Vanda Watering

[The Chosen One]

I recently purchased a Vanda Pachara that I have opted to grow in a cedar basket. I like the look on the hanging roots but right now I don't have anything in the basket. I saw an interesting post somewhere that mentioned filling up some space in the basket with wine corks anyone ever try that? Someone also posted on Spanish Moss which sounds interesting as well.

Since I purchased in the winter months I'm planning to try and grow indoors for the time being until it warms up, and then maybe move outside for the spring summer months. Right now I have it hanging in a West corner window that gets a lot of sun. I got the plant in bloom and it has 5 huge flowers that look great. However, since its gotten here its dropped one lower leaf already which normally with my other orchids I wouldn't consider since thats what they do. However the next two leaves up are starting to shrivel and I'm beginning to have concerns about hydration.

I see lots of information on wondering copiously but I was hoping for a little bit more help here. Right now the humidity in the house is low due to the central heat and hangs around 40%. I mist the roots at least once, most days twice, cause I know humidity really needs to be up there for these guys. Typically, with this type of orchid inside how often do you "mist" and how often do you "water", and when watering what is a good method for a hanging orchid? Soaking the roots (vs. spraying) seems most reasonable if you want to fertilize, but I'm new to Vanda's and looking for a good routine.

[rodbender]

sounds to me like you arent giving your plant near enough water. when you mist the roots they should turn from white to dark green if they are mottled green after misting wet them again
My Vandas are misted daily and it usualy takes a couple applications to fully wet the roots, I mist till water starts dripping from roots wait 5 mins or so and mist again wait 5 mins then do again
With the low humidity you have you may find you need to wet the roots twice daily to maintain the moisture in the roots
When I fertilize once a week its done on the second or third application of water

[lmartiny]

You could soak it in the tub.

[lissie0113]

i stick mine in the shower, and let the water run for about 3-5 minutes, then stick it back outside.....

[articuno75]

I soak mine every chance I get. LoL When I shower, it bathes with me. I soak it for hours every two to three days or so. I mist it up to twice a day, just as Rodbender says, until it's dripping wet. I have my plant's roots covered in Spanish moss to try and build some moisture retention, but with the aridness of my apartment....It only helps a little.

[digitalgate]

It is nearly impossible for you to create the humid condition that the plant need. Unless you have a green house for it. The leaf dropping probably going to continue as it is recovering from stress (movement). Be careful when you put it near window as glass is
very cold to the plant. You need the sunlight but not the cold air near the window. Having a warm air blowing at it create problem as it is too dry for the plant. May be putting into
a vase with a little water will increase the humidity it need.

[mitko]

Yes, everybody think the same- your vanda is thirsty, that is truth . Vanda lives in tropical areas, where humidity is higher - 80-90 and when it`s raining 100 %. You mist your vanda , but it is not enough . You don`t give time for resorbtion of this water. Soak roots every day for an hour and sometimes more, when you have time take the plant with you when you having shower. It is 100 % humidity in the bathroom in this moment. It is " eden" for wanda, especially when it lives in so low humidity place . Try to give more air humidity , use humidifier , or put trays with water next to the plant. You will decide what you may do for increasing humidity . The best way is using humidifier. For 24 hours it can evaporate 1 to 4 liters vater in the air . It will make humidity higher- that is beter not only for plants, for people living there also.
My vandas live in orchidarium, and they bloom regulary. Humidity is about 85-90 % , temperatures are between 18 /night / and 24-28 o C , there live also some babes vandaceous- 2 vandas and 1 babe rhynchostlis. All without media , hanging in baskets. And all are filling well

[jerrymeola]

You can see from the earlier posts that success with Vanda in a home is care intensive.

I hate the word misting since it too often means under watering until dead.

If you carefully read Lyle's method you see it is really heavy watering and not a light mist. Even misting until the roots get green is not sufficient indication of enough water. Too often the water dries before the plant had time to drink enough water for its needs, starting a long slow decline.

What Lyle said about watering until the water beaded at the bottom of the root is necessary to get the roots to grow down. Lack of water will cause the bright green growing tip to dry and stop growing.

Two things I suggest for Vanda in the home. Take the plant and place it in a bucket for a couple of hours a week. I have left them up to two days without damage to the plant, but try to remember to remove it. This gives the plant enough time to drink all the water it wants.

Second I recommend adding Worm Tea to the soak. The microbes in the Worm Tea retain moisture in the roots much longer. University research indicated as much as 20-30% more water retention. I find this is very easy to see with Vanda when I place a Worm Tea soaked Vanda next to one watered daily in a commercial greenhouse. After 12 hours the difference is notable.

At the Sarasota Orchid Show last week I did not water my Vanda during the three day show and I would have people feel the roots on Sunday, which still felt moist to the touch.

Adding bark, cork or moss to the basket is only good for seedlings. It will retain moisture in the basket but at the expense of the long roots. This will cause roots to grow around the basket while the long roots die off.

You can not raise the humidity in any significant way so realize your roots will dry faster and treat accordingly. Vanda leaves yellow and drop even in a commercial greenhouse. It is not always a bad sign

[Brooke]

I grow my vandas with their roots contained in baskets and use lava rock as the media. Vandas look great with their long roots dangling but even in a g/h, they are a PITA to give them enough moisture and fertilizer to make them happy.

My first and only large vanda is the suavis. When I received it from a commerical grower it was in a 8" clay pot with lava rock. The newer roots were growing over the edge and missing the pot so I decided to put it in a basket. I expected the roots inside the pot to be dead but when I busted the pot, the roots were packed inside the pot. Obviously the roots thrived in the clay/lava rock environment.

I put the roots and the lava rock into a big basket and it continues to grow like a weed. Even in the heat of summer, I only water it once a day. I now grow all of my vanda family in baskets with lava rock and try my best to keep the roots in and around the lava.

Good luck - I hope you can keep it happy until it can go outside this summer.

Brooke

[lissie0113]

i have just recently seen evidence of what jerry is saying about worm tea and vandas. I have a vanda that was actually my first orchid ever, that i had been neglecting. i noticed it again when 3 leaves in succession turned yellow and dropped off in 2 weeks time. since then i have started putting it in the shower again (i take for granted the high humidity here in florida) and bought some worm tea last week. just in that weeks time i have noticed a huge difference in my vanda roots. no more yellowing, and the plant looks better already. last flowers were in july.... so maybe the worm tea will jumpstart things again!

[The Chosen One]

Thanks all for the comments!

Jerry regarding the worm tea soak what kind of dilution would you recommend? I have some Terra Cycle Worm Tea in spray bottle form that I use for my Phals. Just curious how you mix for a soak.

[willowbanks]

The Chosen One, well you have gotten a lot of advice above, I won't go out on a limb and give you any because I haven't seen a photo of the plant to really see what is going on.

What I will say is

1 Using corks in the basket is fine.

2 Moving plants from where they grow normally to the shower for humidity and back again will only stress your plant, think about it, it's common sense, solve the humidity problem where they grow.

3 Soaking Vanda roots is virtually a waste of time, once the velamen (white coating around root) changes colour from white to green that's it, no more water will go into your plant. The velamen is like a sponge and you can't get more water into a sponge than it can hold can you.

4 Jerry mentioned Lyle's method of

"watering until the water beaded at the bottom of the root is necessary to get the roots to grow down"

this is incorrect, Vanda roots grow down simply because of gravity. If they attach themselves to another host they will grow in any direction.

5 Jerry stated

"At the Sarasota Orchid Show last week I did not water my Vanda during the three day show and I would have people feel the roots on Sunday, which still felt moist to the touch."

This is a clever marketing trick to sell Worm Tea and new or inexperianced growers would be taken in by it. Anyone that grows Vandaceous knows that the velamen dries in 1 to 2 hours and is dry to touch. Three days Jerry, unbelievble!!!!!!

6 Jerry also states this

" Adding bark, cork or moss to the basket is only good for seedlings. It will retain moisture in the basket but at the expense of the long roots. This will cause roots to grow around the basket while the long roots die off."

This statement is almost totally incorrect, he has the moss correct, I would not use it on Vandas in baskets.

Cork does not hold any moisture except on the surface after watering and is very safe to use.

Bark is perfect for Vandas, large chunky stuff not small, it retains some moisture for humidity. It does not cause roots to grow around the basket as he said. Jerry, I think you are confused between Vanda and Ascocenda, a lot of the smaller Ascocenda types (there are large Ascocenda types) have smaller roots and do like to grow around and over a nice basket, it's not the media, it's the species in the background of the hybrid that determine the root growth habit.

7 Worm Tea is a fertilizer with a very high nitrogen content, they get around having to put a NPK rating on it by marketing it as a tonic.

I know what I have said above will upset some but the truth has to be told and I couldn't stick my head in the sand any longer.

Willowbanks.

[articuno75]

I know that a lot of you think that this stuff is as just as much "snake oil' as Brookn's Recipe.

Well I'm going to post some pics that perhaps, might show different.

Give me a few and I'll get my Phal Naples Nights grow project........

[articuno75]

Here is the plant and the root system of my Phal Naples Nights project. This plant has been getting nothing but wormtea until here about a mid November I started giving it Essentials and Companion. (Some of the members already know what these are ) Just with wormtea alone I noticed that the root system was bigger, holding more moisture, and either not having or not having as near as many bad roots. This is an awesome plus.

(look at the pics of the roots the moss is bone dry but the roots are STILL moist!!! ) This is where the water less factor comes in

The really super uber big pluses for me is this. It's organic and a natural pesticide. I can spray it anytime I want to without worrying about breathing toxic fumes. I can't say so much about that for other insecticides.

Fert or not, selling gimmick or not, I've got kick ass results I just can't pass up I'm hooked on it as much as my addiction to orchids. Believe me, I will never buy Miracle Gro again.

So gimme Snake Oil any day. I take results that won't harm or kill me and apply them to my daily life.



Between my wormtea, Brookn's recipe, and Cinnamon, I've got a regimin that my plants thrive on and won't change it for the beans.

[willowbanks]

Sorry Jenny but I don't see anything in those photos to get excited about, besides that, it is a Phalaenopsis not a Vanda or Ascocenda that my comments above refer to.

I never said Worm Tea was no good nor would I call it Snake Oil, I have had my worm farm for about ten years and use the tea on my lawn, great stuff for that.

I woud like to know what you are also giving your Phal plant other than Worm Tea to suppliment the P & K that your plant needs.

Bill

[jerrymeola]

The chosen one

The Terra Cycle Worm tea is made by 'boiling' worm castings in water. It has a lot to do with marketing and I do not think it will give the results of fresh vermi liquid.

The brand from Our Vital Earth is a 50-1 concentrate.

[articuno75]

I only give my plants the wormtea. I just recently started giving my plants Essentials and Companion.

[lmartiny]

Hello Bill,
It sounds like you may have a lot of experience with vandas. I have a few small ones and a big one I acquired at a show about two months ago. I am new and learning, so any tips you can provide are appreciated.
One thing I have learned since being on this site is that everybody has such different growing conditions. From windowsills, to greenhouses, to outdoors. Plus, the geographical differences.
Plus, we all vary in how much/how little we tend to the needs of our orchids.
I just bought the worm tea mix and am going to give it a try. I've also mixed up the cinnimon mix and tried that as well. I noted a couple of other retail pesticides/fungicides but haven't tried those yet. I was going to try the others first.
There have been some good reports from those using these products. If they work for some, great. If not, then you move to another method. No big deal. I'm only just now paying attention to orchid needs (and buying too many new ones because of this site).

Lynne

[jerrymeola]

I have not before responded to personal attacks like Willowbrook but this is too much.

To say that the Vanda at the Sarasota Orchid show were not still moist is to say I was watering the plants and lying to the customers. This I will not accept. Anyone who wants to see the results need only soak a Vanda in Worm Tea and check the roots. They will not be dry in 1-2 hours.

When I started in orchids, I believed that you should water a Vanda until the roots turned green. It was a slow lingering death. You are not watering roots you need to be watering a plant. If the roots dry before the plant has had enough time to move the water from the roots into the leaves, the plant is on a slow course to death.

Worm Tea is not a high Nitrogen product. I have published the lab analysis of Worm Tea in response to a request in an earlier thread. There is almost no fertilizer in the liquid. I do not have the report in front of me but it was in parts per million. I believe it was 7 ppm of Nitrogen; 3 of Phosphorus and no Phosphates. Then it dilutes 50 to 1 for use. There is no NPK rating since it would round off to zero.

You are too quick to dismiss the photos of Jenny's Phal. All roots function the same and it was a valid comparison. For the results on a Vanda here is a photo of a Vanda on the products. The photo has been in the gallery for months. The plant has 100 actively growing root tips. When someone can show me a photo of a Vanda on water and fertilizer only that looks better I will listen to them.



I could discuss each point made but the rest are opinions and everyone is entitled to theirs. I just point out that no Vanda nursery in Florida uses bark in their mature plants and I have never seen cork in a basket.

[lmartiny]

P. S. I've been soaking my big vanda in the pool. And dunking an unruly mount with dens and a phal. there as well. Never when the pool has recently been shocked though.
As pointed out by a fellow geek here in FL, our tap water is no more chorinated.
I've soaked it in the tub as well. I don't think moving them to water them is particulary stressful for that short period of time. They are likely just happy to be watered, and then placed back where they are. In some growing situations, it is necessary.

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by jerrymeola

... soak a Vanda in Worm Tea and check the roots. They will not be dry in 1-2 hours.

Well maybe, maybe not. The rate at which roots (or potting mix or anything) would dry depends heavily on the temperature and humidity. If the humidity is 98% it may take time for something to dry off but if it is hot and dry (like it's supposed to be here tomorrow - 34C [about 97F] and about 10% humidity) then they could dry off in a few hours. It's all relative.

Originally Posted by jerrymeola

I could discuss each point made but the rest are opinions and everyone is entitled to theirs. I just point out that no Vanda nursery in Florida uses bark in their mature plants and I have never seen cork in a basket.

We all need to keep in mind that it's the needs of the plant that are important and the same regardless of where the plant is grown. The methods of delivering what the plants may need can vary according to geography.

Florida growers may not need to use bark or any other medium in growing vandas. In other parts of the world people may use bark for various reasons. Just because vandas are brown "bare" in Florida doesn't mean they should or must be grown "bare" in other areas.

The needs of the plant are what's important and they don't change. A Vanda needs what a vanda needs whether grown in Florida, Australia, or Siberia. The method by which we deliver those needs can vary.

[Anton]

I won't buy into this discussion, but a couple of people asked about Willowbanks experience with Vandas.

I know he wouldn't do this, but I will on his behalf, these are a few shots I took of his Vanda house when visiting him last year.

These will attest to his experience.

[Brooke]

WOW those are gorgeous - thanks for sharing.

Brooke

[digitalgate]

Ooooo, nice orchid.actually no point in putting down anyone. We are here to grow beautiful orchids. Having a few friends along the way would be nice. Who care how you got it done.

[LauraGR]

I did some research on the web last nite. There are a number of sites that call Worm tea fertilizer and sell it as such. Jerry you say here it isn't called fertilizer but makes it open to taking in more. I have been treating it as an organic enhancer for my plants, but havn't used it long enough to be able to say it is enough in itself. Jenny, you seem to be using it with Companion and Essentials as the one additive for your plants, as I have been.
I have been organic gardening for years. I use lots of compost in my garden, use manure, and various other organic means. Some of this translates inside to my potted plants. GardensAlive! is a company that uses totally organic means for plants, fertilizing and pest care, and has houseplant fertilizers as well.
If Worm tea isn't a fertilizer, is more needed weekly/weakly?

[lynda]

Well I only have one Vanda and found watering it a pain (it was hanging in the dining room window) so obviously I didn't want water dripping.......I think i solved "my" Vanda problem------I hung it over the kitchen sink in front of a large bump-out window...........so when I pour water over it it just drips into my sink. Just hope it blooms this summer. Actually it looks kinda interesting hanging with my kitchen pots on a pot rack. But more important I actually remember to water it more often.

[willowbanks]

Here you go Jerry, Vanda roots grown using water and fertilizer. (Photo at bottom)

Jerry, you need to read this extract from Wikkipedia, it clearly tells you Worm Tea is a fertilizer.

"The dark brown waste liquid that drains into the bottom of some vermicomposting systems, as water-rich foods break down, is also excellent as fertilizer. However, the pH and nutrient contents of these liquids (as well as solid vermicompost) varies, depending on the food fed to the worms and whether or not lime has been added to the system. pH and nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium (NPK) measurements should be taken periodically to determine the fertilizer composition before use. Home kits for testing are sold in hardware stores and nurseries."

I have nothing against Worm Tea, it is great stuff and I use it for soil based application but not on my Vandas without a NPK rating.

On the subject of cork Jerry, The Chosen One asked a simple question at the thread starter

"I saw an interesting post somewhere that mentioned filling up some space in the basket with wine corks anyone ever try that?" My answer to that was "Using corks in the basket is fine." Nothing to do with using (expensive) cork as a media. There is a grower in Brisbane (Con Gyger) that has been using wine corks in his Vanda baskets for over 20 years, he has a great collection of Vandas and wine corks.

Jerry, my comments are not a personal attack on you, you have made comments above that I do not agree with, I'm having my say to correct what I see is bad information being passed on to new or inexperience growers, it's called freedom of speech.

Bill

(How do I get this photo to appear at the top)

[fred]

Bill if you use an Image host ( example ) photobucket you ad the IMG code ( copy the IMG code in the image host and paste the IMG code into your post )

[lmartiny]

Well, since we are avid wine drinkers (maybe to avid) we certainly have a large supply of wine corks. (if anybody should like some) I save them up and give them to my pet sitter who does crafts with them. Hmmm... I'll have to ask her what it is she makes.

[willowbanks]

Thanks Fred, looks like I've got the photo at the bottom, really don't know how I did it, I'm lousy at this photo game.

Bill

[fred]

thats fine Bill you have used the attachment feature on the forum
that will always ad the pic at the bottom of your post
using an image host and the IMG code will put a pic anywhere you wish to use that in a post.
I was lousy at doing that once as well

better get back to the topic sorry "geeks"

[The Chosen One]

Thanks again to everyone for sharing their perspectives. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Ron]

Hi Anton.
Very nice lot and they look well grown.
I am only learning to grow Vandas for the first time last year.
Even after 18 months of growing I am still looking at other people advice and growing methods.
While to me "Worm teas" etc. seaweed extracts, fish emulsions, Liquid organic are just a kick start tonic. (O hell, I had better book the undertaker!)
Applied several time a year.
But from experienc you can not beat using a complete fertiliser with a good NPK.
Not over done, but used regular.
Organic are good in keeping up the beneficial fungis etc, to help the plant roots take up the chemical fertiliser to a certain degree and give something to the plants.

It is a never ending argument, I see a lot of new club members suffer with this logic of only organic teas for the feeding of orchids.
Common Question asked.
Why do my orchids only flower every 3-4 years!
When look into it mostly is they are starved, uderfed, especially plants like Cymbidiums, the most commonly grown orchid in Australia.

Vandas, again advice from a professional nursery was to give them a mix at different times and in Summer keep up the watering of the root system. Let them hang free!

Members, pick out what sounds resonable and give it a try.
Believe me there is no wonder fertiliser out there, mostly it is a combination of all and good growing conditions.
Cheerio
Ron

[Anton]

Well Ron, Bill put me onto this following regime and it has really made quite a difference.
It works in a weekly cycle.

Peters Bloom food (with added Ca) + Seasol
Grow food + fish emulsion
Seasol + fish emulsion
Grow food + Seasol
Peters Bloom food (with added Ca) + fish emulsion
Seasol + fish emulsion then it just repeats.

This gives them all the nutrients on a regular basis, but in a varied way.
Has given me the best success I have had.

Maybe Bill can shed some more light on it, but I know he has been using this regime for years with excellent results.

If you look back in the archives at my "Orchid Vacation" to Queensland last May, I have more images there of Bill's setups, the proof is in the seeing.

I don't think this is highjacking the thread, just another tangent on the topic.

[Ron]

Hi Anton

Peters Bloom food (with added Ca) + Seasol
Grow food + fish emulsion
Seasol + fish emulsion
Grow food + Seasol
Peters Bloom food (with added Ca) + fish emulsion
Seasol + fish emulsion then it just repeats.

This gives them all the nutrients on a regular basis, but in a varied way.
Has given me the best success I have had.

Sound like good advice, a good and balanced mix of organ & in-organic fertilisers.

Cheerio and Thanks
Ron

[lmartiny]

Anton, the "proof is in the pudding."

I had to correct that.

[lmartiny]

Anton, the pictures you posted above show some lovely Vandas. The proof IS in the seeing. What is seasol?

[willowbanks]

Imartiny, Seasol is a brand name in Australia for a liquid seaweed extract, full of natural hormones from kelp.

It's the same as powdered kelp before adding the water.

[janice]

I have several Vandas that are inside during the winter.........and my humidity is very low..............I water and hang them over the sink or the bathtub twice a week........and they have done very well..............and they have bloomed like crazy......A couple of them do have some large bark pieces in the basket but several are bare..............for some reason they have done well..............................I left them over Christmas hanging over pans of water..................and I can't tell that they suffered at all.............I have used worm tea in the warm/summer months and do fertilize periodically.

[lynda]

Originally Posted by lynda

Well I only have one Vanda and found watering it a pain (it was hanging in the dining room window) so obviously I didn't want water dripping.......I think i solved "my" Vanda problem------I hung it over the kitchen sink in front of a large bump-out window...........so when I pour water over it it just drips into my sink. Just hope it blooms this summer. Actually it looks kinda interesting hanging with my kitchen pots on a pot rack. But more important I actually remember to water it more often.

My small Vanda "seems" to be doing well, but it doesn't seem to be getting any larger since I purchased it in September .. shouldn't it have grown larger

[Karlos]

I have a guestions for advanced orchid growers about watering vandas in Clay pots or wooden basket without potting mix.

Do you water only through roots, or whole plant to leaf axils?

How often do you water your plants? In literature are informations, that optimal conditions reguires watering once or twice in hot days.
I heard information, that wandas and phalaenopsises should not be misted on leaves in hot or dry conditions, because water on leaf surface activate stomata, and plant loses water and is more desiccated. It is true?
What about fertilising? Do you use standart 0,1% liquid or more diluted?
Fertilise your plants to roots or whole plant? Technique? Fine spray or intensive shower?

Is manure tea good fertiliser for wandas?
What glucose solution?

Thank you. I take care of Vanda collection in botanical garden, and some plants are stressed and little desicated.

Sory for primitive english.
Karel Hajda, Czech Republic.