What makes a Paph "complex"

[dr_frnkblck]

Amersault and I were trying to figure out what determines a complex Paph?

[amersault]

yeah, Franco and i were having a 'complex' discussion on Paph delenatii and we were both wondering if this qualifies as a complex Paph.

are bulldog Paphs complex?

what's the definition of 'complex' in this case?

[Ron]

Hi.

Amersault and I were trying to figure out what determines a complex Paph?

.
To me as I grow a lot of these "TYPES" and show them.

1; Complex is a loosely worded statement of the type of exhibition Paphiopedilum for show purposes.
It was bred to a standard and is show as a standard.

On our show schedule we word it as 'Complex" in the Paphiopedilum class

2; British bulldogs, dinner plates, exhibition, standards, complex all refer to the one type " complex"

Remember they are bred to a judging standard for showing purposes.
Below is one of my better one.
Cheerio
Ron

[kmarch]

The term Complex Paph refers to a particular line of breeding characterized by single, large, waxy, round flowers. They are also known as "bulldog," "frog," or "exhibition" paphs. These paphs are the product of many generations of breeding over the course of many, many decades even a century and so they're very far removed form the original species that were used to create them.

Here are some pics of typical "complex paphs":
http://heartofamericaonline.com/Comp...%20awarded.JPG
http://www.slipperorchid.com/other_o...een_Free_1.jpg
http://www.parksideorchids.com/image...Valwin%20S.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94...ltheawhite.jpg
http://hillsviewgardens.com/Merchant...lsview_g2s.jpg

One of our own members, katrins, recently posted pics of her new complex paphs: http://www.orchidgeeks.com/forum/orc...loom-pics.html

On a more practical note. I don't like the term "complex Paph" to be used for this line of breeding. Why? Because the term "complex" is also used for any cross that has a hybrid for a parent. For example, many Maudiae-type hybrids are complex hybrids because most of them have hybrids for one or both parents. Most of the cattleyas we grow are complex hybrids etc., etc. This overlap of terms confuses many folks so for this reason I prefer to use the term Exhibition Paph to represent the type of paph described at the start of this post.

Paph delenati would not be considered a complex, bulldog, (etc., etc) paph. It's a species and not a hybrid at all.

Does that help?

[kmarch]

To clarify a couple of things Ron's said:

Originally Posted by Ron

...It was bred to a standard and is show as a standard.
...Remember they are bred to a judging standard for showing purposes.

A long time ago, mostly originating in the UK, a show or judging standard of paphs evolved that said (at risk of oversimplifying) a paph should be big and round. This aesthetic appealed to people at the time (as it still does to us today) and it appealed to breeders who bred extensively along these lines. I do not know for certain which came first, the interest in breeding big round paphs or the judging standards but either way, this is the "show standard" or "judging standard" that Ron is referring to.

Today, interest in other types of paphs has risen to the point that in some places you hardly ever see Exhibition Paphs any more at all. In other places (like here in Australia) they are still quite popular. Probably about 1/3 to 1/2 of the paphs I see at VIctorian shows are Exhibition Paphs. Because there is so much more interest in growing, breeding, and showing other types of paphs, there is no longer a single show or judging standard. The modern standards take into consideration the lines of breeding. For example today we'd never hold a Paph rothschildianum or a Maudiae-type hybrid ot the "big, round" standard of an Exhibition Paph.

So overall, those old judging standards are obsolete, no longer used for general paph judging although they are still used specifically for Exhibition Paph judging.

And, boy Ron, I'd sure like to get my "judging hands" on the paph you atached to your post. As my judging friend John would say "It's a corker!" I'd be itching to give it a ribbon!

[kid a]

Wow! Thanks for asking this question franco! I was kinda wondering myself! SO if the term "complex" can applied to paph crosses with hybrids as parents does that mean (hopefully i understand this correctly for this usage of the term "complex" the my Paph delanatii "China Girl" x "Pink Fusion" would not be considered a "complex" because the parents are not hybrids but they are just different cultivars? Is "China Girl" and "Pink Fuision" the cultivar name? I am soooo confused lol.

[Ron]

Hi Kevin.

And, boy Ron, I'd sure like to get my "judging hands" on the paph you atached to your post.

.
It won me G'Champion at our local show a few years ago.This photo was as first flowering seedling.
The judge at the time was very nice in his comments.
Unfortunately it is difficult to get the required number of judges at our general shows to award judge plants.
Still love the type and this is one of my best from flasks.
Awarded or not awarded!
Just love them.
Thanks
Ron

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by kid a

SO if the term "complex" can applied to paph crosses with hybrids as parents does that mean (hopefully i understand this correctly for this usage of the term "complex" the my Paph delanatii "China Girl" x "Pink Fusion" would not be considered a "complex" because the parents are not hybrids but they are just different cultivars?

Yes you're correct. Your Paph delenatii is a species made form different delenatii cultivars, not form hybrids.

Originally Posted by kid a

Is "China Girl" and "Pink Fuision" the cultivar name?

Yes, correct again. Both 'China Girl' and 'Pink Fusion' are cultivar names.

What you have in your delenatii is what we call a "line bred" species. Breeders try to improve on species by selecting those which have better colour or better form or better size (or better whatever). They'll take these select species, in this case these delenatii, and cross them with eachother in an attempt to get a delenatii with all of the best delenatii characteristics. Because the parents (in this instance) are all delenatii the offspring is as well.

Originally Posted by kid a

I am soooo confused lol.

You don't sound confused to me. Even so, here's a little chart that might help:

any species X with itself or another plant of the same species = that same species
ex. Paph delenatii x Paph delenatii = Paph delenatii (a species)

any species X with a different species = a primary hybrid
ex. Paph rothschildianum x Paph philippinense = Paph St Swithin (a primary hybrid)

any hybrid X any species or any other hybrid = complex hybrid
ex. Paph Supersuk x Paph Raisin Pie = Paph Hsinying Alien (a complex hybrid)

[kid a]

Cool! That is a very helpful chart Kevin! Thank You!

[Ron]

Hi.
Rather then Hijack your thread, I have started another.

Complex Paph, the Good, Bad & Ugly.
Maybe help in some way to understand what they should look like.
Check out the photos
Cheerio
Ron

[amersault]

great way to expain it kmarch - thanks for the chart!