When do they come out of the flask?

[slippery_biscuit]

So I thought what the heck, the greenhouse is stabilized and the flask on ebay had no bids going, so I put in a cheap maximum. Checked a couple of days later and now I've got 15-20 in a flask headed my way. They are 1/2 to 1" tall. But I really don't know what to do with them when they arrived. Put this on hold 'till they are in hand and I can describe them better?

Thanks, Jeff

[Ellen]

Once the flask arrives, post a pic and someone can give you more advice. Those plants sound like they might be really small. What kind are they? Are the plants being shipped in the flask or in a baggie? If in the flask, you may want to let them grow for a while unless they have been badly jumbled during shipment, in which case you will probably want to deflask right away. I would be extremely wary of buying flasks on e-bay. Just my opinion.

[pikevi]

I bought 3 flasks of orchids,viz., Cattleya, Brassia, and a 'number'( which I will get the name for, next week).

Some are green and some are brown inside the flasks.

Can anyone give me any pointers or links before I xfer the plants to 'pots'?

Thanks.

[Ellen]

Go to Troy Meyers' website (http://www.troymeyers.com/) and read his instructions on deflasking orchids. I don't know how long you've been growing those flasks, but it looks like some of the plants are deteriorating and a few are dominating. The flask on the left of the photo looks particularly bad. You will probably lose quite a few plants (the small, weak and dying) when you deflask, so be ready for some attrition. Since the plants are in flasks, If you are able to remove the lids or stoppers, do so a day or two before you remove the plants from the flask to allow the plants to acclimate a little bit to the outside air. If you can't get the lids off and have to break the glass, just wrap the whole thing in plenty of newspapers and smash it with a hammer. Then you can put the baby plants in a container and wash them with lukewarm water to remove the agar and little pieces of broken glass. Before you start the compotting process a la Troy Meyers, make sure you have everything ready, and a clean surface to work on (newspapers work well). Troy suggests adding fertilizer to the potting medium, but I don't do that. I think it promotes mold growth. Once you have prepared the compots, put them in a plastic tub or other container that you can cover with plastic wrap. Keep them in a fairly warm place with intermediate light, mostly covered, for a week or so, removing the plastic wrap for a little longer each day until they are weaned from the high humidity environment. Keep the compots together in the tub and monitor them closely until you see new roots growing, then they can go to wherever you keep your other orchids.

[slippery_biscuit]

I agree with your caution about ebay flasks; in this case I thought to give it a shot and if they all die, I'm out less than $10.

They arrived today in a baggie, a surprise for me. They are Dend anosmums, maybe an inch long, growing is some wet, dark goo. Probably agar.

No pics yet, sorry. Leave in baggie? Remove to a different closed container? Separate? Put agar into another medium? I'll have a closer look later tonight, I just opened the pkg to get it warmed up and had a quick look.

thanks, Jeff

[pikevi]

Ellen,

Thank you for the advice. I did try that URL a few days ago since it was mentioned elsewhere in this forum. Somehow I am still fail to locate the info on "how to plant". I will check again.

I just wanted to try it since I believe in 'hands on' training and I got these flasks very cheap- $5cdn each since I was buying a few other orchids. Though I feel sorry for the plants I will have to try it sooner or later .

Your instructions are very clear and precise. Thanks again.

[Ellen]

Pikevi: Try this URL: http://lab.troymeyers.com/flasking/F...ecid=15&-find=
If that doesn't work, when you go to the Meyers Conservatory home page click on "Informational Pages". This will take you to a list of things. What you want is "Caring for seedlings removed from flask and a method of compotting in sphagnum".

Slippery B, since the plants came in a baggie, they should be compotted, not "reflasked". The dark gooey stuff is almost certainly agar. Are they actually rooted in it, or jumbled around in it? If rooted in it, you can probably leave them in the baggie for a while. If jumbled, you want to get them out of there ASAP. Usually the procedure is to wash off the agar and pot in sphag, and this is what I do. I've heard some people say that they leave the agar around the roots, so you could try that if you want to. It probably doesn't make much difference. At $10 a flask, even if you get 5 plants to survive you're doing OK. Den anosmum eventually gets BIG. Good luck with your new baggie babies!

[pikevi]

Thanks Ellen.

I got it. I guess I am dumber than I give myself credit for!!

I think you pretty well covered most of what is said there.

I will not use fertilizer initially.

[slippery_biscuit]

There are some pretty small roots, and the baggie looks sorta messed up so I'll sit down and separate them into groups of two's and three's. I did check out the URL you referenced and will stick them in moss per the example provided.

Sure appreciate your guidance with this. Thanks, Jeff

[pikevi]

Hi slippery_biscuit,

Good luck.

I am trying to do the same , hopefully in a few days.

[slippery_biscuit]

Thanks, Pikevi. My little guys are much smaller than yours (judging from the pic), but nonetheless, this morning I put them all into a 3" pot of damp moss. Tried to leave some agar around the roots when possible. Am not holding my breath on this as many of the plants have a small root nub, more than an actual root. Set the pot in a shoebox size container with a bit of water in the bottom and covered (not quite tight) with a clear plastic top.

So we'll see what happens. If they croak, I wouldn't be discouraged, but I will definitely make sure I get some slightly bigger starters for the next go round. But maybe a few of these will pull through.

Good luck with yours. Jeff

[pikevi]

Hi,

I just xferred the little guys from the flasks to trays.

As Ellen said many were in bad shape .. totally browned.

I have covered the entire tray in a plastic cover and the whole thing is in a transparent bag with a few moistened paper towels and sphagnum moss.

They get diffused light since the tray has been placed under a bushy hibiscus.

As you said , slippery_biscuit, I would not worry too much if none survives since it is my first attempt. I'd, however, feel sorry for the fate of the plants for their sake

And thank you , Ellen.

[Ellen]

How are the babies doing?
Slippery Biscuit: I'm not sure putting water in the bottom of the container is a good idea. You certainly don't want the pots to be sitting in water. You want the air around the plants to be humid, but the roots need to breathe, so you want the moss to be damp, but not soaked. As I'm sure you and Pikevi are discovering, there's a fine line between not enough humidity and too much. I wouldn't water the compots until they're almost completely dried out. Depending on conditions, this may take weeks. Also, just so you know, cattleya type orchids are some of the more touchy to deflask, especially if they're as immature as it sounds like yours are.

[gummie_sourball]

i don't mean to interrupt or anything, but the thread title cought my attention....what's "flasking"?

[pikevi]

Thank you Ellen.

Mine are doing OK, I think. No yellowing nor drying out yet.But it is only the 3rd day.

I do have a little water,more like lots of moisture, in the bottom tray as well. The tray with the babies,however, is not touching the water.

Thanks also for the timely advice of not watering the trays 'til they dry up. I was about to open the plastic bag( which is vented) and the plastic dome to water them today.

slippery_biscuit: Hope to hear more about your attempt.

gummie_sourball: I don't know much about it even though I just deflasked a few. I will let more experienced people to explain it to you.

[Ellen]

Gummie, Most orchid plants grown commercially are started in sterile medium (an agar mix) in small closed glass jars called flasks. When they've grown enough, they can be removed from the flask and planted in a pot. Removal from the flask is called "deflasking". This is probably the most stressful time in the plant's entire life because it is going from a sterile, humid, protected environment to one full of pathogens, dry air, and possible mechanical damage. That's why we try to be careful and ease them slowly into the real world.

[gummie_sourball]

oh i see now, but isn't it harsh on the plant to travel through ups or something when it's ordered offline?

[Ellen]

Sometimes travel is hard on the plants and sometimes not. It depends on the size and shape of the flasks, the size and planting density of the seedlings, the consistency of the agar, the way the flasks are packed, and the way they're handled en route. Very small sparsely planted seedlings in watery agar generally don't do very well, but really shouldn't be shipped under those conditions anyway. Larger, more closely planted seedlings with decent roots, in firm agar, usually do quite well when shipped in the flask. Sometimes the seedlings get scrambled in the flask - in that case they need to be deflasked right away, usually with minimal harm done. Some growers will deflask the seedlings and ship them in a plastic baggie to avoid the problem of scrambling. In that case they obviously need to be planted right away.

[Kevin Western]

They are long overdue to come out of the flasks as indicated by an amount of dead leaf and dead plant material in the flask. When I deflask I use a garden hose with an adjustable head to gently but soundly blast the medium away from the roots. Remove ant dead leaf or plant or root tissue. I recommend planting up in your preferred mix for the genus and supporting the deflasked plantlets with minimum support ie not too humid, a bit of fresh air, enough light to support growth and attempt to harden them off to adult plant conditions asap. If you get that right then there is very little loss to rot and no need to use fungicides etc.o fertilise straight away with dilute applications and resist all temptation to water them to death. I actually deflask many a genus including Cymbidium, dendrobium and disa to my shade house conditions which may include temperatures of 100 deg Farenheit, strong wind and 10% relative humidity without loss of a single plant. Mind you I would not contemplate doing that with a Phalaenopsis, a phrag or a paphiopedilum or other softer genera. I can say categorically that more deflasked orchids are lost to rot and annihilation from excess humidity, lack of air movement, over-watering, fungicides, pesticides and general excess tampering than have ever been lost to cood orchid conditions. basically don';t try to grow a deflasked plantlet in a situation that you would not subject a similar adult orchid plant to.
Kevin Western

[Ellen]

Good points, especially the comment about plants being lost to excess tampering. This goes for mature plants, too.

[pikevi]

Thanks Kevin Western.

I have 'compotted' them. Only a couple of them were in good shape. Most were 'critical care' candidates,besides being just tiny.

I am hoping for a miracle

[slippery_biscuit]

Well, here is my update: next time I think about doing this I'll plan first and then act. They were small to begin with, roots more like little nubs. I think they should have been left alone for awhile longer, but that thought doesn't carry much weight. They wasted away after a couple of weeks. I maybe could have zeroed in done something with a couple of them, but I have gutted (down to studs and no floor) a bathroom and have to get it up and running. I cleared their spot on the bench for an incoming Psycosis with a couple of spikes, abandoning any hopes for a miracle...!

pikevi: how are yours doing?

Ellen: sent you a note; I'm in Woodinville.

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

Well, I have treated mine like other orchids, some time ago now, and all up and died. I think it is time to try again, but I will raise the humidity somewhat, but then reduce it relatively quickly, and spray all with one of 3 fungicides, and see what happens. Exactly opposite to what Kevin suggested. But if one way doesn't work, you have try do something different the next time. I bought 2 flasks that are wisky bottles. Each has a few plants in it that are very large, one flask even has mature sized plants that show some old bloom spikes. I figured I have a chance with these.

[Anton]

Cynthia, do so at your own peril.......

Kevin has been doing this for over 30 years.

Good luck, keep us informed.

[Ellen]

Pikevi, how are your babies doing?

[pikevi]

Ellen, they are doing farely well , though I see some of them are browning.

(I apologise for the late response)

I think it is lack of moisture and/or water . I think my brain is clunky with too many orchid-related info that I made a mistake in watering schedule for the little ones.

I will post a photo of them tomorrow since it is very late now

And thanks for the interest and care

[awaxa]

Hi Guys,
This thread has produced quite a lot of information and interest. However I think an important ingredient that is missing here is where each one of us rear our orchids or in this case seedlings. When one gives another tips on something, everything is not always mentioned. People sometimes think that the other person may have already known some other point and hence did not talk about it in relating the tips. For instance, it is very difficult to reproduce the same environment for us all to deflask our seedlings. We can't all use the same quality of water to wash our seedlings. Some of us may use luke-warm water, others may not even see the importance in using it. All of these things put together will impact on the wellbeing of the seedlings in the weeks and months to come. If one even wants to be difficult, he may ever consider the parents of the seedlings, in that if the parents were difficult growers in the first place, etc. There are quite a great deal to consider. However, with a lot of reading, questioning and as someone said, hands-on experimenting, along with making notes, to determine what is better for you as an individual grower in your environmental conditions, one will improve with experience. This is what makes it so interesting. Hope this helps.

[pikevi]

I think you raise a valid point,awaxa.

But it will be impossible to cover every aspect of a particular situation.But more info can be obtained by follow-up questions.

The variables you mentioned cannot be taken into consideration when a reply is posted since they are just that:-variables. However I have seen experts here taking those factors into considerationwhen replying, That is why they prefer to know the location & season. along with other artificial condions re lighting and humidity.

When I had a couple of dozens of orchids I used warm bottled water. I also inspected the plants very closely every day. Now I just use tap water but not cold.As the number increases it will be next to impossible to care for them as we would if we have a few.

It is also impossible, at least to an average orchid lover, to provide a 'natural' environment to each orchid. Under home conditions even an 'ideal' environment is very difficult to provide because many of us have more than one species of orchids in any given location. So most of us , I believe , will try to provide the orchids with either 'optimal' or 'acceptable' conditions and that should be sufficient enough for a home-gardener.

Those who provide orchids with 'minimal' conditions can neither be orchid lovers nor orchid growers for long!

Your point,however, is well taken. I wish there is a simple solution for it

[digitalgate]

how is your seedling? attrition rate should be 50% unless you are really really
good.