Did anyone on this forum ventured into flasking?

[orchidea]

I have a seed pod sitting on top of my Psychopsis spike for a while now. So, I was wondering if anyone here had any attempts to try to flask at home.
I am looking into flasking for a while now, and oh boy, there is so much going into this interesting hobby....
As a first step I ordered some medium for the initial sowing.
I want to know, for how long can you store orchid seeds in case my seed pod is ready but I am not yet?.......
I will continue reading and finding out more, but I would like to know what geeks have to share............

[TheBlazingAugust]

You are very brave, as I am sure most people shy away from flasking. I have not done it myself, but I hope to start eventually. One thing I would like to know is some good books or online articles and videos.

[VEEKTOR]

I find this guys video's very easy to follow.
And he is doing most of it with just household stuff.
I really want to try this some day! You end up with oodles of orchids!

YouTube - ‪Orchid Flasking - Part 1 (2011)‬‏

YouTube - ‪Orchid Flasking - Part 2 (2011)‬‏

YouTube - ‪Orchid Seed Flasking - Part 3 (2011)‬‏

[steam fire and ice]

Yep those are the you tube videos I watched too. I also got the smaller handbook on orchid flasking called Orchid Seed Germination Manual A tool for the hobbyist by Aaron Hicks. Book link I got it from ravenroost books and she was really really fast shipping it out. I just need to go ahead and order my media and find some jars. I am thinking I am going to just get the kit that phytotech offers. One reason I am going to go ahead and try it at home is because I cant really find a flasking service here, so I figure I could at least try some home science experience, and I know about sterile technique because I used to work in the medical field before I got my teaching degree. I figure why not give it a go?

[Bolero]

I've only done the deflasking. But at some point I will give it a try. Looks like fun, I made the mistake of creating a pod on a seedling once.........never again.

If you are going to put a pod on a plant, make sure it's fairly mature.

[exasperatus2002]

Flask myself? nope not that brave yet. I sent my pod out to a lab. check out my signature for all the details. 4 pages worth.

[catasetum-ian]

i tried flasking once before, no luck with growth and according to a local orchid grower here he said i did not adjust the ph which is one of the main factor for seed germination.
i had one catasetum seed pod in the mid of maturing but i am attempting to try a second home DIY flasking with doritis pulcherrima again.
i copied and modified some ingredient for home flasking media, its on this blog page. hope someone can drop me some advice on how to improve the recipe.
catasetum-ian: January 2011
as a change will be adding about a quarter lemon into the recipe.

[terra_australis]

Those were very informative videos, thanks for linking them.
I think it is worth noting for the novices however that in video #3 he does not use a glove box or a laminar flow cabinet, probably for ease of filming but in my opinion these are necessary for ensuring you do not contaminate flasks during the sowing process.

Also, for disinfecting seed I went with ideas from another thread on here. My seed was put into a syringe in a similar way with a couple of drops of methylated spirits and some hydrogen peroxide (a suggestion from Western Orchid Labs). Using hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) means you don't need to rinse the seed with distilled water, you can just squirt it into the flask as-is. This simply eliminates a point of possible re-contamination. You also don't need to have a bunch of jars of autoclaved distilled water on standby. Household peroxide is diluted at 3% with water and will simply break down into water and oxygen over a number of days if the flasks are left in light for a little while. Another benefit is it will sterilise the top of the media just in case some contaminant has been introduced somehow during the sowing process.

Another couple of tips (also borrowed from another thread)...

Soak your seed overnight in a sugar solution. This will cause any mould/fungal spores to activate which makes them easier to kill.

Also, prior to sowing decompress the syringe to form a vacuum inside and then shake a little. This will suck the air out of the testa and allow your sterilising agent to get into all the spaces inside the seed capsule.

Hope this helps!

[terra_australis]

Originally Posted by catasetum-ian

i tried flasking once before, no luck with growth and according to a local orchid grower here he said i did not adjust the ph which is one of the main factor for seed germination.
i had one catasetum seed pod in the mid of maturing but i am attempting to try a second home DIY flasking with doritis pulcherrima again.
i copied and modified some ingredient for home flasking media, its on this blog page. hope someone can drop me some advice on how to improve the recipe.
catasetum-ian: January 2011
as a change will be adding about a quarter lemon into the recipe.

If you are aiming to <edit> decrease </edit> pH perhaps try pinapple juice. It is supposed to be a potent additive for increasing germination.

[catasetum-ian]

Originally Posted by terra_australis

If you are aiming to increase pH perhaps try pinapple juice. It is supposed to be a potent additive for increasing germination.

thank you very much for the info...will try to do so ,,,the doritis pulcherrima started to give out spike now,.....their pods will can be harvested in about 3-4mths after pollination, faster than catasetums. hopefully i can experiment with them first before the catasetums pods mature (just pollinated last month)
will post if i i had germinations. thanks very much

[terra_australis]

Originally Posted by terra_australis

If you are aiming to increase pH perhaps try pinapple juice. It is supposed to be a potent additive for increasing germination.

Doh! Sorry, I just realised that is incorrect... I meant DECREASE pH (i.e. increase acidity)

[terra_australis]

Originally Posted by catasetum-ian

thank you very much for the info...will try to do so ,,,the doritis pulcherrima started to give out spike now,.....their pods will can be harvested in about 3-4mths after pollination, faster than catasetums. hopefully i can experiment with them first before the catasetums pods mature (just pollinated last month)
will post if i i had germinations. thanks very much

Had some thoughts about your prior attempt...

How did you sterilise the seed? If you used bleach you may have used a too concentrated solution or perhaps soaked the seed for too long.

Another thing... your recipe says it contains 65g of agar. In most flasking media it is added at a rate of 7g/L. If you used 65g in the ~1.25L of media in your recipe, it probably set as hard as a rock and sucked all the moisture out of the flask.

[catasetum-ian]

Originally Posted by terra_australis

Had some thoughts about your prior attempt...

How did you sterilise the seed? If you used bleach you may have used a too concentrated solution or perhaps soaked the seed for too long.

Another thing... your recipe says it contains 65g of agar. In most flasking media it is added at a rate of 7g/L. If you used 65g in the ~1.25L of media in your recipe, it probably set as hard as a rock and sucked all the moisture out of the flask.

i only sterilized the seed pod using 1:10 bleach solution then rinse with sterilized water, did not use the hydrogen peroxide method to sterilized the inner seed.
even with the 65g agar, i still find the mixture is a little bit too soft (perhaps i am using the entire blended (supernatant and the pulp). and the agar i used here is the strand agar and not the powder agar, i am not sure which to use so i just pick one of it

[AkOrchids]

Be very careful to "sneak up" on the Ph adjustment whether going up or down. Use a quality instrument and add the Lemon, or whatever you are using ,very slowly while taking measurements. If you just add a quarter of a lemon you will have no idea what the Ph is. Too many factors such as the starting Ph and the size and Ph of the lemon you are using. I buy Flasks from A.J. Hicks , his book is great and he sells Flasks on E-Bay from time to time. I think he is AJORCHIDS on ebay. He will answer questions also. PM me for his e-mail .

Warren Weldon

[Greybeard]

I'm not ready to try this yet but this is a very informative thread that I will keep track of as I plan to do this someday when I'm more at ease with growing my Orchids Keep me posted on how your reciepes and trials work please Thank you

[catasetum-ian]

Originally Posted by AkOrchids

Be very careful to "sneak up" on the Ph adjustment whether going up or down. Use a quality instrument and add the Lemon, or whatever you are using ,very slowly while taking measurements. If you just add a quarter of a lemon you will have no idea what the Ph is. Too many factors such as the starting Ph and the size and Ph of the lemon you are using. I buy Flasks from A.J. Hicks , his book is great and he sells Flasks on E-Bay from time to time. I think he is AJORCHIDS on ebay. He will answer questions also. PM me for his e-mail .

Warren Weldon

thank you so much Warren for the info, i am just a beginner and i dun think i am ready to go investing into a pH meter yet. thank you very much for the offer, will still experiment for fun for the doritis and as for the catasetum seed pods, will buy sowing medium from the local nursery or get a local nursery to do the flasking for me.

[terra_australis]

Originally Posted by catasetum-ian

thank you so much Warren for the info, i am just a beginner and i dun think i am ready to go investing into a pH meter yet. thank you very much for the offer, will still experiment for fun for the doritis and as for the catasetum seed pods, will buy sowing medium from the local nursery or get a local nursery to do the flasking for me.

Perhaps you can just use chemical pH test indicators for pH testing rather than one of those expensive digital gadgets. It's old school but will do the job
You should be able to get that sort of thing from aquarium supply shops and maybe pool supply places as well. There are various types of liquid indicator chemicals available and to get to a precise pH you may need to use two as they change colour within a pH range rather than at a specific pH. If you can find a universal indicator you would only need that.

See HERE

[catasetum-ian]

Originally Posted by terra_australis

Perhaps you can just use chemical pH test indicators for pH testing rather than one of those expensive digital gadgets. It's old school but will do the job
You should be able to get that sort of thing from aquarium supply shops and maybe pool supply places as well. There are various types of liquid indicator chemicals available and to get to a precise pH you may need to use two as they change colour within a pH range rather than at a specific pH. If you can find a universal indicator you would only need that.

See HERE

mmm...very good idea, litmus paper or either using urine stip analyzer, they got pH test value. thanks for the brilliant idea, i was told to get the pH 5.5 right?

[terra_australis]

That I can't help with... it depends on the particular type you are trying to germinate. My Dendrobium seed have been OK with neutral pH.

[catasetum-ian]

Originally Posted by terra_australis

That I can't help with... it depends on the particular type you are trying to germinate. My Dendrobium seed have been OK with neutral pH.

oic...thanks for sharing all the info. hope to post some result in a few months yo come

[orchids4me]

Hi orchidea,
I don't know how long the seed keeps stored on this type of seed pod but if you email troy mayers he may be able to answer this question for you.
Tcmeyers@troymeyers.com
Good luck
Emmaye
I also am starting flasking , kep us posted on how yours goes... I tried to pollinate my psychopsis also but I think I waited to long to do it. Well next bloom try again

[terra_australis]

Originally Posted by orchids4me

Hi orchidea,
I don't know how long the seed keeps stored on this type of seed pod but if you email troy mayers he may be able to answer this question for you.
Tcmeyers@troymeyers.com
Good luck
Emmaye
I also am starting flasking , kep us posted on how yours goes... I tried to pollinate my psychopsis also but I think I waited to long to do it. Well next bloom try again

The viability of seed does decrease with age however it will generally last much longer than many other types of seed. Once again, it also depends on the genus.

I had a really good resource for the process of drying seed but I can't remember where it is (it may have even been on the OSP website, I can't remember). Anyway, to maximise the life of seed you simply dry it by using a dessicant (silica gel, rock salt or baked rice etc.) for a while, put it in a sealed bag and then put it in the fridge. It will last many years this way. I haven't actually done this with my seed but it still germinated after 2 years of being stored in a cool cupboard.

On a side note, it is possible to store pollen for up to 6 months in the fridge as well - just in case your intended parent plants are not flowering at the same time. Make sure it is pollen from a freshly opened flower.

[catasetum-ian]

Originally Posted by terra_australis

The viability of seed does decrease with age however it will generally last much longer than many other types of seed. Once again, it also depends on the genus.

I had a really good resource for the process of drying seed but I can't remember where it is (it may have even been on the OSP website, I can't remember). Anyway, to maximise the life of seed you simply dry it by using a dessicant (silica gel, rock salt or baked rice etc.) for a while, put it in a sealed bag and then put it in the fridge. It will last many years this way. I haven't actually done this with my seed but it still germinated after 2 years of being stored in a cool cupboard.

On a side note, it is possible to store pollen for up to 6 months in the fridge as well - just in case your intended parent plants are not flowering at the same time. Make sure it is pollen from a freshly opened flower.

interesting info about the pollens, perhaps this increase the opportunity of pollinating my catasetums.
i was told the seed pods takes about 8, occasionally 12 months to mature by a orchid grower here. si it would be another 7 month wait at least for me.

[terra_australis]

Well here's one I prepared earlier...

This is a good Dendrobium speciosum clone that I selfed. I really only did this as practice for my other seed sowing ventures. Den speciosum being the slow starter that it is, these won't be flowering size for probably another 15 years. As you can see there are a number of protocorms starting to grow. (Sorry about the picture quality - difficult to photograph through foggy glass jars)

[catasetum-ian]

Originally Posted by terra_australis

Well here's one I prepared earlier...

This is a good Dendrobium speciosum clone that I selfed. I really only did this as practice for my other seed sowing ventures. Den speciosum being the slow starter that it is, these won't be flowering size for probably another 15 years. As you can see there are a number of protocorms starting to grow. (Sorry about the picture quality - difficult to photograph through foggy glass jars)

Attachment 46226

no worries...can the protocorms clearly there...congratulations. and 15 years!!! wow .....i was told a phal gigantea might take about 7-8 years from sowing to flowering and i thought that was long....and this one 15 years....really admire your patience here

[terra_australis]

Originally Posted by catasetum-ian

no worries...can the protocorms clearly there...congratulations. and 15 years!!! wow .....i was told a phal gigantea might take about 7-8 years from sowing to flowering and i thought that was long....and this one 15 years....really admire your patience here

As stated, this was simply practice to see if I could sow without contamination and have some amount of germination. I'm not quite sure what has happened with these protocorms as they have still not started to grow leaves.

Despite this dissapointment I have another flask of some terrestrial species that have sprouts up to 10mm. I'd much rather see these grow large enough to deflask. Will post pics if you want.

[catasetum-ian]

Originally Posted by terra_australis

Despite this dissapointment I have another flask of some terrestrial species that have sprouts up to 10mm. I'd much rather see these grow large enough to deflask. Will post pics if you want.

that would be nice. can't wait to see the pics.

[terra_australis]

Heres we go...

[catasetum-ian]

that is so cool

[terra_australis]

LOL. Thanks.
I just flasked a whole bunch more seeds yesterday so hopefully I get a similarly good result from them...

[terra_australis]

Just an update... the flasks mentioned above are just starting to show signs of life. The Thelymitra brevifolia already have some protocorms. The other Thelymitra and a hybrid Pterostylis (eastiva X taurus) I made are just starting to germinate. Looks like this time I did well to avoid contamination.

[orchidea]

Wow, how did I miss all of these posts???.....
Great stuff terra_australis!
I am going to flask some more seeds next weekend into MY OWN medium that I brew!!!!! That is going to be even more interesting..........

Just few of my flasked jars are showing life inside.....

Did you re-plate yet? When do you think it needs to be re-plated? Don't you think the ones that are about 10mm are ready for that?

I am just asking, I have no clue.....

Thanks!

[terra_australis]

Further to that, I decided to try a new sowing method. Instead of using a glove box (or laminar flow cabinet) I sterilised and directly injected seed into the flask using a hypodermic needle.

Firstly I bought a bunch of 500mL bottles with sealing polypropylene lids from a local supplier. The lids were drilled with 1/8" holes and the holes were sealed with a liberal application of clear silicone sealant. Since these bottles are stackable I applied less to the outside and more on the inside. Overall there was about 5mm thickness of sealant. The lids were set aside to cure for a few days.



Flasks were then made up with media and sterilised in the microwave for several minutes and placed into a bleach sprayed bag until cool, as demonstrated in Frankco's video. Lids were then tightened to seal.

The next step was to load a bunch of 5mL syringes (I was only using small amounts of seed) with dry seed by removing the plunger then pouring in with a folded piece of paper. The plungers were replaced and then a solution containing sugar and mild detergent were drawn up into each syringe. The syringes were agitated then left to sit for about 24 hours.



By this time the seed had settled onto the plunger and it was simple to squeeze out all the sugar solution. A few mL of hydrogen peroxide was sucked into the syringe and the syringe agitated further for a few minutes. I attached a 21 guage hypodermic needle tip to the syringe, dipped it in hydrogen peroxide then proceeded to inject seed into the flasks.




So far I haven't seen any signs of contamination.

[terra_australis]

Originally Posted by orchidea

Wow, how did I miss all of these posts???.....
Great stuff terra_australis!
I am going to flask some more seeds next weekend into MY OWN medium that I brew!!!!! That is going to be even more interesting..........

Just few of my flasked jars are showing life inside.....

Did you re-plate yet? When do you think it needs to be re-plated? Don't you think the ones that are about 10mm are ready for that?

I am just asking, I have no clue.....

Thanks!

My aim is to not require a replate. I have intentionally sowed thinly in order to avoid needing to do so. I don't think it should be an issue as the media I used is designed as both a germinating and replate media. The first batch of plants is now about 3.5cm tall and still growing.

[1joyceh]

outstanding terra_australis!!

[terra_australis]

Germination from the second batch of Thelymitra (not the injected one)...

[terra_australis]

Just an update on the flasks I've done so far...

Firstly, the Thelymitra flask in the picture above started grow leaves but unfortunately became contaminated with a mould at that point and was beyond saving. I have plenty of seeds of that species so I wasn't too worried. Not sure how the contamination ocurred but I had just moved it into my grow light so perhaps it was due to temp change or vibration...

On the injected flasks, I had 5 prepared. I sowed 3 using hypodermic needles and left 2 unsown as "control" vessels to check the microwave sterilisation process. I wasn't completely sold on the whole microwave thing.

Anyway, the 3 sown flasks have germinated and are growing with no signs of contamination. The 2 control flasks however became contaminated with some bacterial slime stuff a few weeks after preparation. This not only tells me that my microwave sterilisation process is flawed - I probably didn't nuke them long enough - but that using H2O2 as the sterilent and injecting it into the flask with the seeds is effective at surface sterilising the media. No idea whether contamination will still ocurr due to nasties still living beneath the surface but time will tell I guess... 5 weeks so far and no contamination.

[orchidea]

Dan, may I ask what medium you are using? Do you buy or brew your own?

[terra_australis]

I used Westerns W3.0 for the first couple of batches but ran out of that recently so I've gone to W2.5 to see how it stacks up. Andrew tells me there's not much difference between the two when it comes to terrestrials...

Also an update on the Dendrobium speciosum from post #24. The protocorms have slowly grown to about 4mm and are now sprouting little leaves. I'm not sure if this is normal. I thought they tended to grow quite quickly in flask but those have been in there close to 7 months.

[orchidea]

Originally Posted by terra_australis

I ...I thought they tended to grow quite quickly in flask but those have been in there close to 7 months.

Thank you Dan,
Yep, whatever germinated for me is rather slow growing too. Or should I say, many jars have nothing going on inside, and I am loosing hope by now. I am wondering if I used too much bleach.
I posted this pic in a different thread, but I'll do it again...
These are my only flasks (2 jars) that are doing something exciting....

It's Den. harveyanum. I think I had many more seeds than that, but only few germinated.
I was asking about medium because I was trying to brew my own, but it didn't come out good. I was hoping I can get few tips...
I think, I'll just order some medium next time I try to flask.

[terra_australis]

There's some nice little root hairs on those babies. Leaves coming on too. Good job for a first attempt I say So is that your own medium in that flask?

There's a list of reasons why seed doesn't germinate -seed viability, too much time in bleach, too little time in bleach (to soften the seedcoat)... All you can do is experiment a bit I think.

My Den. flask looks similar, a lot of seed that didn't germinate, some that germinated but subsequently fizzled out and then about 30 nice chunky bright green growing bodies. I'm kind of happy that they thinned their numbers out themselves so I don't need to replate

[orchidea]

Originally Posted by terra_australis

...I'm kind of happy that they thinned their numbers out themselves so I don't need to replate

I'd say......I was ready to re-plate...had medium in some bigger jars and band-aids covering a little hole in the caps...untill I realize there is not much to re-plate there.....
I am not sure my little Dens will grow much bigger, but if they will, don't you think they need to have some air and maybe need to be re-plated just for that reason?.....
No, the medium in the jar is P669. I wish I can cook medium that looks that good. The first one I brew didn't jelled up and had some pieces of "kaka" swimming in liquid... . It looked a little better second time I cooked the medium, but became funny looking again after few weeks.
I used regular banana, frozen first time and fresh one the second time. I think I might try to do it again with the baby food banana.....
It's a big PITA, cooking it, dispersing it into the jars, waiting a week or too....just to realize that it's no good, dump it down the drain and wash 30-50 jars again. Sometimes I wonder if I am in the right mind still. I know I use to be before I started noticing orchids......

[terra_australis]

Yeah, they have that effect. LOL

A lot of flasks are vented but I hear a lot of conflicting views on the subject. From memory Frank in his video said it is unnecessary. Might depend on how long the particular species needs to remain in flask. To be honest I think most standard vessels don't seal well enough to prevent air exchange anyway so venting might be going overboard. I was thinking also with my injected flasks that the injection site would allow air exchange... it may or may not. Anyway, I think time will tell how well our methods work. I'm pretty happy with what I've done so far.

As far as gelling the agar goes... you need to make sure it cools down relatively quickly. It won't set if it stays hot for a long time.
My last batch of media I think I made a little too dilute. Helen Western suggested making it a little more dilute for sowing but I've obviously added too much water. Its solidified to a gel but not enough to sustain its own weight - it would go to mush if I tipped the jar on its side. I'm still going to use it just to see if it works. Actually it might work better. We'll see.

Maybe you should try the hypodermic method?