Cheap Agar Sub.

[dionysus]

i don't have the money (or patience)really to order agar, and i can't find it in stores, so can i use like jello, super vitamins and fertalizer to make an agar substitute? this is my first time doing orchid flasking, so could you also suggest an easy type of orchid to start with? thank you very much!

[tom499]

I'm only a student, but I've had experience in the art of doing things on the cheap, as it were

My advice would be is to wait and save (something i find really hard to do ) until you can afford to buy the best equipment that you need, because you will be alot more successful and get the results you want, compared to if you do half job, you will probably only get a half good result.

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by dionysus

i don't have the money (or patience)really to order agar, and i can't find it in stores, so can i use like jello, super vitamins and fertalizer to make an agar substitute? this is my first time doing orchid flasking, so could you also suggest an easy type of orchid to start with? thank you very much!

dionysus,

I agree with Tom. Since money is an issue with you, it's best to wait and save up, get the materials and equipment you need to do it right rather than waste what money you do spend on things like jello which aren't going to work.

I know you said you don't have the patience either but if you're going ot get into orchids you're going to have to develope some patience somewhere along the line. If you dont' have th epatience to save your money to get the proper equipment, are you going to have the patience to wait the year or more in-flask plus the 3-5+ years out of flask that it will take to grow the seedlings? Also have you successfully raised seedlings? That would be an important step before trying to flask your own orchids. What good is flasking orchids if you can't raise seedlings? Although your impatience will tell you otherwise, lack of knowledge and preperation is the fastest route to disaster with flasking.

Your question about which orchids are "easy" to flask suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of orchid culture. The reality of orchid growing is that every orchid can be "easy" or "difficult" to grow depending on how well you provide the cultural needs of the orchid. A good example is a Phalaenopsis. Many people on this forum do very well with Phals and find them "easy." What this means is that the conditions and care the members' provide are ideal for the Phals they are growing. There's somethign about my cnditions or care that isn't ideal for Phals and so I find Phals to be very "difficult."

Before attempting to flask any orchids, I aould strongly recommend:
1) finding out which orchids grow and bloom well in the conditions you provide (start saving your money for proper flasking materials).
2) raise a vew varieties of seedlings of the type of orchid you grow best (continue saving for proper flasking materials).
3) do your research and read a few different guides on how to flask (keep saving)
4) correspond/call/talk to people who have done flasking and ask lots of questions (keep saving money).

After all of this, then I'd think you'd be in good shape to try flasking your own orchids.

Good Luck and Happy New Year.

[fred]

very good advice you have posted Kevin
well said

[arleneg]

dionysus,

Hoosier Orchids sells flasking materials. However, you will still need a sterile environment to do your flasking in. Do ask/talk to someone who has done flasking. In the meantime, check out the flasking supply Hoosier offers. Maybe it's within you budget.

Hoosier Orchids : Supplies

[pikevi]

That is a great advice, kmarch.

I am myself one that expects fast results. Your advice applies to me too. Lately I have become quite patient,thanks to orchids

dionysus: I have no knowledge of the agar(s) used in orchid flasking. There are so many types of agars that are used specifically for certain purposes. Tobi can tell you more about the differences.

I assume orchid growers use nutrient agar that is predominantly of plant origin (algae-galactose & polysaccharides) with some nutrients added.

Gelatin is predominantly of animal origin (collagen) and contains high amount of proteins and amino acids. Commercial gelatin is made from pig skins , I think. With the basic knowledge I have about plants I doubt if gelatin will provide a good medium for flasking. That is my personal opinion based on the composition of the two. Jello is also articially sweetened with C6- and C12-sugars. So even if the chemical compostion is acceptable for seed growth the mere concentration of solubles will kill them by osmosis. At least that is what I think.

I am sure experienced growers of orchids can give you a better assessment on the use of "jello"

But if you want to try it that should be fine. But expect the worst and think about the effort you are going to put into flasking and see if it is worth it to take that chance.

I think it will be better to follow the advice of tom499 and kmarch.

Good luck.

[dionysus]

if i get a seend pod, i'll try using the proper way, and the hillbilly way to see which way works best for me, or even works at all. thanks

[Tobi]

Dionysus,
Just my input on this topic. There are countless numbers of flasking medias available
from home made ones to commerically prepared ones for sale. Since I personally have
not attempted flasking at this point, I can't recommend one over another. What
I can tell you is that sterile conditions are essential for successful flasking. Some people
use pressure cookers (which can be dangerous if you are not familiar with using them)
and home made glove boxes that have been disinfected with a bleach spray for their
setups. I personally would not attempt to do this without using an autoclave and a
laminar flow cabinet for maximum sterilization technique. From what I have read, the
flow cabinet is one of the most important features in preventing contamination.
I agree with the other members in that I would save up until I was able to obtain
most of the critical items that I would need for a successful flasking. If you still want
to proceed, then good luck and keep us posted with your results.

[dionysus]

will definitely do. and have a happy new year!

[PhalPal]

I was going to add that a basic working knowledge of sterile technique would be crucial. Do you know Finding a good medical supply store for sterile gloves, drapes, etc would be handy. I would also think that over-the-counter gelatin, which will most certainly contain either a sugar or protein. Both are excellent sources of food for bacteria and could easily contaminate your collection.

[exasperatus2002]

for the cost of start up I'll be sending my pods in for someone else to do.

[dionysus]

okay, i saw this on ebay (and won it). it was a total culture kit including cypripedium parviflorum seeds. i also bought some vuylstekeara and odontoglossum seeds to try. because the cyp. seeds are so numerous, i will try my concoction on it.

i think that the gelatin could be easily sterilized, just as agar is done. if anything, just boil or microwave it, without the seeds inside of course.

[dionysus]

do you think that FUZE bottles would be a good container for flasking? they are a glass bottle about 7in tall with a 3 1/2in diameter bottom and a 1in top with a metal cap. i attached a pic if that helps any.

[kmarch]

Can they be completely sealed so that no contaminants can enter the bottle once sterilized? And if so how do you plan on sealing the bottles?

[cindiras]

Instead of gelatin, try potato starch for your homemade agar solution.

[dionysus]

the bottles can be totally sealed, but as an extra measure, i can hot glue the cap on adn melt, pick ti off when i want to open it(or break the bottle as i have been told to do).

i like th potato starch idea. i think that it might be too putty like though and not enough like jelly. btw, i plan to use unflavored or colored gelatin.

[kmarch]

Dear dionysus,

Is there a reason you can't just save up your money and learn to do it properly? How are you going to ensure a sterile environment inside the bottle without the proper equipment/supplies? Are you consulting reliable texts on flasking techniques? Are you speaking with experienced flaskers? I notice you've not answered my earlier questions about whether you have raised seedlings which will be a vital step in this process.

A number of members and moderators have given you sound advice which will save you money (since you point out that money is tight for you), time, and frustration with unsuccessful attempts. They have indicated the specific problems resulting from your plan to use gelatin yet you've decided to use it anyway. It still seems like you're not grasping some of the fundamentals of flasking. For example you say you'll sterilize the gelatin and you can seal the bottle but do you realize that all the contents of the flask, including the agar, the seed, and the air inside the bottle must be sterile and that the bottle must be sealed in a completely sterile environment? Do you realize (as members have shared with you) that gelatin does not contain the nutrients orchid seeds need in order to germinate and grow?

It seems strange to me that you ask for members' advice then turn around and dismiss it, opting to move ahead with a problematic plan that several have indicated will probably not be successful. Why not take members' advice and do it properly and increase both your knowledge of the process and your chances for success? Why not take the time to do it properly?

[PhalPal]

In a way, flasking is even more difficult then sterilizing for surgery. In surgery, we were concerned with sterile instruments, sterile hands, sterile surgical site. We didn't need to sterilize the air and massive antibiotics were given just in case something was missed.

Dionysus you have some very experienced growers giving you common sense advice; I would listen to them. You seem to be totally dismissing what they have to say when they are sincerely trying to help you.

[pikevi]

Dionysus: If you are just curious about flasking there is no harm in trying it but expect the worst. It seems that the majority of the experts don't agree with you. I don't know much about the methods and materials used in flasking and hence cannot give you any specific advice. Good luck.

PhalPal: Just to add a bit on sterilization of OR/OTs. The ORs are kept at around 20C or less and most of the pathogenic bacteria thrive between the temps. of 25-39C. That in itelf acts as a deterrent for bacterial multiplication.I am sure Tobi will agree on that. Also the flow of (filtered) air is kept unidirectionally so that there is no "turbulence" inside the room to mix the fresh and stale air thus not allowing bacteria to 'disperse'.

As you said the post-operative infections are caused primarily by the patients themselves and secondarily by the surgical staff (including the surgeons) and that is why non specific 'broad spectrum' antibiotics are used following any surgical procedure.

It appears that flasking requires a cleaner environment than a surgical room!!