiii.

I don't enough to comment on it.

But I have a Q in this context. Does water cause crown rot?

The reason I ask is that all my Phals ( about 35, I think) are currently outside and I hose them down every other day and since most of them are above eye-level I do not check if water stays in the crown. So far I have not seen any problems.

Am I waiting for a disaster to happen?

Thanks.
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Old 09-11-2007, 05:55 AM
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pikevi

Water forms in the crown and can not escape that causes the problem

so the answer to your question is yes water can cause crown rot.
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Old 09-11-2007, 06:02 AM
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Thanks fred.

I remember reading about that in one of the threads here. When the plants were inside I used take a straw and blow the water out of the crown ( when I had only 10 or so Phals!).

I assumed that when they are outside nature (wind and the sun) will take care of it.

I will take the step ladder and inspect them from above.

Thanks again.
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Old 09-11-2007, 07:46 AM
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Pikevi, if you are watering early enough in the day, the sun and wind will take care of the water left in the crown from the hose. It's only when the remaining water can't evaporate that you have problems.
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:03 AM
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how would phalas survive in the wild with all the rain in the rain forests that they live in?
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:11 AM
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I feel bad that I killed the wonderful plant. I returned it to Home Depot and get a new one.

I think my mistake was I had the humidifier blowing at the plant for a whole night and the water seem to have caused the rot.

But I am just wondering what causes the leaves to just go limp and mush like that.

It is like all the membrane on the leaves popped and the water just leaked out.

Horrible situation.

I hope it will never happen again.

Last edited by morphiii; 09-11-2007 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
When the plants were inside I used take a straw and blow the water out of the crown ( when I had only 10 or so Phals!
LOL when I started and after killing a few I used to wipe the places that collected water witha paper towel "just in case" I think that is when my husband knew I had a problem!
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Old 09-11-2007, 10:14 AM
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Don"t feel too bad, I think most of us have killed a few innocents also, just keep trying. eva
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Old 09-11-2007, 10:40 AM
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Pikevi - I also water all of my phals from the top - as you may have noted in a previous post - I just cram my bathtub with them and water tham all with a couple of gallons from a watering can. I make no effort whatsoever to clear the water from the crowns. You can imagine that nurseries that grow phals are also going to water all their plants in mass - so the crowns are definately going to get filled with water. The trick as also noted - do it early in the day and provide lots of air movement so that they will dry well - way before evening. mike
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Old 09-11-2007, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viper View Post
how would phalas survive in the wild with all the rain in the rain forests that they live in?
My understanding is that most phals in the wild are not quite upright as we like to grow them; they grow sideways so rainwater drains from the crown. There are folks that grow them mounted or with side hanging pots to replicate this method of growing.

Jeanne
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phalaephila View Post
My understanding is that most phals in the wild are not quite upright as we like to grow them; they grow sideways so rainwater drains from the crown. There are folks that grow them mounted or with side hanging pots to replicate this method of growing.

Jeanne
I used to slap them on a mount upside down, and they would grow out and slighty up, basically coming off at a 90 degree angle. Even if you mount them going up, they lean out and let their leaves spread and cascade. FLowers are usually held in a graceful arch from the plant, as opposed to the upright spikes we like in a pot. Phal. equestris is sortof an exception, as it pretty much grows upright. But then, it's also a lot smaller and has less crown area to fill in with water...

Phals. stuartiana, phillipinense, and schilleriana were favourites of mine, mounted.

-Cj
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:55 PM
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I''m paranoid about water getting into the crowns and use a cotton bud to soak up any that gets in there. (all my plants are indoors)
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Old 09-11-2007, 04:26 PM
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Well another sad news, the other Phal. that I had next to the big white one is showing similar symptoms.

What the hell? The leaf is weak in the crown and when I pull on it, off it comes.

I killed this one too!!

They should put me in orchid death row for all the plants that I have killed.

I think I have murdered 4 so far.

Unbelievable. I have to return this to the poor people of Home Depot and hope to get new one.

Sigh!
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Old 09-11-2007, 05:26 PM
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It's okay, Morphii. It has been mentioned numerous times on this forum that an expert is an orchid lover that has killed many orchids. See, this is a learning curve for you. You will never water your orchids and not pay attention to the water in the crown, or, as you mentioned, leave the humidifier blowing on them.

I had to learn the hard way to always check the roots, no matter where you buy your orchids.

We still love you.
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Old 09-11-2007, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morphiii View Post
Well another sad news, the other Phal. that I had next to the big white one is showing similar symptoms.

What the hell? The leaf is weak in the crown and when I pull on it, off it comes.

i still think there is a question as to whether it's a bacteria or a fungus that couses CR, but as you have just found out, it spreads.

the first thing to do when you find CR is immediately isolate the affected plant. i know people who then spray down the growing area and all the nearby plants with a fungicide to try and nip any spread in the bud.

condolences, but sometimes this stuff happens. i was at my local (fairly good) nursery a few weeks ago looking at the 'chids, and came around the bench to find a baldan's kaleidoscope just disintegrating from some sort of rot. no way would i buy a plant from anywhere in that greenhouse. (i snagged a one of the nursery dudes and mentioned he might want to spray the bench down with physan 20 but i don't know if he did it or not.)
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Old 09-11-2007, 05:51 PM
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Janet,

Even though it has happened to the plant right next to the previous one with rot, does not mean it spread. It could be that the two plants both experience the exact same conditions that in fact contributed to the crown rot.

I am not saying that it did not spread, but it could be other reasons that the other plant got crown rot.


jay
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Old 09-11-2007, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
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Janet,

Even though it has happened to the plant right next to the previous one with rot, does not mean it spread. It could be that the two plants both experience the exact same conditions that in fact contributed to the crown rot.

I am not saying that it did not spread, but it could be other reasons that the other plant got crown rot.


jay

I suspect the same might be true. They were both on a humidity tray next to the humidifier and some how it collected mist in the crown, and I didn't notice it right away.

I just want to know what is it anyways that caused that vast amount of tissue degeneration in such a short period of time?

24 to 48 hours?

The only thing that come close to that in human is gingivitis, but at a slower rate.

This is like gingivitis on steroids.

On top of that 2 of my lovebirds chew 8 tiny holes in two of the flowers of the white phal. that I exchanged for yesterday!!! I let them out of their cage for a little bit, I left the room for 4 minutes and they damaged the flowers!

4 minutes!

I am about to pull my hair out!! I was so p****d of that I chased them across the room like a mad man.



Man am I obsessed with this orchid thing or what?

Last edited by fred; 09-11-2007 at 09:50 PM. Reason: Edited Admin
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Old 09-11-2007, 09:43 PM
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morphiii: I hope someone can tell you from the symptoms if it is some bacterial infection that is causing it. Isolation of the plant(s) at this point may NOT prevent the spread if it is ,indeed, bacteria.

Did you mean that the dead plants can be returned for another at Home Depot??!!!. Seems like a good deal

Humidifier is the main suspect since I have seen water streaming down Cym leaves that are close to it. I did not have any problems but now I make sure the mist does not hit the leaves directly.

I hope it is just an isolated incidence within a bad batch.

Good luck.

mayres: When the orchids were inside I was not watering from above. But now they get watered from above since they are outside. In addition the rain falls directly on them too. Luckily for me I have been watering (hose) them in the morning ,along with the other plants, to avoid an explosion of slug population.

Viper: In natural settings the orchids are exposed to many things and the wind and the sun will take care of the excess water. As Phalaephila said the positioning of the orchids( may be not applicable to all orchids) may help too. And I have seen many insects 'drinking' water from the orchids, especially bees and wasps.

Water may not stay in the crown for any appreciable length of time to cause the rot, I'd think.
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Old 09-11-2007, 09:47 PM
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Old 09-11-2007, 10:14 PM
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I have not bought any orchids from HD. I wonder what their policies are here in Canada.

It IS a good deal
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Old 09-11-2007, 10:18 PM
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pikevi - I noticed while picking tomatoes this morning at 6:00 am that the slugs are hatching this time of year in my neck of the woods and starting to repopulate some of the areas I had previously thinned out. Hmmmm. Immediately I headed for the garage and Corys to sprinkle slug bait around my outdoor orchids. I suppose we have another month or so until they will have to come in for the winter? Like you, I really appreciate the ability to spray them all down with the hose during the warm months - wonderful! :-) How I envy those tropical Floridans........
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Old 09-11-2007, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikevi View Post
I have not bought any orchids from HD. I wonder what their policies are here in Canada.

It IS a good deal
I think they are probably the same although you don't get a lot of variety at HD. Mostly large white Phal. Pink, Purple and somewhere in between.
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Old 09-11-2007, 11:43 PM
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For the record, anything that moves that fast and leaves a watery area is almost certainly bacterial in nature. You're right about the allusion to burst tissue leaking fluid...that's exactly what happens. THe bacteria multiply and consume the tissues around them, and release various g***es as waste, ultimately causing the afected leaves/tissues to burst and leak out fluid filled with bacteria and whatever leftover stuff that hasn't been consumed by the bacteria themselves. The gaseous waste is what gives the affected area that typical 'rot' smell. Inside the leaves of a plant, whic is essentially an aqueous environment, full of lovely nutritional substances like glucose and fructose and chlorophyll, bacteria can certainly have a population explosion from a very small colonization.

-Cj
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:11 AM
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LOL when I started and after killing a few I used to wipe the places that collected water witha paper towel "just in case" I think that is when my husband knew I had a problem!
I do the same thing with the paper towel. My husband (ex) is out here visiting now (yes, we're great friends ) and he tells me he's worried what's taken over me with this orchid mania I've been pulled into, lol! 'Vacuous', he tells me! Sheeesh....
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orchidflowerchild View Post
For the record, anything that moves that fast and leaves a watery area is almost certainly bacterial in nature. You're right about the allusion to burst tissue leaking fluid...that's exactly what happens. THe bacteria multiply and consume the tissues around them, and release various g***es as waste, ultimately causing the afected leaves/tissues to burst and leak out fluid filled with bacteria and whatever leftover stuff that hasn't been consumed by the bacteria themselves. The gaseous waste is what gives the affected area that typical 'rot' smell. Inside the leaves of a plant, whic is essentially an aqueous environment, full of lovely nutritional substances like glucose and fructose and chlorophyll, bacteria can certainly have a population explosion from a very small colonization.

-Cj
Nice explanation. No wonder all the tissues turn mushy and die, the sad part is, the burst cells spread the bacteria to newer tissues and cause the infections to multiply rapidly.

What a horrible way to die. I am surprised that Phals have not develop a resistant to these bacteria from million of years of evolution.

Is there anything in the market that helps combat this problem aside from potting the plant on a slant?
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:17 AM
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sandra I guess your ex does not understand the love we have for our orchids
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:56 AM
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One of my phals had what I thought was crown rot, as a couple of center leaves turned brown and mushy. I removed them and dusted the center with cinnamon. Now about a year later it is growing a new leaf from the center. soooo maybe you didn't kill your phal. Take care of what remains and perhaps it too will grow new leaves as mine did. Just be patient.
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Old 09-12-2007, 02:12 AM
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what does cinnamon do for orchids?
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Old 09-12-2007, 06:14 AM
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I think majority of bacteria are opportunistic invaders. Many of them , including pathogenic ones, reside everywhere without causing any problems. When the host becomes vulnerable for any reason ( stress, malnutrition or lacerations) the bacteria may invade and cause problems , including death of the plants. Majority of infections in humans are caused by the 'harmless' bacteria found all over our body.

I believe some studies have shown that plants not only produce antibodies to these harmful bacteria they also communicate (pheromones?) with one another to inform the presence of an offensive 'strain'.

viper: cinnamon does not help the orchid but will hurt the bacteria. At least that is my understanding.

Unlike viruses there are very few bacteria that will respond to 'vaccines' as such.Bacterial vaccines usually target the production/release of harmful toxins by bacteria.

Healthy plants ,like healthy people or animals , will overcome any infection without succumbing to it.

At least I hope so!
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Old 09-12-2007, 07:24 AM
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thanks Pikevi. I am going to keep some spare cinnamon for my orchids.
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Old 09-12-2007, 07:47 AM
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mayres: this year it has been good as far as slugs are concerned. It may be due to the hot and dry summer we experienced here. I see them under the pots sometimes but the damage to the leaves has been minimal.

I hate to kill them since they look so defenceless but I help them to commit suicide

BEER is the answer!

Heineken for me and Labatts wildcat for them

BTW, how effective are the slug baits? I have never used them.

Thanks.
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:31 AM
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Pikevi I do some gardening on weekends and I use a slug bait called worry free. the main ingred. is Iron phosphate and is naturally found in the soil, It is harmless to people and other animals but when slugs and snails eat it they crawl away and die, I can say it does work because a few times a year the yards I do get a bad infestaion and I will sprinkler it around the base of the plants, and no more slugs/snails.
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Old 09-12-2007, 04:07 PM
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I might be wrong, but doesn't temperature play a role? I was under the impression that cold and wet is much worse than warm/hot and wet.
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:24 PM
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Thanks, MariahK.

I will check that out at local garden centres.

11Orchid126: It makes sense. Higher the temperature ,faster is the rate of evaporation.
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:28 PM
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No slugs/snails like it wet!!! they eat at night to avoid drying out I know cause it rains alot here and when it is overcast the little nasties come out!!!
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