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Old 08-12-2009, 02:41 PM
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Thumbs down And the Bad News

I have found three plant for which I need help. Lots of help, please.

The first plant is C. Royal Emperor 'Wade' (formerly Lc.). I just lost a Catt. NOID to what I think is a mold , and I want to know what I can do to save this one.
The NOID started with the new growth turning black and slimy and smearing off. I checked the roots and they were all dead. Then another psuedobulb turned black at the base of the leaf until the leaf fell off. I contacted the person I bought it from but they never replied. I read up on Geeks trying to find this and saw somewhere that this is called black mold and the only way to get it is to cut off the diseased part ahead of the mold and keep plant very dry. I tried that, cutting away as the black stuff progressed down the leaves and hoping I had gotten ahead of the mold, misting the green part to keep it hydrated, hoping it would grow roots but afraid to put it in a moist enviroment which would make the mold progress faster, until there was no leaves left attached. I got the Catt. in June and considered a gonner two days ago. I put all the dead parts in a sealed container to keep them from contaminating anything else and there appears to be grey mold growing on top of the black dead plant. (picture 1)

'Wade' just had one leaf turn black at the base and fall off today. It appears that the older half of the plant is affected (pic. 2). I have cut off the affected area and put cinnamon on the cut. (pic. 3) Since he is in s/h should I take him out? Is there anything else I can do to stop the spread of this?

When I checked the plant closely I found what appears to be a separate plant entangled with the first, so removed that and potted it up separately. Should I also be concerned about this plantlet developing mold? (pic. 4)

Also, what kind of quarantine should be set up for this, how does it spread and can other plants catch it?

Second plant is P. Sunrise Red Poker x (P. Golden Peoker x Sogo John). I had half of the new top leaf turn yellow/mushy so I cut it off, sprinkled a little cinnamon on the cut top and watched it. about a week later the rest of the leaf turned mushy also. I pulled out what I could, sprayed with Brookyn's bug killer mix and blew on it to dry it. Today the old top leaf had a mushy line right up the middle and came off.(pic. 5) I suspect it is crown rot, but is there anything I can do to save it? I sprayed it again with the soap/cinnamon/water recipie and cleaned and dried the hole with a q-tip. The rest of the leaves look ok (for now) and the bottom of the hole looks green. (Pic 6.) Is there any thing else I can do to help the plant?

The third plant (a NOID Phal.) has odd looking spots on the underside of the leaf. (Pic. 7) They are collapsed areas, yellow in color but do not seem to be causing any distress to the plant. There is a new leaf on top which looks fine, but the four older leaves all have these yellow dotty indents. (Pic. 8) It may be cold water or fertalizer damage from when I was spraying with a weak fertalizer solution, should this be cause for quarantine and concern?

Thanks for all your help in the past and sorry about the million questions. The Geeks have helped me keep my growing number of plants happy, and so I am happy. If there is anything different I should be doing to help any of these three, please let me know. I do want to learn.....

P.S. Just now am up to 107..... and counting.....

Dian
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Old 08-12-2009, 03:18 PM
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Oh WOW!!! I don't know where to start lol. By looking at the pictures it looks like a bacterial issues maybe, the one in the third & 4th picture looks definately saveable though , the 6th picture - well it has crown rot poor thing but don't give up on it it could grow another plant from the base or the inflorescence or something but I would check on the roots too , the 7th pic is that the same as in the 8th pic? As far as the leves having the funny colored spots on them I am not sure lol. But ret assured someone will come along with better advice than I can give you lol.
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Old 08-12-2009, 03:56 PM
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I've been dealing with a bad case of fusarium lately (i think so anyway). Due to my location there is a lack of means to fisght rot and disease, however I managed to get hold of some Topsin 70 (I think it may be banned in most countries for domestic use). Nasty stuff but so far it appears to have halted the problem. Is systemic so will attack the rot and fungus from the inside.

One that might be available is Kocide, this is Copper hydroxide based fungicide but be warned - some chids don't take copper too well, another option is Dragon's blood - if you can find it.

Last edited by balagan; 08-12-2009 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 08-12-2009, 04:46 PM
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Thanks kid a, I know I asked alot.

The one in the 7th and 8th pic are the same plant. One pic from below where the damage is most evident, and one from above, where it is not.

Roots on crown-rot Phal are fine and healthy. curently have two spikes, one with a flower still on it. I am hoping for either a kiki from the spikes or possibly a new growth from next to the damaged plant. I was wondering if there was anything I could put on the crown-rot area to stop further damage. Cinnamon would stop the growth, but it may not grow anyways. Would hydrogen peroxide be better?

About the first plant, Poor NOID, just got a reply today from the seller that it probably is exactly same thing as you said balagan. I know he is a gonner, I am just hoping I can find some solution so I don't loose the others.

I don't think I can find any big guns here, especially in California with our restrictions. Did you know you can't even buy a chemical which kills Pacific Coast borers here? And you can buy it in most other States.

Dragon's blood sounds like impossible (I think they are mythical, no? ) Now that I know it is a fungus, I can do more research and find out what I can get that will kill it.

Thanks.
Dian
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:35 PM
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I lost a pretty little Lc. loveknot to that rot. The "F" word mentioned above and it was quick and brutal. I kept cutting and it just kept killing. I don't know about the yellow on the bottom on the Phal leaves.
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Old 08-12-2009, 06:18 PM
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I agree that the "black mold" you describe actually was some kind of bacterial rot. I had that once on a catt, and just as you describe, I kept trying to cut off the diseased portion, but the rot was always ahead of me. The plant went from a couple of specks to total loss of leaves on one pb, and the pb itself in just a couple of days. You just can't get ahead of something that fast. I don't think even Dragon's Blood would help when a small plant gets that.

You asked how does it spread? Bacterial rots are water bourne, and they are all over. Splashing off an infected plant can infect others. So you were absolutely right to seal the thing off in a plastic bag. Get rid of it, and the medium it was in. Water that gets into the new growth on catts could also start it. Mine started after a week of rain.

I don't think you need "big guns". Since you aren't even sure what it is, that's like firing a gun into a dark room.

Physan 20 is a contact anti-bacterial/anti-fungal. It gives protection for about three days, but that's usually enough. And you can repeat if you want to. Spraying it on does not hurt the plants. It can also be used to disinfect surfaces.

So I'd suggest spraying all your other orchids with a dilute solution of Physan 20, then repeat in about 3 days. Water them first. While you're at it, spray the top of the medium, the pots, and whatever the pots are on. That should probably keep the rots (including the crown rot in the phal) from spreading.

If you don't have Physan, I think I've seen it at Home Depot. I keep some around in a spray bottle all the time and use it as a preventive when my orchids (or even just one) has been too wet for a while, as when there are a couple of days of rain, or water has stood in the crown of a phal for a while.

Your plants that haven't shown anything are probably ok , but be on the watch for a week or so. And make sure you get rid of every bit of rotten leaf.

Yellow leaves on phal: Can't be sure, but cold water can cause extensive damage to tissue. If that's what it is, it's not contagious, but be careful to use only lukewarm or room temp water on your 'chids.

Last edited by mehitabel; 08-12-2009 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 08-12-2009, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dendian View Post


Dragon's blood sounds like impossible (I think they are mythical, no? ) Now that I know it is a fungus, I can do more research and find out what I can get that will kill it.

Thanks.
Dian
You may be able to find in Cali easily in a hippie store or health food store. I have a bottle of dragon's blood used for fragrance for stinky hippies lol. But don't know if its good enough quality for use on orchids.
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Old 08-12-2009, 07:03 PM
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Thanks mehitabel,

I just ordered some Physan 20 online (could not find it around here at all) and was just wondering if that would help. Will be here 3-4 days so will keep eyes on all plants, and move that one to quarantine (both halves). I cut off the whole area where that P-bulb/leaf came off of, and put cinnamon on the cut.

Does keeping the plant dry help at all (i.e. not misting it, lowering humidity)? It does have a new growth coming out the other side, almost as large as the old leaf now. In s/h I was misting the tops of the media, but can stop for that plant if that will help slow the spread.

I will be very careful now not to pour any water over where those catts are growing, only on the side of the pot now. Haven't been all that careful before, just dumped water all over. Of course, with my low humidity they dry in about 20 mins. Also will cut back on misting them till I can sanitize.

That one was in the middle of the catts, so will watch them all now.

The dead and moldy one is in an airtight container, am taking it and new leaf/p-bulb to trash right after I post this. Till the Physan arrives, anything else I can use on plant? Cinnamon? Hydrogen Peroxide? Bleach?

Thanks again for all the help.

Dian.
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Old 08-12-2009, 07:27 PM
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Dendian, do you have a Worm's Way or other Hydroponics or (Weed Growers) store near you? They would have Physan20. That's where I get mine.

Bleach: I use bleach all the time on the concrete floor in my light room, but I never use it near plants, so I wouldn't. It always ends up splashing on things it shouldn't be on.

Peroxide: I use peroxide on seedlings and sicklies instead of physan, which I think is too strong for them, so it might help. Definitely will not hurt anything, and does tend to inhibit some rots anyway.

When I had the nasty galloping rot, it was after a week of dim and rain. The only catt that got it was a big, tall catt that was on the floor where it could be dripped on by other plants. The ones on the table were all ok. Not that that necessarily means anything It was also a bifoliate, so there was a place for water to collect on top of the pbs.

Air: If you can't find Physan locally, you will probably still be okay. For one thing, increase the air movement around your plants. Moving air "dilutes" the concentration of spores and bacteria, and plain blows some of them away. Let fresh air into the room when you can. That should help.

Misting: I would stop the misting for now, til you get the Physan. Justin Case, you know? If you want the top of your s/h pots to stay moist, put a thin layer of sphag over the pebbles. IMO, sphag inhibits rot, but it also keeps the moisture in the clay pebbles, so there's no need for misting. It also seems to encourage new roots to form (probably by raising the humidity around the root nubs)

I have also read that just letting the water in your hose or faucet run for a few minutes before taking the water you use for your orchids also helps (the stuff can be in the faucet or hose, they say)

Even if all this doesn't help, it will set your mind more at ease

Check out this website-- AOS page on diseases. They have an article on rot, also one on cold damage

AOS | Members Only Area

We've all been there, BTW

Last edited by mehitabel; 08-12-2009 at 07:37 PM.
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Old 08-16-2009, 02:46 PM
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Thought I'd update on what's going on with the plants.

All good news for now.

The bacterial rot does not appear to have spread, none of my other plants show any sign of it. Both plants from the original 'Wade' show no sign of it. So I think I caught this one in time. They are still in quarantine and will remain there for another week. I have put 'Wade' by the bedroom window (south side) where I open the window at night and have a fan blowing out the hot air. So far so good.

I will be going to a hydroponics place tomorrow to get the Physan 20. It is almost an hour drive but I finally found some.

I open the windows on my house to cool down at night, all the plants get lots of fresh air at night. And all plants have fans running during the day to move the warmer daytime air around.

The phal with crown rot seems to have dried up. I put hydrogen peroxide on it until it stopped bubbling, then dumped out any remaining moisture and let it dry. it is a dark grey but is not mushy. Another so far so good.

The third plant with the spots on the leaves has not had any changes in the leaves. The spike and the new leaf both are progressing rapidly, so that may be previous damage and may not change.

I really appreciate all the help I have been given with these. Thanks to you guys I went from panic to ok.


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Old 08-16-2009, 03:22 PM
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All sounds great, Dian. If that stuff was going to take hold of your other plants, it would have done so by now, so I think you're home free. It's what's called "opportunistic", meaning it's always there, just needs the right conditions to take hold.

The crown rot-- I hope you'll let us know if you get a basal keiki off that, maybe even several. What a joy that would be!

Air-- thats what Bob Gordon calls the "best preventive". Sounds like yours get plenty.

The spots that didn't grow (sounds like Sherlock Holmes, doesn't it?). Any spots that don't grow are terrific My leaves are always imperfect, and I usually don't know what's getting them, but if it isn't growing, that's okay

I'm glad it all worked out.
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