Deflasking Baby Phals - What am I doing?

[mayres]

About three weeks ago I ordered and received my first flask of phals. I've managed to successfully keep a small batch of seedlings alive for a year but never tried a flask before - all in a home environment. Here is the cross....from BigLeaf Orchids....

[mayres]

Here are the pictures of my flask breaking experience and the first pot up into sphag. First picture is after opening box - box inside (both with styrofoam) and then bubblewrap around flask. After removing from the flask plants were layed out on clean paper towel to dry off for about two hours before placing into community pots which were half filled with styrofoam and half sphag. To keep the humidity up they were placed under a upturned terrarium for two weeks and then I slowly pulled up the right side more and more. Now they have been totally out into the open air for a week. I did get some slight browning at some leaf tips during this transition - hopefully (?) it will not create any serious issues. There were 17 plants that appeared to have reasonable chances of survival and then another 24 that were VERY tiny with little root development. Since I've never done this before I didn't have a clue if I should even try with them or just discard and not sweat it?

[kmarch]

Sounds like a nice cross! What's your process for deflasking?

Edited: I see you were posting your process for deflasking just as I was asking about it! I think you were right to sort out the big ones form the little ones and plant them together. My opinion about the smaller weaker ones is, why not give them a go and see what happens? It could be that theyre small not because they're slow or weak but maybe just because they were crowded. That flask was packed! Some of them might really take off.

It looks like you've prepared well and done a fantastic job deflasking. Please consider keeping us updated on their progress form time to time.

[psyc1210]

Nice looking cross! Can't wait to see how these continue to grow, and ultimately bloom. I really love the color of the parents

[tocarmar]

That does sound like a nice cross!! That is similar to what I do. But instead of the upturned tank I put them in a flat with a high dome. & gradually tip the dome until I take it off about 2 weeks time. I just got done doing it to some flasks I received 2-3 weeks ago.

[mehitabel]

Wow! What a terrific cross! How can you miss with that one? I love those waxy white/green starry ones. Perfection!

Thanks for the pictures of the unflasking, very interesting. I was astonished at how jam-packed that flask was. What would have happened if you hadn't bought it and let them all out?

Yes, I agree the little guys were probably just on the bottom and starved for light. You can always weed them out later. I say keep the little guys in the dome an extra 3-4 weeks to give them a better chance. They should start growing like gangbusters now they are getting some light and breathing space.

This is all very exciting. I hope you'll keep us up to date on the progress for these little guys. Maybe next summer I might get enough courage to try one myself, but I am not consistently successful with little guys yet.

[mayres]

Tom -
How small do you try to save the little ones?

[patticake]

I say good luck! I think it will go well from the looks of it! My flask of Paph. fairrieanum x sib., I saved each one. The very tiniest didn't make it, but a couple of them did, and are doing well. (my flask was for 24- I have 26 survivors!) Let us know how it's going...I feel like an expectant grandma or something!

[digitalgate]

it is difficult to tell if the small ones will grow into adulthood. Mostly for me it is a numbers game. I have some in protocorn stage that grew into 1 inch size in my care. I have 3 inch size that died along the away.

[peterlin]

Mike - Raising phalaenopsis can be rewarding and simple. For the most part, phalaenopsis seedlings have same culture requirement as mature plant. Difference is that seedlings are smaller - they do not handle stress as well. Specifically stress related to low humidity, extreme high or low temperature, too much light. Seedlings don't need as much light, about 500 foot candle for them to maintain vegetative growth. You want to keep them warm, 75-78 F. Don’t' subject them to a big swing of temperature between day and night. In other words, if you keep them outdoor in North Texas - it is not unusual for us to see high day temp of 95 F and night temperature in the 72 F. This is a big spread of temperature difference. No good.
I would suggest that after deflasking - the aquarium is covered with newspaper to keep the moisture in. Remember that seedlings are going from 100% humidity inside of flask. I would also place these pots over gravel (crushed lava rock or alifor, about 1 -2 inch deep). This will allow you to keep 1/4 inch water at the bottom - and the pot will not come in contact with the bottom of the pot.
You can place the aqarium over heat mat to keep the tank warm this winter. Ideal temperature is 75-78F degree.
Moss works well for repotting seedlings. What I would do differently right after deflask is that moss is moist - not damp. You would cover the roots loosely - no need to bury all the root because that could invite rot. With high humidity - seedlings will grow new roots into the potting mix (in this case moss).
You could use coir mix if you can keep it moist and keep up the humidity. It's best to keep the seedlings in a community pot, 4 to 6 inches because smaller pot may dry out too fast.

[tansyflower]

I have no advice- I killed all my first (and only) lot!!

Looks like a lovely cross. Good luck!!

[dorothea]

great cross, hope you'll post pictures in bloom in 1-2 years!

[Bolero]

Looks like you've done a great job there, let us know the progress.

I have just deflasked 22 paphs into individual pots, not sure if this will work but hopefully I won't have many issues. I won't show pictures as I've not done it as well as you and I have my plants in the open individually potted in 50mm (2 inch) pots. Fingers crossed we both have good luck.

;-)

[digitalgate]

Originally Posted by Bolero

Looks like you've done a great job there, let us know the progress.

I have just deflasked 22 paphs into individual pots, not sure if this will work but hopefully I won't have many issues. I won't show pictures as I've not done it as well as you and I have my plants in the open individually potted in 50mm (2 inch) pots. Fingers crossed we both have good luck.

;-)

that is a very difficult plant to grow. The root is so fine and root rot is almost instantaneous dead for the plant in my weather. I hope you have better luck.

[Bolero]

Originally Posted by mayres

Here are the pictures of my flask breaking experience and the first pot up into sphag. First picture is after opening box - box inside (both with styrofoam) and then bubblewrap around flask. After removing from the flask plants were layed out on clean paper towel to dry off for about two hours before placing into community pots which were half filled with styrofoam and half sphag. To keep the humidity up they were placed under a upturned terrarium for two weeks and then I slowly pulled up the right side more and more. Now they have been totally out into the open air for a week. I did get some slight browning at some leaf tips during this transition - hopefully (?) it will not create any serious issues. There were 17 plants that appeared to have reasonable chances of survival and then another 24 that were VERY tiny with little root development. Since I've never done this before I didn't have a clue if I should even try with them or just discard and not sweat it?

So is that fish tank perfectly sealed? I saw what you've done and put the tray of seedlings inside a plastic storage box with a lid that seals tight. It is warm in my home so they will get the temp and light requirements they need. Should I seal the lid on or leave part of the lid off so that they get some air movement? I am thinking of putting perlite on the bottom to increase the humidity.

What do you think?

[tocarmar]

Originally Posted by mayres

Tom -
How small do you try to save the little ones?

I try to save all of them! I separate them by size into compots, I have saved alot of the tiny ones, & lost alot also. It just takes alittle extra care & time for them.

[tocarmar]

Originally Posted by Bolero

Looks like you've done a great job there, let us know the progress.

I have just deflasked 22 paphs into individual pots, not sure if this will work but hopefully I won't have many issues. I won't show pictures as I've not done it as well as you and I have my plants in the open individually potted in 50mm (2 inch) pots. Fingers crossed we both have good luck.

;-)

What kind of potting medium do you have them in? Did you cover them at all?
After getting them used to the air with out a cover, about 2 weeks or so, I start spraying with a 1/4- 1/8 strength Physan 20 solution. It seems to help with any rot. I also keep them towards the dryer side.

[mehitabel]

What a great thread! I'm so glad you started it, Mike.

And thanks to Peter Lin for sharing his knowledge about this. Thanks, Peter!

[solay]

How neat! I'm too chicken to try de-flasking but this is a great thread. Looks like your off to a great start there Mike. Can't wait for the progress reports.

[mayres]

Bolero - the tank was sealed but you will notice that I propped up the bottom of one side for air movement in and out. After about a week and a half I started slowly propping up one side a little bit more each day. They are now on a bed of S/H balls (as in like pebbles) with water below the surface to add humidity to the surrounding area. It has now been three weeks and for good or ill I have the glass off and fingers and toes crossed! They are about 12" away from T12 fluorescents and the temps have been fairly consistently in the low to mid 70's for the past few weeks.....

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by digitalgate

that is a very difficult plant to grow.

What is? A Paph? Paph helena?

[mayres]

Tom - when you say 1/4 to 1/8 strength physan 20 - is that like 1/4 to 1/8 tsp per gallon? I'm trying to figure out what "normal" is? Depending upon reason for using it sounds like in the literature you could use anywhere from 1 tsp for 3 gallons to 1 tbsp per gallon?

[digitalgate]

Originally Posted by kmarch

What is? A Paph? Paph helena?

any Paph to me is difficult. Of course for you might be the easy type.

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by digitalgate

any Paph to me is difficult. Of course for you might be the easy type.

Naw, paphs are easy for me. And what I mean by that is that I am able to give them the conditions they expect. I'm sure Bolero will do fine with his paph seedlings.

[tocarmar]

Originally Posted by mayres

Tom - when you say 1/4 to 1/8 strength physan 20 - is that like 1/4 to 1/8 tsp per gallon? I'm trying to figure out what "normal" is? Depending upon reason for using it sounds like in the literature you could use anywhere from 1 tsp for 3 gallons to 1 tbsp per gallon?

Mike,
I use about 1/8-1/4 tsp in a 2 1/2 gallon sprayer just when I am doing my seedlings. I use 1/2 tsp in same sprayer for large/mature plants.

[mayres]

Well.....before reading your post I gave them a precautionary spray with physan 20 at 1/2 tsp per gallon - we'll see if I have any negative response from the "kids" due to this. Yikes! In reading the directions on the bottle it appeared that 1 tsp per gallon was a fairly normal application rate for older plants.....Hmmm.......

[mehitabel]

Mike, be careful with physan on phal seedlings. Bob Gordon says it can be toxic to them-- he doesn't say never use it, but he does say do not use it often.

And I have to say, I read Bob Gordon's caution only after I lost a whole slew of phal seedlings in a few months a couple of years ago. Every time they started to go downhill, I brought out the old physan. They weren't fresh out of flask, mostly 2" span seedlings with a few skinny roots.

Yours may be okay if you don't repeat.

[trinigirl]

Great thread Mike.

I have a flask of Phal pulcherrima that I got from Troy Meyers about 1 month ago, they are in community pots and doing great. The only few losses I have gotten are from these little worms, that eat orchids and become really big worms then ugly moths. I did not use physan, only fertilizer in the moss at the beginning.

From reading through what Peter said above, does anyone know what he meant by moist moss versus damp moss? I think knowing for sure would make a big difference in seedling culture.

Thanks.

[mehitabel]

Hi trini. I think "moist" vs "damp" would be that "moist" is drier than damp. You get moist by wetting, then sqeezing all the water out and fluffing up.

[Undergrounder]

Hi, how are the flasklings going?

I deflasked this cross and found that most of the offspring have been very strong growers!

[mayres]

Thanks for the interest. How long has it been since YOU delfasked?
So far all but a few of the very smallest are still alive, though I don't know if I'd say "thriving"? I'm just not sure of what to expect as I have never done this before. The only 1-2 that died probably didn't make it because they had teeny tiny short roots that I didn't have adequately covered due to their odd direction of growth in relationship to their leaves - like the same - would have required burying the entire plant. Didn't know what to do with this type of growth. Like I said earlier - just trying to figure this out!
The first 3-4 weeks I had my plants under cheapie T12 fixtures. I needed to move them to another location because of other plant issues and ended up putting them under a 200W CFL. Never used one of these before so I'm hoping it will work out OK. The plants are a fairly light colored green - hoping this is normal. I'm also trying to keep them in the mid 70's as much as possible.
I'd love to see some pics of yours if possible?

[Undergrounder]

I'll post pics next time i go down and check them out mayres, i deflasked them... umm... it would have been 7 months ago? From memory most of them have strong, round leaves with a leafspan of about 8cm. It just finished being winter here so they should speed up a bit now.

Yeah you expect the really tiny ones to die, and you'll often lose the ones with just one tiny root as well.

When you get a root growing upwards, i try to carefully bend it back down while the root is wet and supple... doesn't always work, depends on the root.

If you get roots coming out -above- the bottom leaf, it might be worth peeling off the bottom leaf if it is small. Then you can bury the root into the medium without worrying about the leaf being buried.

Sounds like it should work fine, I used to use a CFL (can't remember the wattage) but because it shoots light off in every direction i found it doesn't actually give off a lot of light in a single direction. But it should be fine for the Phal. seedlings, they don't want or need more than 2 or 300 footcandles of light at that age. I keep mine under just a single T8 54W fluoro tube (with a crude reflector in the housing) sitting about 25cm above the plants and have gotten good growth. They could probably handle a second one now though.

These novelty hybrid types are generally more difficult to deflask than standard hybrids, they grow slower, but these are pretty good.

[mayres]

I think they may be getting a little too much light currently - some of the smaller ones are getting on the pale side. I emailed Peter and he suggested less footcandles (maybe 300 instead of 500) and less hours (currently I have had them on 16 like my big phal lights - may cut back to 12-13 for awhile and see how that does?).

[Ron]

Hi Mayres.
It seems all is going well for your deflasking project.
One thing I find after deflasking Phallies is they seem to like a rest, for about 6 weeks they hardly do anything. Then all of a sudden the start to grow more roots and the old ones kick into action. Then as it warms up the whole plant system takes off.
Best of luck
Ron

[mayres]

Two months later and I now have them moved to a secondary room and have them under a 200W CFL - probably not the best setup, but it's what I have for now......
Have been thinking about taking the big group in the middle and moving them to individual pots in the near future?

[Undergrounder]

I wouldn't pot them up until they're bursting out of the pots, or at least until they've grown new leaves. The new leaves will be shorter and 'rounder' and not so thin and 'flasky'.

[Ron]

I wouldn't pot them up until they're bursting out of the pots, or at least until they've grown new leaves. The new leaves will be shorter and 'rounder' and not so thin and 'flasky'.

Hi Mayres.
I totally agree with Undergrounder, I usually wait until they outgrow the pots or if I am not happy with the way they are growing in the present medium. From my personal ofervation I think they are too light in clour, I would like to see them a bit more greener.
Are you feeding them yet.
First time in deflasking can be a big learning experience but I love it.
Good growing
Ron

[hera]

You're brave to go through the deflasking process, but the cross should be spectacular when it finally blooms out. I agree with letting them grow a bit more in the pots they are in. Be patient. Splitting them off means more work for you in keeping up with more pots to dry out and you'd have to rethink your light setup. Here's another rule of thumb that I have heard and usually go by, three leaves and three good roots before potting up.

[mayres]

One of the things I love about this forum is getting input from the experts who have walked here before! Thanks guys - they will stay where they are for the time being! Maybe by next spring they'll be pushing each other out of the pot? (I hope)

[patticake]

They look good! I agree with the others to leave well enough alone for now. I only have de-flasking experience with Paphs and Cattleyas, but I've learned to be patient with them. Like a fine wine....

[mytwogirls]

I am still new to growing a phal, but one day I would LOVE to try this. This is awesome!

[mayres]

Well.....for good or ill I moved 19 babies to individual pots this weekend - transferring from sphag to coir mix that I grow my other phals in. Will see how it goes. One in particular has REALLY taken off and almost needed a larger pot. A couple others were pretty small - but since they were in the same community pots I crossed my fingers and moved them over as well. Will see how it goes. They have now been almost six months in my care......

[LouisW]

That is great progress for 6 months!!

You're making it look easy!

Even the underdogs are looking like they are stable and on their way!

[plucker]

Sounds like you have had a fair amount of success with the deflasking which is great.

I have found the biggest issue for my deflasking is the fungus and bacteria attacks straight out of the flask. Although I have humidity and heat naturally most of the year.

[psyc1210]

Very cool Mike! This is really neat to see your progress!

[Phalcycle]

Can't wait for the outcome!
Post pic as soon as they bloom please =)

[Irene]

Nice! Now I'm getting the flask bug.

I have a question for you de-flaskers. What do you do with all those plants?

[mayres]

That is an EXCELLENT question Irene.
Lots of options. Lots of options include sales at orchid shows, sales at orchid societies, gifts for friends, trades with anyone interested, etc. For me personally I #1 just wanted to try the experience to start out with and see "if" I could do it, #2 I'm curious as all get out to see what kind of genetic variability there will be in the blooming - so I'm somewhat hesitant to get rid of any of my babies until I see what kind of blooms they might have. Based on the few seedlings I've raised previously I'm guessing that this will take clear until about two years from now for the majority of these! It certainly takes patience!

[plucker]

I keep the best and offload the rest.

[kmarch]

Thanks for the update mayres! They look GREAT!

[Brooke]

Congrats, they are lookin' good!

Brooke

[mayres]

Another two months! What do you think?
I've lost some of the very tiny ones - they appear to be damping off? If I see the tip of a leaf starting to go I can cut it off and save the plant, but if I'm not paying attention it will claim the entire plant very quickly. This has been a most interesting process! A couple of these little buggers are definately now on steroids!

[LouisW]

Wow! Looks like you are getting close to blooming size on a few of those!! Im really impressed!.

I may be interesting in trading of buying one or two once you get a few of them to bloom. Keep me in mind.

[Brooke]

Mike you must have something else going on and not damping off. Damping off appears at the base of a plant, is a white fuzzy growth and the plant will fall over.

The seedlings look great good job!

Brooke

[mayres]

Brooke - Yes, I guess you are right now that I think of it. I work in the vegetable business and "damping off" is usually associated with seedlings coming up and then we get a lot of rainy damp weather and they disintegrate right at soil level and topple over. At any rate I believe my issue might be due to marginal air movement - I do have some, but not any too much. They get a little greyish/pale in an area and then it takes them over - some sort of fungus or other disease organism I suppose. The plants affected are itty bitty plants that admitedly a commercial grower would not fuss with anyway I suppose. Since it doesn't cost anything to try them all I'm just leaving every plant that came out of the flask that was big enough to put in a community pot. Some had just a correspondingly itty bitty root or two maybe a fourth of an inch long.

[mehitabel]

Wow! Those big guys are very impressive! Such a lot of growth in a little over 6 months. What an adventure for you

[Anisa]

The cross is very nice. It looks like you might get some flowers soon and see what did they come up with I am amazed by a size difference of seedlings/little plants.

[maria1971]

Very nice!!! I regularly get flasks from Troy Meyers and it's exciting every time!!! I'm getting ready to move some catts and laelias from compots into individual pots. It's a long process but totally worth it. I also got some Eulophiella elizabethae in a flask exactly 1 year ago in May (for redlands) and 4 out of the 10 survived. They are growing at a really fast rate now.


Good luck and keep the pics coming.

[VEEKTOR]

WoW! These are going to be beautiful!
I've just read this thread from start to finish and
feel the flask bug like never before!
LoL my girlfriend would Freak Out! Our place is SO Tiny
and my plants are already taking up so much room, heh.
I have 6 paph seedlings and 1 phal seedling right now,
reading all this has me rethinking my set-up.
Thanks!

P.S. Any chance for some new Photos?
Sept was their One Year Out of Flask Birthday!

[zaeem]

A success story healthy growth.Thanks.

[Ron]

P.S. Any chance for some new Photos?
Sept was their One Year Out of Flask Birthday!

Ditto

[hera]

Please update, even if its just growth. I bought a compot of a similar cross around the same time and I would love to see how yours are doing. Mine are growing slowly, but I noticed that this summer was a good growth period for them. Should be blooming by next summer.

[Ron]

Please update, even if its just growth. I bought a compot of a similar cross around the same time and I would love to see how yours are doing. Mine are growing slowly, but I noticed that this summer was a good growth period for them. Should be blooming by next summer.

Ditto, how are they now progressing

[mayres]

Okay - I'm really excited about some of these actually - I'll try and remember to photograph them tonight or tomorrow and post.

[mayres]

Okay - here are a couple of quick snapshots of my "babies". It is hard to believe that they all came from the same flask when you compare them. (Note: I recently viewed an orchid growing documentary that showed a big commercial company repotting young seedlings - EVERY plant that was not the "normal" large size as the majority of the rest got tossed into the "junk" pile - and the pile of discards was literally thousands upon thousands of young seedling phals!!!!!! I couldn't believe it.) In my case I've let the weak die of their own accord to this point. You can certainly see how a group of folks growing/competing at growing a group of seedlings (even from the same flask) may not be all on equal footing as the genetic combinations are all scrambled throughout - even with identical care they absolutely do not all grow the same! (Kind of like people)
The first picture is a shot of my front runner. Looks big enough it could be blooming right now if the conditions were right. There are also a few right behind. Then there is the general population of 20-25 medium growers. And then a few slow growers that look nice and healthy, but are the runts. In my group shot discount the front third of plants that are a mixed group of various other seedlings I'm growing.
What do you think?

[syndywindy]

Those look great, Mike. I bet it won't be long before you see your frontrunner blooming! Makes me want to try a flask.

[hera]

Looks great, can't wait to see the results!

[Ron]

Thanks for the photos update
They certinally are growing along nicely
Keep up the good work

e.

You can certainly see how a group of folks growing/competing at growing a group of seedlings (even from the same flask) may not be all on equal footing as the genetic combinations are all scrambled throughout - even with identical care they absolutely do not all grow the same! (Kind of like people)

I do not and never will enter any clubs competition such as a grow comp for that exact reason. Not very fair on the new or inexperienced growers.

[peterlin]

Hi Mike - you grow these very grow. I too am looking forward to you flowering these.

[Filb]

This is a very informative thread.
I've been wanting to delve into flasking and thought I would resurrect it.

(Also an update on how your litle Phals are doing mayres would be lovely!)

[mayres]

If you have the patience I would heartily recommend the experience of taking on a flask of "baby" phals. Mine don't appear significantly different than this last post EXCEPT I do have one plant that now has a flower spike . Also....it has been a long winter in Oregon and I didn't do as well as usual taking care of my phal family. Because of my flasklings I was inclined to keep them in a back bedroom of my house with the door shut (to save from heating the rest of the house) - even though I did have air circulation - it was pretty much trapped in this tiny room with not enough air coming into the room and flowing through and out (like FRESH air). Anyway.....I say that to note that I didn't keep a close enough eye on the group and before I knew it there were some disease organisms creeping into my plants - so some were significantly negatively affected and even lost a few. Seems every year you learn something different to either do or not do. Another thing I learned (for myself), is that when you have a large population of phals (for me at least - about 70-80 including my seedlings) in all different stages of growth and pot sizes, having them in coir can be a significant challenge. Coir mixes can be fanstastic for phals - but the watering scheme is CRITICAL. With my mix of pot/plant sizes it requires checking plants every day (nearly - or at least seems like it) or you end up either over watering some or underwatering some if you go with the attitude of trying to cut corners and "just get it done". Bad idea. At least for the time being I've decided to deal with this issue by switching my plants over to coir CUBES - will see how that goes?! I'm thinking this media will be more forgiving on the overwatering end? I'll try and post another "family" photo soon. Thanks for asking. Oh......and.......go ahead and try a flask yourself and share the experience! You can do it!

[sallyliao]

It looks like you've prepared well and done a fantastic job deflasking. Please consider keeping us updated on their progress form time to time.

[Mattzilla]

great thread on deflasking....

thanks for sharing i have learned a lot!

thanks
matt

[TheBlazingAugust]

Any new photos?