genetics question

[cutterpup]

Hi all. I have been searching for an Slc Presious Stones for a long time. I now have a mnicatt with PS as a parent. Simple genetics would say that if I crossed this plant with itself than 25% of the offspring should resemble a PS. BUT, how does all the intergentics play into this? Since this plant is not a primary hybred am I risking spending years to get a whole range of colors and bloom types?
judy

[kmarch]

The simple answer: Yes.

You could spend decades selfing your plant and producing thousands of plants and never get something that looks like Slc. Precious Stones.

The lesson in simple genetics 1) deals with what we would call "primary hybrids" and Slc. Precious Stones is not a primary, and 2) only considers one parameter, simple colour.

In complex genetics, considering about a dozen parameters, some of which are dominant and some of which are recessive, and if my math is even i the ballpark , approximately 0.0005% of the offspring would come out exactly like the one parent. Again if the math is right, you'd have to produce someting in the neighboorhood of 2000 plants to get just 1? and that assumes no combination repeats itself.

Easier to just buy one. They are available at Porter's Orchids.

Porter's does mail order and has high quality plants. I used to buy from them all the time.

[pikevi]

Cutterpup, kmarch explained it well to show how difficult it is to get what you want in plant.

May be getting the colours may be easier that many other features, depending on the colours that you may want.

Just to add a little more to what kmarch said about dominant and recessive characters a whole lot of other facters play a role in gene-recombination.

Even a 'weakest' gene can be carried on (genotype) and express itself(phenotype) 16 generations down the road. Though some of the results we want can be achieved under controlled laboratory conditions it will be almost next to impossible to get the results you want 'in home experiment'. You may, however , get what you want in your next batch (based on the theory of chances) but that will be a just random chance: beside it will be just what they refer to as 'phenotypical expression' and the genetic makeup will be far from it. To make things more confusing some features may be controlled by more than one gene( multiple foci) and that will make it virtually impossible to get the right 'hybrid'

Unless you want to try it for fun it will be better to follow kmarch's advice

I am not sure even the orchid breeders know exactly what the outcome is going to be. May be kmarch can tell us that. Thanks

[kmarch]

I've only been fortunate enough to hear a copule of reallyserious breeders talk about their breeding programs (Frank Fordyce and Jerry Fischer). They seem to know many "characteristics" that get passed on, that if they cross "a" and "b" then they'll get bigger flowers because "a" tends to impart size to its offspring. This is how both of them tended to talk. I think serious experienced breeders do have a sense of what the dominant characteristics are. And their breeding programs are not as much guess work as one might think. On the other hand, both admitted that the further one goes into complex hybrids, the more variation in the progeny.

I'd love to start breeding some day. I think it is fascinating.

[cutterpup]

Originally Posted by kmarch

I'd love to start breeding some day. I think it is fascinating.

so would I, but I think I'll stick to species
Judy

[pikevi]

I'd love to do it too

But I am not sure I can could find the time and the energy to do it!

Just in case I change my mind what would be the easiest orchid to breed?

Good luck kmarch,cutterpup

[kmarch]

What constitutes "easy"?

Is it a short amount of time from flask to bloom? Paph bellatulum takes as little as 3 years form flask to bloom.

Is it ease of polination? Phals, Phrags, Cattleyas are all really easy to polinate.

Is it heardiness of seedlings once out of flask? I have always had trouble with Cattleya seedlings, I just don't seem to get them right. I have good success with Paph seedlings. Haven't tried Phal or Dendrobium seedlings (although I have a whole flask of Den tetragonum coming in another month or 2. I also just got a few Coelogyne seedlings we'll see how they go.

[pikevi]

I was actually thinking of pollination and the subsequent 'hold'.

I guess the rest of the process(es) will be quite similar from what I understood from some posts in here.

Any reason why Cattleyas give problems?

[kmarch]

I honestly do not know why i have problems wiht Cattleya-type seedlings. Maybe I should get an expert to examine my conditions. They just seem to die off quickly. I don't have any trouble with adult Cattleyas, even received a CCM/AOS for one but Cat. seedlings don't like my care for some reason. I honestly don't have a clue why or what the problem is.

[pikevi]

That is alright, kmarch. It is good enough for me.

I was just wondering if cattleyas are more vulnerable than the other species.

And even if you knew why and try to explain I may not understand it.

Good luck.

[cutterpup]

[quote=kmarch;15091]What constitutes "easy"?

Is it a short amount of time from flask to bloom? Paph bellatulum takes as little as 3 years form flask to bloom.

that's the time frame I was hoping for and didn't think I could find in a paph. Gives one hope.

[pikevi]

Yes!!

I think I am beginning to understand the full impact of the quote: "Patience is a virtue"

I also think I am at a disadvantage

[kmarch]

Dear pivevi,

You and me both! I am probably the most impaient person I know...just ask my partner (a saint!). Almost nightly I get anoyed having to wait for the commercials to pass so I can get back to the show I'm watching! One of my favorite words is "now." And yet.....waiting a few years or a seedling to bloom seems reasonable. It helps to have lots of plants though so you almost always have somethign in bloom!

Impatiently yours,

-Kevin