Creating a Hybrid

[jay]

I have many questions and hope that someone can lead me in the right direction.

Given:
I have a Paph. lowii and a Paph. primulinum var. album that I want to cross. The lowii is at least a second year bloomer and in bloom right now. The primulinum is blooming size and could bloom this year.

Question #1
Which should be the pod parent? I know that it can make a difference in some since one is sequential and one is multi-floral.

Question #2
Should I wait until the primulinum is older? As far as timing, I could harvest the pollen right now from the lowii and pollinate the primulinum when it blooms.

Question #3
Has Paph. Mamie Wilson (lowii x primulinum) been done with an album form? Also, which is the pod parent? I know the order tells this, but I can't remember.

This is it for now, but I am sure I will have many more questions.

[exasperatus2002]

While I have no experience with Paphs, I am working on my first hybrid in the Cattleya alliance. Each parent will pass on different characteristics when used as either pod or pollen plant. Whats been recommended to me is to save the pollinia from both of them and try them both as pod & pollen plants. You may get something from one that you wouldnt have the other way. Store the pollinia in a coffee filter in a cool, dry place. use a dessicant packet to keep it dry if possible. I was told (atleast with Catts) that it can take a week for flower to be mature enough to accept pollination. But I did mine when it was only open for 3 days and of the two flowers, only one took. Good luck!

[jay]

Does anyone know which would make a better pod parent, the lowii or the primulinum?

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by jay

I have a Paph. lowii and a Paph. primulinum var. album that I want to cross.
Question #1
Which should be the pod parent? I know that it can make a difference in some since one is sequential and one is multi-floral.

It depends on what you want to achieve. If you want a smaller plant habit perhaps choose the primulinum as the pod parent. Neither of these plants needs to be really big to bloom so I bet it won't make much difference. i grow lowii, prinulinum, primulinum alba and Mamie Wilson and of all of those, the regular primulinum seems to be the fastest grower. Of course the growth rate can be affected by environmental things as well as genetic so...

Originally Posted by jay

Question #2
Should I wait until the primulinum is older? As far as timing, I could harvest the pollen right now from the lowii and pollinate the primulinum when it blooms.

Paphs often bloom better on their second blooming, and a more mature plant is usually stronger, actually this is true for a lot of orchids, so you could wait. On the other hand you could probably pollinate now too.

Originally Posted by jay

Question #3
Has Paph. Mamie Wilson (lowii x primulinum) been done with an album form? Also, which is the pod parent? I know the order tells this, but I can't remember.

When it was registered, Mamie Wilson used lowii as the pod parent. I do not know if it has been made using an alba primulinum. I would imagine the difference would not amount to much given the rather subtle difference between primulinum and primulinum alba. To my knowledge lowii var. alba does not exist. I've only ever encountered very vague threads of anecdotal evidence and have never seen anything substantial.

[jay]

Kevin - thanks for the information. Maybe I will harvest the pollen from my lowii now and then from the primulinum later and trade.

As for the albino lowii, this is the only one that I found at Orchid Inn.

It is only for sale in flasks, the small flask (10-12 plants) is $350 US.

I think this could make an incredible Mamie Wilson, but it is going to be a little bit of a wait on that one.

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by jay

Does anyone know which would make a better pod parent, the lowii or the primulinum?

Usually the choice of pod parent is determined by what you hope to accomplish by the cross. For example if one parent is an easy bloomer and one a tough bloomer oyu might choose the easy bloomer as the pod parent in the hope that the offspring will be easier bloomers. If one parent is BIG and the other is small you might want to choose the small plant as the pod parent in the hope that the offspring will have a better amount-of-flowers-to-size-of-plant ratio.

I greatly appreciate the info on the lowii var. alba! I know Sam and he is a connoisseur to be sure. It's great knowing something today that you didn't know yesterday!

[jay]

Thanks for the info Kevin. I think I will collect the pollen from my lowii now and pollinate the primulinum var. album later. I think I will get some pollen from the primulinum before pollinating it so that I can pollinate the lowii on its next blooming.

This could be fun to see the difference between to crosses of the same parent.

[made4engineering]

Well guys... I have to say that I doubt which plant carries the pod will matter at all. Plants do not differ in the type of genetic material carried in the egg or sperm (yes, sperm). The only extra contribution by the egg is the cellular organelles, eg. chloroplasts.

[kmarch]

I understand your point made4, yet there are differences, at least in paphs, in outcomes based on which parent is the pod parent. Jason & Jerry Fischer are remaking some of the Brachy/Cory crosses using the Brachy as the pod parent and they are proving to grow and bloom faster than the notoriously difficult-to-bloom versions using rothschildianum as the pod parent.

[patticake]

I know this is like comparing apples to oranges but, I know that with african violets, it makes a difference. If you want a violet with a variegated foliage- the seed parent must be variegated also to carry that on. I'm just learning about orchid hybridization and loving it!

[made4engineering]

Hmmm.. well now that i think about it a little more... I guess Im pretty much wrong, since chloroplasts do carry their own DNA and can greatly affect the growth of the plants, since they are the energy producing ..uhh.. thingies. And Patticake, you're right about the variegation.. the variegation is simply a lack of chloroplasts in some tissues of the plant...

[patticake]

Made4- Does that include the pink variegation, too?

[jay]

Ok, so I have successfully harvested 4 pollen pods from my Paph. lowii. They are in a coffee filter, which is in a plastic container, which has a silica dryness packet, which is in the refrigerator.

Now for that Paph primulinum var. alba to go into bloom and the experiment can continue.

When the primulinum does bloom I will update the pollination. It will also be the reverse of the normal Paph Mamie Wilson (lowii x primulinum), lowii is usually the pod parent.

Keep your fingers crossed that the pollen will be ok for a while.

[made4engineering]

Nice avatar pic Jay... I would totally get me one of those if it werent way too big for my epiphyte space.
And Patticake, pink variegation is just like regular variegation, except the leaves have a pink undertone to them that only can be seen when the chloroplasts are missing. Variegation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by jay

...pollen pods...

If it interests you, the name for those little sacs of pollen are pollinia (plural) or pollinium (singular). Pollinia....hehe, always reminds me of polenta for some reason, which I like...yummy.

[jay]

Thanks Kevin for the correct terminology. Now I just need another flower to cross it with. I have two other paphs in bloom, but I don't think they would mix well.

And polenta is starting to sound good for dinner tonight.

[kmarch]

What are the other two paphs you have in bloom?

[jay]

Actually, what would happen if a big complex Paph was crossed with a little sequential?

I am curious how all of this works. Here is what I have in bloom. Photos below.

Paph. lowii

Paph. Sorcerer's Stone

Paph. Druid Spring (druryi x primulinum)

If Druid Spring was crossed with Sorcerer's Stone would you get little round sequential flowers?

What about lowii x Druid Spring?

I am very intrigued by the hybridizing process and would love to hear from someone who knows more.

[patticake]

This is awesome, Jay- I have one question- Why are the seeds in the refridgerator? Is this something that is done with orchid seeds? I've never done any hybridizing with orchids, so I'm new to this aspect of it.

[jay]

Well, I have read that is how you save them if you are waiting for a specific flower to pollinate. I was going to pollinate my Paph. primulinum var. album when it blooms later this year. I could always use one of them with the Paph. Druid Spring.

I wonder if that has been done yet? I am sure there is somewhere I can look. Time to do some google searches.

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by jay

Actually, what would happen if a big complex Paph was crossed with a little sequential?

I'm probably overgeneralizing a bit but complex paphs often contribute fullness and roundness and sometimes various patterns and colours

The sequentials often impart rippled petals sometimes speckles or spots on the petals and sometimes colour, especially the pink-pouched ones. They also tend to impart a bulbousness to the pouch.

Originally Posted by jay

If Druid Spring was crossed with Sorcerer's Stone would you get little round sequential flowers?

I think it is safe to say you would not. The offspring would be only 1/4 primulinum. I think you would be more likely to geet somethign with a big yellow-green dorsal probably bigger than Druid Spring but not as big as Sorcerer's Stone, possibly with the brown central stripe. It would be really cool if the result were the white and green dorsal like the Sorcerer's Stone with a chocolate brown stripe down that middle. My eye would appreciate that.

The petals would probably have some rippling to them, would probably be wider than DS but not as wide as SS, hopefully larger than an average of the 2.

The pouch would probably be greenish-yellow and midway between the 2 parental pouches.

Originally Posted by jay

What about lowii x Druid Spring?

Paph lowii hybrids often have a brownish pouch, usually longer than wide. The petals should be longer than the DS and would hopefully pick up a little colour. I think the dorsal would look somewhat Mamie Wilson-ish.

------------

Personally I think the Druid Spring x Sorcerer's Stone would be an interesting line of breeding if for no other reason than to (hopefully) impart an interesting colour/marking element into the dorsal. I had a lot of time on my hands this afternoon and decided I would try to Photoshop an example of what I would hope for from the Druid Spring x Sorcerer's Stone cross. The faked cross is attached.

I'd suggest one of the following cool names:
Paph Druid's Stone
Paph Sorcerer's Spring
Paph Stone Druid

[jay]

Kevin - thanks for the advice. I really like your photoshop. Now if hybridizing was really that easy. That really does have some neat potential. I think I may have to try that. I will let you know if it takes.

I think I may trade pollen both ways to see what will happen. Or do you think I should use just one of them as the pod parent?

[jay]

A second thought on the matter.

Kevin - you said the sequential probably wouldn't come through because the plant would only be 25% primulinum. Wouldn't the same be true for the dark stripes since they are from the Paph. druyi, which would only represent 25% as well.

Also, how do I find the parentage/lineage of the Paph. Sorcerer's Stone? I think some use the RHS, but I can't seem to figure it out.

Thanks for your help.

[jay]

Ok Kevin, I have given it a try to see if we can get that nice stripe on the big complex.

I crossed it so both would be a pod parent to see the differences.

I guess time will tell if we get anything from these two.

Paph Sorcerer's Stone x Druid Spring.

Is the first one listed the pod parent?

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by jay

I think I may trade pollen both ways to see what will happen. Or do you think I should use just one of them as the pod parent?

I'd trade. That way if one doesn't take you'll still have somethign and if they both take you can compare.

Originally Posted by jay

Kevin - you said the sequential probably wouldn't come through because the plant would only be 25% primulinum. Wouldn't the same be true for the dark stripes since they are from the Paph. druyi, which would only represent 25% as well.

Let me clarify. When I said you would not get sequential flowers I specifically meant that you would not get a sequential blooming habit, one flower after another month after month. Characteristics of the primulinum would certainly come through. I mentioned I suspected the rippled petals, not twisted but probably somewhat rippled, would come through, a characteristic of the primulinum, as well as possibly slightly smaller flower and gellow-green tones.

Also at play here is the degree of dominance exhibited by various traits. Different traits are expressed to varying degrees. For example, you may remember my Paph Florento which I posted some time back. This primary hybrid was a cross between a sequential (chamberlainianum) and a multifloral (kolopakingii). Looking at 2 different traits, pouch colour and sequential blooming habit, we find that one trait from the sequential bloomer (the reddish pouch) came through very strongly (kolopakingii has a pointed tan-coloured pouch) while the other trait, the sequential blooming habit came through only slightly, the 3 flowers opened one at a time but were all open at the same time eventually, afterwhich the inflorescence died off and did not continue to bloom as a sequential would.

That chocolate dorsal stribe from the Paph druyi, seems to be a strong trait and I've seen more than a few complex paphs with those central chocolate stripes.

Originally Posted by jay

Also, how do I find the parentage/lineage of the Paph. Sorcerer's Stone? I think some use the RHS, but I can't seem to figure it out.

Well I use the RHS database. The parents of Sorcerer's Stone are:
Pacific Shamrock x Stone Lovely

[Don1]

I don't know if this will help but I always like to look at what has been done so far with crosses. Paph lowii has 110 AOS awards and has 76 F1 offspring. It is a multifloral paph. which means multiple flowers on each inflorescence. Paph primulinum has 27 AOS awards and 145 F1 offspring. Paph primulinum is a sequential bloomer. The cross is named Paph Mamie Wilson and was made in 1994. It has no awards and 1 F1 offspring.

This data is about Paph primulinum and not an alba variation so the crossing of the alba variation may produce significantly different color variations.

[exasperatus2002]

Originally Posted by Don1

I don't know if this will help but I always like to look at what has been done so far with crosses. Paph lowii has 110 AOS awards and has 76 F1 offspring. It is a multifloral paph. which means multiple flowers on each inflorescence. Paph primulinum has 27 AOS awards and 145 F1 offspring. Paph primulinum is a sequential bloomer. The cross is named Paph Mamie Wilson and was made in 1994. It has no awards and 1 F1 offspring.

This data is about Paph primulinum and not an alba variation so the crossing of the alba variation may produce significantly different color variations.

How did you find out this info? Im curious what my orchids have.

[tizzycat]

I find this all really, really fascinating and hope that one day somewhere down the line I will have the confidence and expertise to follow in Jay's footsteps.

I am absolutely in awe of your knowledge Kevin.

I'm sure you'll keep us posted with the updates jay.

[tom499]

Very technical stuff

I sent some of my S. japonica pollen to a grower in Austria in the hope of getting seed.

Just a simple pollination of same species plants is a tricky business, But I wish you good luck Jay with yours, the end rewards are definitely worth it

[jay]

Well it has been an interesting 24 hours.

My Paph. Sorcerer's Stone took to the pollination, or at least I believe it did. The flower began to wilt drastically over night. Here is a picture of the flower today.

The Paph. Druid Spring has not done anything yet, but from what I understand it can be a few days.

Here are two pictures of the Paph. Sorcerer's Stone. Keep you fingers crossed, we might have a new complex hybrid in the making.

[exasperatus2002]

When I did my cross, It did the same thing. It closes up the stamen so no pollinators try to crawl in there. This may help some. Different chid but theres alot of similarities.

step by step...

[Don1]

All of this information is found in the OrchidWiz program. It really is an amazing program and provides a wealth of information.

[jay]

OrchidWiz is a neat program, but pricey and constantly needing updates. I am willing to do a little extra work for free.

Maybe someday I will be able to get a nice program like that, but for now it would dip to deep into my "purchase new orchids" fund.

[kmarch]

We came across a mistake just recently in OrchidWiz but I'm in a hurry off to work and I can't remember what it was.....does anyone else remember?....Oh wait, I remember, OrchidWiz had the genus wrong for Appleblossom.

[jay]

The flower on my Sorcerer's Stone continues to wilt, but my Druid Spring is not reacting to the pollination at all. Not sure if that means it didn't take. I still have more pollen, would it be bad to use the other pollen to try to re-pollinate the Druid Spring?

Really hoping to get both pollinated to compare results.

[exasperatus2002]

only one of my two flowers took to pollen, the one that didnt just changed colors and wilted away (see pic dated 2/26 for color difference). The one that took, the stem started to swell and it still has the flower attached (dont know why that happens) to this day. Its been 40 days now.

[jay]

Not sure now if the pollen took. The flower I had mentioned as wilting up after pollination has just fallen off of the plant. Does this mean that it was not successful? Does the flower need to stay on?

I haven't done a thing to the stem yet since I am unsure at this point. Any suggestions would be great.

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by jay

The flower I had mentioned as wilting up after pollination has just fallen off of the plant. Does this mean that it was not successful? Does the flower need to stay on?

Was it the petals, sepals, and pouch that fell off or did the ovary fall off too? If the flower fell off, that is to be expected, but if the ovary fell off, then the cross did not take.

[jay]

Kevin - when I looked again, it still has the ovary. I will try to get a picture later today or tomorrow. I guess this is good news then.

[kmarch]

Yeah if it still has the ovary than you're ok.

[jay]

Thanks for the advice Kevin. Now if the Druid Spring would only follow suit. I guess if it doesn't take I can try to pollinate the next flower since I have saved some of the pollen.

[jay]

Kevin - here is a picture of the ovary as it is still attached to the stem. It looks dried out, but it was always yellowish.

How does one know when it is ready to be sent off? I know it won't be for a while since it was just pollinated on 3/30/08.

Now it's off to the waiting game.

[kmarch]

It looks to have fattened up but I'm not sure about the colour. The guy who is going to flask my paph crosses takes the seed dry. I emptied a tea bag and put the tea bag over the ovary while it was still on the plant. The tea bag catches any expelled seed.

[exasperatus2002]

Originally Posted by jay

Kevin - here is a picture of the ovary as it is still attached to the stem. It looks dried out, but it was always yellowish.

How does one know when it is ready to be sent off? I know it won't be for a while since it was just pollinated on 3/30/08.

Now it's off to the waiting game.

ask a question get an answer........

Paphiopedilum 8 to 10 months

It might not be the answer we want to hear though.... orchids have a long pod maturation period which varies depending on the orchids in question. Heres the link to where I found the info.

Applied Science Center

[jay]

Update - I am not sure if this seedpod is still alive. Take a look and tell me what you think.

This is on the Paph. Sorcerer's Stone which was pollinated by Paph. Druid Spring.

[kmarch]

Hmmmm, I'm just not sure. My pod stayed green and got fat then all of a sudden turned brown. I don't have enough experience with growing pods to know if yours looks ok or not.

[exasperatus2002]

how old was it when it turned?

[jay]

Maybe a week old. Not any more than that. Could actually be a day or two less than a week.

[kmarch]

I couldnt' remember how long ago you had done the pollination (though I should have just looked at the posting dates), but if it was only a week or so old when it turned colour, I'm afraid I'm not too optimistic at this point. My paph pod stayed green and fresh looking for weeks and weeks as it plumped up then suddenly turned brown. I don't know though because your pod plumped up, but a week.....seeds just don't mature in a week. I don't know what to think. Maybe I just really really want this cross to take

[jay]

The odd thing about this is that it was plump before I pollinated the pod while the flower was in full bloom. After the pollination it began to dry up and shrink in size.

The bod on my Paph. Druid Spring seems to be lifeless as well. I do still have some pollen saved from the Sorcerer's Stone, so I may try to pollinate the new flower.

I was really looking forward to seeing if this would work too. When I first started with orchids I used to say that I just want a few, I don't think I will want to breed them. I guess I was wrong.

[Jirel]

I'm sorry, but when I saw the picture of the bloom wilting all I could thing was "I'm pregnant, don't touch me!"

[JLu]

This thread sort of drifted from the original question, but getting back to it...from the standpoint of nuclear DNA it makes absolutely no difference which plant is used as the pod parent. The chromosomes from each parent are randomly split in half and combined when the egg is fertilized. There is no difference in what combination might occur as a result of either parent being the pod parent.

However, two types of DNA are not from the cell nucleus and thus are contributed 100% by the pod parent. One is chloroplast DNA which controls the green color in the plant. That's why you can not get a variegated Hosta from a variegated pollen parent. The mother plant must be variegated and it matters not what the pollen parent is. Green in flower color can also follow this route so green or brown/bronze flowers may well need a mother that looks that way.

The second source of non nuclear DNA is mitochrondrial DNA. Mitrochrondria are the cell units that supply fuel to the cell. It is best therefore to use the most vigorous plant as the pod parent. You surely do not want to use a weak plant as the pod parent because you might kill it, but more importantly, you can make more weak ducklings. Best to use the strong plant as pod parent to produce strong offsrping.