panicking newbie deflasks

[dragonfriend]

hi everybody, just wanted to post to let u know how much this forum helped me (I take full responsibilty 4 the outcome!) A couple of months ago my partner bought me 3 flasks of Cattleya X orchids. (He airily told them not to bother sending instructions- due 2 my gardening knoweledge I would know what 2 do). I did not deflask, (in fact I had never even heard the term), because we were coming into winter which is quite cold here (Perth,Australia) and as we had just moved in I had no where 2 set them up. I read up a bit and figured they would be fine til spring. They seemed quite happy until last week, then they started going brown...argh! I rushed to the net for advise, found your site, speed read my way through various methods, an then I deflasked using my infinate new knowledge lol. Well I think it was too late for two flasks(sob) but the third seems to be going ok so far. Pics of deflask, an today, week later, I cant put link in? Search deflask mic. Sorry to go on, thank you all who have posted.

[jerrymeola]

The forum does not allow photos until you have posted 5 times. This is to limit spam. 5 posts come very fast and welcome to the forum, we hope to hear from you a lot.

[Ron]

Hi Dragonfriend & fellow Aussie.
Welcome to the forum, home of lovely, helpful and friendly people.
Lots of us deflasks and can be a very rewarding and cheap way of building up a nice collection.
Look forward to seeing the photos.
Cheerio
Ron

[jay]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

I just looked at your images in the gallery. The brown one are gone and should be removed from the pots, especially if there are any good ones in the same pot. They have suffered bacterial rot.

The good news is that the green ones look pretty good. I look forward to hearing more about these as you go.

[FLLAURA]

Hi all... i'm new here and just love your site! What does "deflask" mean? Other than draining a container of burboun

[jay]

FLLAURA - Orchids seeds are grown in a sterile environment in a flask. They can't just be planted like other plants because they need a fungi to work as a food source since they lack an embryo. Deflasking is when you take them out of the flask after the plants are large enough to put into pots.


Welcome to the forum. You should start an introduction thread so that more members can meet you.

[dragonfriend]

Originally Posted by jay

Hello and welcome to the forum.

I just looked at your images in the gallery. The brown one are gone and should be removed from the pots, especially if there are any good ones in the same pot. They have suffered bacterial rot.

The good news is that the green ones look pretty good. I look forward to hearing more about these as you go.

Thanks Jay, I was wondering if I should, I worried it will spread to the other punnets/pots. Bacterial- I sprayed them with that cinnamon mix I read about on this site, will that treat bacterial? There are a couple of green leaves in the brown ones and thats about it, so not much to save! Why did they go brown in the jars? They were fine for ages an it was real sudden- couple days. Was wondering if it was the cooler temps here, or maybe not enough light? I have a thermometer on them now, they sit around 15-18 celsius but they would have got bit colder than that a few times, maybe 10 degrees. I didn have them in direct sunlight, still dont. They bout metre an half(5 feet?) away from a window.

[jay]

I really couldn't tell you why they got the bacterial rot in the flask. There are a lot of possible answers, but I am not too sure of any myself. I have only deflasked once before so I don't have the answers there.

The cinnamon spray does help with bacterial if caught early enough. Cinnamon is a growth inhibitor. The oils in the mix are for coating the bugs like a tar and feather. They can't breath with the oil and will be suffocated.

Some of the ones with a little green might make it, but it will be an uphill battle. Good luck and keep us posted on the progress of the seedlings. We love to see these little guys grow up.

[Andrew]

I doubt they suffered from bacterial rot in the flask. Bacterial and fungal infections in flask are usually not pathogenic and instead kill the plants in the flask by out competing and smothering them rather than infecting the plant tissue. What you describe with the brown plants sounds like toxicity resulting from a build up of phenolic compounds in the media. Orchids in flask can release small amounts of phenolic compounds over time. The charcoal in the media normally absorbs these compounds but if you (a) leave the plants in the flask for too long or (b) have too many plants in the flask, the concentration of these compounds can increase to toxic levels killing off the plants in the flask. If the plants are completely brown there's probably not much you can do. If there's some green left in the newer leaves and the crown it may be worth removing the brown leaves and seeing if they survive. You may want to spray with a systemic fungicide like Fongarid, given that the plants will have some tissue damage and will be more susceptible to fungal attack.

[dragonfriend]

ok, phenolic compounds sounds like a workable explanation. I did not think of that possibility. I was stumped because I figured that if the flask is hermetically sealed to protect the orchids from any pathogens, infections etc, then the only way an infection could be inside the jar would be if it entered when they first flasked it, in which case the plants should have exhibited signs of it pretty much straight away? I have 'flasked' algae culture before years ago, and I remember we found out within days if we had been successful in keeping the bottles sterile- if not it died! Bit different though because they were open to air through a filter so wasnt sure if the same...Would it be possible for bacteria to be present but only affect the orchids if the ideal environment for it to thrive, such as change of temperature, light exposure were provided? In theory if the flask were kept in conditions ideal for the orchids but not the bacteria, the bacteria may not have developed and gone unnoticed? Although that would be a stretch because most pathogens would thrive in the ideal warm humid environment, I just wondered if that is possible. The plants were pretty big in there, the other possibility I thought of was that they became too big to be self sustaining- is that possible? Sorry if I getting bit carried away, I really get into this kind of stuff! Normally I just wander round the house muttering to myself cos everyone elses interest stopped hours ago lol! I love it, the challenge of providing the perfect environment, staying a step ahead of any potential problem, ultimately years until I have succeeded in coaxing my tiny delicate orchids to flower, my true proof of success ...ahhh.... no wonder my friends think Im nuts! Im the only person I know who actually has a library in my house so I can look things up! Anyway, I have cut all the dead leaves off but I left the roots in because they still look ok. If I can keep the root system healthy, will they shoot new leaves? Also, how do Catts feel about root disturbance? I carefully lifted up some moss to check the roots, if I keep doing that will it upset them? I will monitor them til weekend, if they seem to be going ok I will stick to the cinnamon. If they deteriate further I might have to pull out the big guns and get some fungicide. Is it true that fungus, bacteria etc can come back and bite you months later if you dont use fungicide straight away when deflasking? Obviously my problem is a bit more immediate, I just mean could this affect my orchids long term as well? Thank you all for your help and interest!!! I will keep you posted. Although my mixed success has been a bit of a knock down (I dont often fail so spectaculary!), at least I still got some healthy ones, now I just gotta keep them alive. 10 days down, only six years(?) to go ha ha!

[dragonfriend]

Well the healthy flask plants are still alive, healthy and am pretty sure, growing!
I treated them with fungicide after my last post and bought a heated wire that sits underneath the pots. This works better than a heat pad because I can put more wire in or take some away to control the temps. They now sit between 16-19 celsius during night and 25-29 during day.
I put all the babies into the clay pots as well, this helps them dry out quicker and gives me more airflow around them. Before they were still wet after week and half and I think thats why I got mould. Now I let them dry out and then water about every 4 days.They have bauxite in the tray which I spray to keep the humidity up. The lid sits up on the pots to allow airflow. So between all these things I have been able to keep them mould free, yay!
Still too cold to put them outside.
Bit worried bout how long to keep them in sphagnum, how long til I should repot? Next time I do, should they just be in bark?
They are Blc. Redland Delight 'Big Boy' x Blc. Goldenzelle 'Tokyo'
Try put up some pics, hope it works!

[terry_sealey]

It looks to me as if you have done a great job there. It is always difficult getting the correct combination of heat/humidity/airflow to get good growth on the plants but to limit algae and mould.

I would never consider putting plants as young as this outside, irrespective of what the weather is like (but I do live in the UK and have no idea what conditions you have there). Plants this size are best kept inside where conditions can be kept as stable as possible.

Media for growing them in is really a personal choice and depends on what type of grower you are. If you do not fuss over them or water them a lot then moss would be fine. If you are an avid tinkerer and can't leave them alone then a fine bark mix would be better. Really the plants will adapt to most types of media if the conditions are right.

[patticake]

I would try to acclimate them to your room atmosphere soon. They need air movement. just make sure you mist the growing medium to keep it from drying too much! They look good!

[trinigirl]

They are looking nice and healthy. You have done an impressive job so far!

[dragonfriend]

Thanks for the advise Terry. Patti, the lid sits about an inch up on the pots and the vents on the top are now open( I did it all slowly over few weeks) so they are pretty much room atmosphere now. I keep the lid over them to keep the humidity up- its very dry inside my house from having the fire going every night. They are now on a shelf next to a window where they get indirect sunlight all day. At night, the blinds and the lid help protect them from temp changes from being so close to the glass.
I am using the skewer method recommended on this site. I let the moss dry almost completely and then drench or soak pots.I try to water with luke warm water but have forgotten a couple of times. Does it make any difference?
I give them weak fertiliser once a week, so about every second water. They are more forgiving than I thought, I made a few mistakes along the way but picked it up pretty quickly cos I check them a million times a day . . . . probably they are living off the carbon dioxide from my breathe lol!

[patticake]

Sounds like you're on the road to some beautiful plants!

[dragonfriend]

Well my babies are still going great, no problem with mould so I havent had to treat them again, only the once. So I have built up some confidence and have ordered some more flasks! They should be here in bout 2 weeks and need to be deflasked straight away. Cattleya mericlones. It is just impossible to get good plants any other way because we are a quarantine state. Every time I find something I like, I cant get it! I will post pics etc of the new babies when they arrive.