Is There Any Argument Against Using S/H?

[Rivka]

so i have done all the reading and have finally decided to switch over to s/h. i have spent the week replanting all my plants before the growing season slows. so far so good.

but in the whole thing i keep wondering... except for a few types that are known not to like it and true terrestrials of course, is there any good reason not to use s/h?

it seems so much better in so many ways, granted i'm a newbie at all this.

[jerrymeola]

The only real drawback I have found with S/H is that newly potted plants are not stable in the pots. My customers with children and pets who would knock the plants around did not do well. After all you can not give up on the children and pets.

Remember s/h needs regular fertilizer since th e medium is sterile,

[tom499]

I have found that Paphiopedilum aren't keen on the media.

Many of the new roots stunt.

Cattleyas and Phalaenopsis seem to love it though.

[mehitabel]

I'm pretty sure this post will be controversial, and set off a barrage of posts contradicting it. But despite my desire to be loved by all, I'm going to post it anyway. I think it's way overdue.

S/h has a lot of fans, and unfortunately some of the enthusiasm leads to claims that simply aren't true for everyone. S/h is not the be-all, "you can't overwater" medium some people claim it to be. Or that some newbies (such as I) hoped it would be. I've seen some people thoughtlessly claim "You can come home in the dark in winter and water your orchids in s/h and there won't be any problems". NOT

It really is true that some orchids thrive in it, with huge, beautiful rootballs,
BUT it's also true that other orchids don't. You definitely *can* over-water with it, especially in winter. Also, it is not the perfect medium for everyone/every condition. For some people/conditions it works great, may even be perfect. But for others, not.

I am one who failed with it, so you can take this with a grain of salt. In no way am I claiming that this would be everyone's experience. But there is so much talk about s/h, so many newbies panting to try it, that maybe it's time this was said:

It doe not work for everyone or all conditions. I tried it as a newbie, mostly because it was being heavily pushed as a be-all, and I was afraid I wouldn't get the watering right. Like most newbies, I didn't have the confidence in what I was doing, and I foolishly believed the "be-all" claims. Tut tut. I'm smart enough not to buy London Bridge, so I should have been smarter than that. But I wasn't.

I continued with it for several years, and did not succeed with it despite every effort. I have been a gardener for over 40 years. I'm a really good observer, and a careful studier, both of literature and of plants. I have all the good instincts of a natural born gardener and plants person. But I only succeeded with orchids when I gave s/h up. It's possible that I would have succeeded had I tried it later in my orchid history, but we'll never know about that.

My experience: I had catts, phals, oncids. Mostly they thrived outdoors in summer, but the winters did them in. I believe it was because the root area stays a bit colder than bark or CHC. At least when I upended a pot full of moist hydroton in my plant room, it felt very cold to the touch.

My orchids winter in a basement plant room under 400 watt HID, and keeping the basement at 60, I got serious declines in every type over the winter, especially but not exclusively, phals. The declines didn't begin until Jan or Feb, so it was a cumulative effect of stress on them over several months.

After three years I realized I wasn't getting anywhere-- all summer spent recovering from last winter, then into another decline as winter came on? What was the point? And there wasn't. Fortunately, instead of giving up on orchids, I gave up on s/h instead.

I'm not trying to bash s/h. It's a great medium for some people. But any newbie expecting it to solve all their growing problems is in for a lot of heartache.

[Tarad]

YEp if you knock it over the little balls roll ALLL over the place. ARGH.
Other than that I have phals and it seems to be working ok on my two that I started it in. Tara

[Bird Song Farm]

Well stated mehitabel. I expect to have trouble with it (s/h) this winter and am racking my mini sized brain on how to keep the temp up for the plants and still not go bankrupt with the heating bill. Any suggestions welcome except for the obvious one of moving the plants out of s/h. (well over 100)
Al

[syndywindy]

Originally Posted by jerrymeola

After all you can not give up on the children and pets.

,

Gee and that seems like such a good solution sometimes!lol Actually, I have most of my orchids in S/H right now with the exception of my phals. I had heard they either love it or hate it and mine are very happy in their bark, so I decided to leave them be. With the exception of one plant that I'm watching try to recover from black rot, all are thriving in S/H. Alot of new growth, and very fat healthy roots. I fertilize every 2 weeks weakly. The only downfall I have is if the pot is knocked over, it is a royal pain you know where to find and pick up all those pellets.

[mehitabel]

Al, you could try those heating mats used for sprouting seedlings. I actually thought often about trying them, just couldn't get myself to spend that much $$ on an "if".

But I do have a small heat mat that I have occasionally put a few orchids on and measured the temperature with and without a humidity dome. Even without a humidity dome, the temperature *at leaf level* is higher, even toasty under lights.

If you have a lot of orchids, you will have to put out some $$ for the pad, heating cable etc etc.

Syndy-- take the time to write an abbreviated name on the underside of a leaf in indelible marker on your s/h plants. Otherwise, one wind storm = dozens of NOIDs.

[syndywindy]

Originally Posted by mehitabel

Syndy-- take the time to write an abbreviated name on the underside of a leaf in indelible marker on your s/h plants. Otherwise, one wind storm = dozens of NOIDs.

You suggested that to me in an earlier thread and I did it. so far I've only had to right a couple pots. My problem seems to be a squirrel who likes the bench my orchids are on. almost every morning I find nuts scattered among them. 2 days ago I found the top to a hamburger bun! I moved the bench to see if that would discourage him, but there must be something appealing.go figure!

[Leathal]

Although I live in the SW, I am doing an experiment with one I divided. I planed one in bark media and the other in S/H. Both are getting new roots and throwing off new stems. Maybe S/H works better for those with a warm climate year round? In the winter, when the nights get to 40 something once in a while, I will bring them in until the daytime/night time warms back up. I am so far pleased with S/H

[Riona]

My customers with children and pets who would knock the plants around did not do well.

Just had to laugh about that. I've got a parrot who is constantly into EVERYTHING, and yet she hasn't knocked over any of my pots(she does enjoy chewing on the leca if I'm not watching her closely enough though ) yet I've knocked probably half of them over considering how much of a klutz I am! One thing I've found(the only thing, really) that I am not a huge fan of is that the ones with longer roots seem to go dry very quickly(I live in the desert) meaning I need to water them a lot more frequently. Of course I'd need to do that in regular orchid bark too.

[Rivka]

Originally Posted by Leathal

Although I live in the SW,

hahaha, when you say "SW", all those of use that don't live in Florida think Arizona or something.

Originally Posted by mehitabel

Syndy-- take the time to write an abbreviated name on the underside of a leaf in indelible marker on your s/h plants. Otherwise, one wind storm = dozens of NOIDs.

i have been thinking of that, and was thinking of putting a small tag that wrapped around a lower stalk and had a number on it, and that number could be referenced to my master list of orchids that i keep on my computer.
in general, some way to identify seems important.

[mehitabel]

Hi, Rivka. Yes, you really do need something marking each plant, just in case, for wind storms. Orchids planted in bark *may* stay in their pots when the pot or the table they are on goes over in a wind. But plants in s/h are scattered all over, so you have a bunch of empty pots and a bunch of plants. Which goes with which?

Happened to me two years running. You end up with dozens of Noids. One or two is bad enough, and you possibly could figure it out when they bloom. But in s/h it's way too many in a storm, and no hope of getting it all right.

And oh, yes, tiptoeing thru the pellets... And for hydroton, trying to sweep them up! !!! They just bounce right of the dust pan, some of them time after time after time.

[Rivka]

i know we dont want to seal the top of the pots off to air circulation, but im wondering if some sort of screen material might be able to be stretched over it and protect them. it could be a pretty big open screen, something about 1/4" would catch everything before it fell out and i cant see it slowing down air flow.

something i will think about.

[jay]

Rivka - very interesting idea. I find that once the plants take off they LECA is sealed in. I have dozens of plants that I can pick up by the plant without moving any of the LECA. In the beginning it is a pain though as they shift and move with every watering.

I agree with what mehitabel said, it is not a save all end all method to growing orchids. It is a method that has worked very well for me over the past 2 years or so, but it is not for everyone. I have found that some orchids do better than others in the method. Cattleya type orchids, Oncidium, Phragmepidium, and Catasetinae do extremely well. I have mixed results from Paphiopedilums. Sitting right next to each other, I have some that are thriving with roots diving into the water and moving all around, and then I have some that are sulking. I have moved my Maudiae type back into moss. I just couldn't get that one to work in S/H. I also moved some of my more delicate species/hybrids (Paph. malipoense and Paph. Dollgoldi) back into bark mixture. These were doing Ok in S/H, but were very slow and would lose a leaf with every new leaf. The move was recent, so I don't know yet if it was successful.

In my climate, I will swear by S/H when it comes to Cattleya and Catasetinae though. These water loving orchids seem to thrive in it. My Catasetinae have very large plump bulbs with massive root growth. I am learning that I have been over potting my Catasetinae for the massive root growth and I now don't think it is necessary. I plan on downsizing the pots next growing season to see if after the roots max out if I will get larger and happier plants. Besides, if they do better in smaller pots I can have more on my shelf.

[Rivka]

its intersting, most folks will say "its not for everyone"
but most don't give a clear reason why? not that I'm arguing at all, just wanting to get details

not to pin you folks down, but can you give an example why someone would not want to use S/H? i think this tread can be a useful tool for those that are thinking of switching over to it, so they can see both sides and make there choice more educated.

[Rivka]

Originally Posted by jay

Rivka - very interesting idea. I find that once the plants take off they LECA is sealed in. I have dozens of plants that I can pick up by the plant without moving any of the LECA. In the beginning it is a pain though as they shift and move with every watering.

good to know that they do lock in at some point with root growth, i figured they would, specially the ones with more medium size roots. though i would think there will always be a few loose ones on the very top and very bottom. but at least it will get t o a manageable level.

[vcuchick]

Not good for someone who doesn't want to deal with extra fertilizers and watering every day to 2 days...3 at the most. S/H can something grow algea (especially you guys up the the PNW) but there's ways to get around that...

[mehitabel]

"Not for everyone".

Everyone has a different climate, microclimates, grows in house, basement or greenhouse, in windows or under lights or outdoors in a benign climate which is either humid or dry. Keep their homes warm or cold. Etc, etc, etc.

They have different orchid histories, habits, preferences, liking for watering. Grow different kinds of orchids. Have different personalities, carefulness, liking for precision, cautiousness, etc etc.

Stands to reason one type of medium can't suit everyone. No one can say whether or why it will or won't work for someone.

However, a lot of people seem to assume it is a cure-all and works for all. Caution about assuming this is all we can give you. In fact, it was the whole point of my first post.

[Rivka]

ok i know that no one media even and maybe especially s/h can be said to be the best for every orchid or every grower.

but what can we tell folks so that they can figure out if it is right for them?
we talk about how to set up a pot, but not really how to decide if you should do it at all.

Watering? this is a good example.
Do most folks find that in the same category of plant and same environment, it take watering more often as vcuchick mentions, or less?

Fertilizing?
is weekly, weakly the same basic need, or should folks expect to have to change that schedule?

i guess i'm wanting a pro an on list of actual things that folks can see if it is right for them or their plants, understanding that there are so many variables that some large amount of trial and error is always going to occur

[Ray]

I would like to point out that there are circumstances in which everything stated so far is correct, and others where it "ain't necessarily so".

The most significant "truism" in my mind is that it is just another culture technique - much like mounting versus pot culture - not the "be all, end all." Anyone who claims it is is an overzealous, and maybe even a fool (I'll let you decide).

With the exception of tolumnias, have not heard of a single plant that cannot be grown in s/h culture (not that I can grow them all, mind you). Please note that it is a whole different culture method, not just a medium.

There are SO many factors that define "orchid culture", that attributing success or failure to the medium/pot/watering combination is a bit naive. If someone is committed to using sphagnum because of the ease of potting, they will adjust their culture to make sure they don't overwater, compress the moss, and suffocate their plants' roots. Use straight bark for everything, and you need to adjust your watering schedule accordingly. Likewise when considering semi-hydroponics, there are adjustments that have to be made.

• The medium is not compressible, so you cannot anchor plants by compressing the medium about the roots. You must wait for the plant to do that itself.
• Evaporative cooling from the very open, airy medium may affect root zone temperatures, especially in dry growing environments. Heat mats (not all that expensive) really do help getting plants established, and can help warm-growers thrive in what might be cool, dry, winter environments.
• The change from traditional culture methods is fairly drastic, so root replacement and overall accustomization of the plant is likely more extreme than with other changes. It IS a requirement of all transplantation, not just into S/H.

Once a plant has been transitioned into the S/H environment - if it is maintained properly - it IS impossible to overwater. Think about it: the root system is growing nicely in a constantly moist, airy environment. Water it, and nothing has changed.

OK, so a plant might be wobbly when first transplanted into LECA. So anchor it!

OK, LECA is like ball bearings when spilled. So be careful and creative and don't let that happen.

I don't know about you folks, but my decades of orchid growing have helped my patience and my creativity in finding ways to adjust my habits to meet those of the plants under my conditions. Why would one expect differently of semi-hydroponics?

I think what has happened is that many folks who had no concept of air management when dealing with their orchids' root systems suddenly didn't have to worry about it when their plants were established in s/h. They attributed their success to the medium, the pot, whatever - but never stopped to understand the underlying reasons for the improvements, which could have been accomplished in any other number of ways.

[Rivka]

thanks ray, you bring up good points,
can you explain why air is so important to s/h?
Any more so than with any orchid culture?
I would think that just by the nature of the media they are already getting more air than they would in bark, spag or other things.
I get why air is important for orchids in general and in making our growing more like the nature growth as we can.

[Sugar Magnolia]

I just switched a bunch of my orchids over to s/h, and while I just learned yesterday that knocking one over = picking up all the balls (hydroton), It actually works better for me as all I had to pick up was that and a little spill of water. I didn't have to vacuum and that made me very happy. If they were outdoors, I could definately see how that would just stink! I also like it, so far, because I have such a watering issue - my own personal issue, but one nonetheless. I am never sure how well watered they all are. I know about the bamboo skewer method of checking..which is good, but I like to actually see it with my eyes. The hydroton isn't crazy expensive, and I posted yesterday a set of pics of my dollar store finds for pots which I drilled holes in. So give it a try! I did about 13 orchids yesterday and it costed me about $35, so it's not a huge investment if I don't like it. Can't wait to see how it works out for you!

Oh, and I filled the containers about halfway, placed the roots in, added more hydroton, held the plant stable and banged it on the counter a few times to wiggle all the balls between the roots to hold it it good. Very precise method I have, I know, but they turned out quite stable.

[Ray]

Rivka, I feel that air management is the most important factor in all orchid growing, and is no more important in S/H culture, but it is - as you pointed out - pretty much automatic in S/H, which is why the plants can thrive with "wet feet".

In more "traditional" orchid culture, using organic media components with less controllable sizes and shapes, the air flow to the root system is more stifled, so one must focus more attention on watering so we don't accidentally/unknowingly clog up the pathways with bridging water droplets. It is the poor effort there, and the misinterpretation of what's really happening, that led to the "overwatering causes rot" myth. Many orchids in nature stay saturated for months at a time without issues.

I think growing orchids on mounts is the best way - no issues with air flow then! - but for the average grower it presents all sorts of watering issues. I would estimate that less than 5% of my collection is mounted, and I have a very well-controlled greenhouse environment, and I still have issues sometimes.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by Sugar Magnolia

I filled the containers about halfway, placed the roots in, added more hydroton, held the plant stable and banged it on the counter a few times to wiggle all the balls between the roots to hold it it good. Very precise method I have, I know, but they turned out quite stable.

I find that to be a very practical way to pot up plants, although, since my pots tend to be more flexible than your recent purchase, I "knead" them as well to get the particles in the root ball.

What we really need is a vibrating table - anchor the plant to the pot walls with clips, set it on the "dance floor", and let 'er rip!

[Sugar Magnolia]

Originally Posted by Ray

I find that to be a very practical way to pot up plants, although, since my pots tend to be more flexible than your recent purchase, I "knead" them as well to get the particles in the root ball.

What we really need is a vibrating table - anchor the plant to the pot walls with clips, set it on the "dance floor", and let 'er rip!

[Rivka]

When I was potting into s/h I found two thngs that helped secure things:

I started by potting the plant lower than I need and after filling it up with leca I jiggle the plant up to the final level. I think this spread the roots out a bit more.
Then after that I fill the pot totally up with water (I place the pot with holes in a second pot without holes), after I had put plant and leca in to its final level, once it is full of water it let's me jiggle (and knead) it a lot more effectvely. And I would keep jiggling it as it drained too, this seemed to get me my most secure plants.
Thought I would share.

Oh and the few plants I had with a big ball of fine roots I actully flipped the plant over and filled in the root ball with the leca balls before placeing it all in the pot of the rest of the leca. Otherwise I worried about a airspace or just smooshng all the roots together.

[jay]

Here is an example of a plant being anchored in the LECA.

This is from the Epiphyte division project. It has been in S/H for about a year after getting new roots started in sphagnum moss. You can see in the picture that I am holding it from an old bulb and it is not moving at all in the pot. I find that in time most of your orchids will get like this.

[Sugar Magnolia]

Originally Posted by jay

Here is an example of a plant being anchored in the LECA.

This is from the Epiphyte division project. It has been in S/H for about a year after getting new roots started in sphagnum moss. You can see in the picture that I am holding it from an old bulb and it is not moving at all in the pot. I find that in time most of your orchids will get like this.

Niiiice! One day maybe all my lil babies will do that!

[Irene]

I just did my first S/H pots. Just a couple to see how it goes. To stablize, I put the stake in the pot before filling up with clay. Get the Clay to the right height, put in plant against the stake, and fill the rest of the way. Stake is wedged in the clay and can support a shaky plant.