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Old 12-06-2007, 10:01 AM
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pollen

Would it be possible to harvest the pollen from one orchid to save to cross with another orchid that blooms at a different time of year? I have one thats in bloom now but the other that I could cross it with wont be in bloom until february.
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:00 AM
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Yep-o! I just fold them into a little bit of coffee filter and staple to a card with the name and harvest date on, then store in a cool, dry place (for me, it was one of those plastic recipe card boxes in my bedroom).

-Cj
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orchidflowerchild View Post
Yep-o! I just fold them into a little bit of coffee filter and staple to a card with the name and harvest date on, then store in a cool, dry place (for me, it was one of those plastic recipe card boxes in my bedroom).

-Cj
Sweet! My Blc. Chia Lin 'new city' am/aos is in full bloom now. I was wondering what it would look like if it was the pollenator for my Cattleya aurantianica which bloomed in February and has two sheaths right now but no sign of buds yet.


Any thoughts?

Pod plant-

[IMG][/IMG]

Pollenator-

[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 12-06-2007, 05:57 PM
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Are they clones or seedlings? It might not take if both are clones. Kmarch can probably give some advice on this. If it takes, I think it would make a nice cross.
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Old 12-06-2007, 07:44 PM
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Being cloned has nothing to do whatever with how well a plant will or will not take. Overcloned orchids are unwise to use as parents, due to the risk of mutation, but apart from such cases, a clone is just that, an exact genetic copy. People who breed on a commercial scale invest in stud plants to avoid risk of mutation, but I really don't think someone dabbling in small-scale bredding really need worry.

As for the proposed cross, I'd research to see if the cross has already been made. Look into similar crosses (complex standard catts crossed with aurantiaca), and see if you like the results of such things, if there are pics to be found. Sometimes, you will find a breeding direction that has no or very little work. THis could be because the genetics of such crosses make them difficult in setting pods or the seedling could be weak. ALso, the chromoseomes might not match up. Sometimes, however, the direction you are interested in going just hasn't been explored. I'm laying plans for starting some breeding in Sophrocattleyas that hasn't been very much explored. I have a notion to breed large-flowered labiate cattleyas with sophronitis species OTHER than S. coccinea, especially S. wittigiana, looking for pink and lavendar Sophrocattleyas.

Of course, when working with Cattleyas, you are looking at a minimum 4 year time from seed to bloom, and that is providing them perfect grenhouse conditions. Also, when breeding as a hobbyist, consider the size of the plants you are breeding. I will only be keeping 30 or less plants from any cross I make, because I don't have the greenhouse and wardian case space to grow out hundreds of big bruiser cattleyas, or even tiny Masdevallias, for that matter. I'll grow on thirty or so plants, bloom them out (if they are tiny, larger things, I may sell off 15 plants or so) then keep only the best (or my favourite) 2 or 3 plants.

-Cj
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Old 12-06-2007, 08:03 PM
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new city is a mericlone but the Catt. is not.
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Old 12-07-2007, 01:01 AM
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Orchidflowerchild: How is cloning done on orchids? Is it by just creating more keikis or by inducing cells to grow (mericlones?) or duplicating chromosomes 'in vitro'? The last one would seem to be too expensive ( and naturally more mutation-prone).

And what is a stud-plant?

Thanks in advance.

exasperatus2002:I am not sure if what you expect to have in shift in time for bloom is specifically controlled by genes.

I think chemicals (either rising or falling concentrations) within the cells control that cycle. Light plays a very critical role in producing not only food but also in the production of enzymes.The enzymes facilitate syntheses of some hormones/proteins that will eventually induce flowering. At least that is my understanding.

I don't know much about plant chromosomes but ,as orchidflowerchild noted, most mis-matched chromosomes will not produce offsprings and even if they do the resulting offspring will be usually sterile ( with a very few exceptions) and so are not useful for breeding purposes. I think ligress( lion X tiger), mules and hinnies (horse X donkey) and the recent crosses
betwen Asian elephant ( Elephas maximus) and African elephant (Loxodonta africana) are all incapable of reproducing themselves.I may be wrong on the last one since the program is in its infancy, about 40 years or so, I believe.

Elephants are exremely slow breeders.Orchidflowerchild was talking about 4 years for orchids. Elephant take almost 13 years ( 22 months in the womb and 10 years to maturity, let alone 50% infant mortality rate).

I hope orchidflowerchild or kmarch can tell us if the time of blooming is controlled by the genes too.
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Old 12-07-2007, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikevi View Post
Orchidflowerchild: How is cloning done on orchids? Is it by just creating more keikis or by inducing cells to grow (mericlones?) or duplicating chromosomes 'in vitro'? The last one would seem to be too expensive ( and naturally more mutation-prone).
Mericloning. Apical meristem is removed from lead growth and cultured in agitated nutrient media until it is a ball of undifferentiated cells, it is divided, agitated, and so on until you have as many meristem lumps as you want.

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And what is a stud-plant?
Usually, an awarded or at least very special plant used for breeding. Most commercial breeders buy up divisions of awarded plants, rather than clones, as there is nil chance for clonal mutation. These plants are known as stud plants and are part of the permanent collection of breeding stock of a breeder.

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I don't know much about plant chromosomes but ,as orchidflowerchild noted, most mis-matched chromosomes will not produce offsprings and even if they do the resulting offspring will be usually sterile ( with a very few exceptions) and so are not useful for breeding purposes. I think ligress( lion X tiger), mules and hinnies (horse X donkey) and the recent crosses
betwen Asian elephant ( Elephas maximus) and African elephant (Loxodonta africana) are all incapable of reproducing themselves.I may be wrong on the last one since the program is in its infancy, about 40 years or so, I believe.
One of the most fascinating things about orchids is just how well they will breed with other species and produce perfectly viable hybrids. THere are sextageneric hybrids, out there!

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Elephants are exremely slow breeders.Orchidflowerchild was talking about 4 years for orchids. Elephant take almost 13 years ( 22 months in the womb and 10 years to maturity, let alone 50% infant mortality rate).

I hope orchidflowerchild or kmarch can tell us if the time of blooming is controlled by the genes too.
Generally, yes, but it is more complicated. There are issues of culture and seasonality that can slow or accelerate the process. Ploidy can also play a role. Triploids (3n) and tetraploids (4n) generally grow slower than do their diploid (2n) counterparts.

-Cj
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Old 12-07-2007, 01:38 AM
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Thanks so much, Orchidflowerchild.

You even answered my unasked question about 2n and 3n which I was reading about recently . I did not think that it was possible when I was redaing about it.

No I understand how seasonality could be linked to the genes , albeit indirectly.

Thanks again.

exasperatus2002: I am sorry if I had mislead you in my last post
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Old 12-07-2007, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikevi View Post
Thanks so much, Orchidflowerchild.

You even answered my unasked question about 2n and 3n which I was reading about recently . I did not think that it was possible when I was redaing about it.

No I understand how seasonality could be linked to the genes , albeit indirectly.

Thanks again.

exasperatus2002: I am sorry if I had mislead you in my last post
No worries! I am so glad I found this website. I learn something everytime I log on.
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Old 12-07-2007, 12:41 PM
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3n is a wierd situation. Triploids normally will not breed. They are the result of crossing tetraploids and diploids. Triploids often have a lot of the positive aspects of tetraploids (heavier substance, larger, fuller flowers) but to breed with them is a pain. Some people will clone a triploid and treat it with colchicine (a very volatile chemical that causes chromosomal mutation) in hopes of tetraploid or hexaploid clones that can then be bred with tetraploids or diploids. I can' think of any successful hexaploids, though. Just too much genetic gobbletygook, and the danged thing is crippled and dificult, any time I've heard of someone producing a hexaploid.

-Cj
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Old 12-08-2007, 12:22 AM
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I know how complex it can get. I was trying to understand all the hybridization and the chromosomal numbers and I gave up. Plants seem to be quite tolerant of vast variations in chr. numbers. Quite frankly animals seeem to be less tolerant and humans even lesser. I think in humans , even slight changes in DNA will result in aborting further development. But ,of course, rare instances of extra chromosome is tolerated ( Down's syndrome) where Chr15 or Chr21 or both could be replicated.

Colchicine , though quite poisonous , is used to treat extreme gouts and is very effective in reducing inflammation. It makes sense in what you said about it being used in orchid hybrids. Its use is not very common since it, though not classified as DNA altering drug, has caused 'mutations' in blood cells (leukaemia).

It is interesting that plants and animals have many things in common

Thanks for the info, Orchidflowerchild.
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Old 12-08-2007, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
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It is interesting that plants and animals have many things in common
We're all based on the same chemicals, aren't we, then?

Circle of life, and all.



-Cj
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Old 12-08-2007, 11:56 AM
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LOL, WELL said.

Every living thing is based on two base pairs: A-T,G-C. What a wonderful concept of NATURE ( or almighty as some may prefer)!!!
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Old 02-20-2008, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orchidflowerchild View Post
Yep-o! I just fold them into a little bit of coffee filter and staple to a card with the name and harvest date on, then store in a cool, dry place (for me, it was one of those plastic recipe card boxes in my bedroom).

-Cj
Will the pollinia get hard during storage ? Mine are still yellow but they got hard. Will that be ok to use?
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