Fdk. After Dark

[zuri]

Hi orchid lovers,

My boyfriend got me a Fdk. After Dark as a Christmas present and lucky for me he gave it to me early.

But it came in a box from Hawaii, and upon arrival it looks very, very sad. The leaves are yellow with many black spots, obviously dying and suffering from a fungal or bacterial infection. (See picture.)

The seller's ad says that this orchid looses its leaves this time of year and then blooms. That it's losing its leaves is obvious, but I'm not sure whether the infection is the cause of the lost leaves or whether the infection was opportunistic and developed BECAUSE the leaves started going.

Roots look healthy (as much as I can see of them): fleshy and firm. The pseudobulbs (3) are green and firm.

What do you know about this hybrid, and what are your recommendations for its care? I'm afraid to put it in the same room with my other orchids.

[zuri]

http://www.cababstractsplus.org/goog...o=20053101886:

Fredclarkeara After Dark, a new orchid hybrid derived from Catamodes Painted Desert × Catasetum Donna Wise 'Kathleen', possesses dark, heavily-spotted and good formed flowers that last for 4 to 5 weeks in perfect condition. It grows well under intermediate Cattleya-type conditions of bright light (approximately 3000 foot candles) and a seasonal temperature range of 50 to 65°F (10 to 18°C) nights and 75 to 90°F (24 to 32°C) days.

[chefatplay]

Hi Zuri, sorry, I don't know anything about your orchid. I sure do hope it makes it. After all, your loved one tried hard on this one!!! I LOVE your avator, what is it?

[zuri]

This is it! The Fredclarkeara After Dark. This one is the 'SVO Black Pearl' cultivar.

Information is very hard to find on it. All I know is that it's a rare and fairly expensive hybrid created by Fred Clarke of Sunset Valley Orchids in California. Four of the FDK AD cultivars have won AOS First Class Certificates.

Trusting my instincts (whether they were right or not), I've cut off the leaves and given it a cinnamon bath. Not sure if this was the right decision, but the poor thing looked awful, the leaves weren't doing anything for it anymore, and I didn't want the infection to spread.

[LouisW]

I Recently attended a lecture by Fred Clark and he said that it is normal for the leaves to look like this.

Im not certain but i think that the connections between the leaves and the plant have been severed and the leaves are allowed to die and therefore may be subject to fungal and bacterial infections. Natural decomposition while the leaf is still attached.

Just a theory.

[LouisW]

It should be fine that you cut off the leaves. Now stop watering. Start up again when new growth appears.

[zuri]

Louis,

Your reply gave me a deep sigh of relief. And your theory makes good sense. How was Fred's lecture?

Many thanks.

[jay]

Check this thread out. Several of us got them in the spring. I am waiting for mine to bloom now.

http://www.orchidgeeks.com/forum/gen...e-project.html

Your plant does not look bad to me. The leaves go through the wringer since they get mites very easily. Some of my leaves looked really bad before they fell off. Mine currently has 4 leaves left.

I am not sure if it is just the picture, but I am not sure that yours is definitely blooming size. That looks to be about the size our bulbs were when they were starting new growth. I would guess that it may bloom next year. Go to Fred Clarke's website to see more detailed care instructions.

[zuri]

Jay,

Thanks for your reply and thanks for directing me to the thread on the FDK After Dark. What an adventure. How're everyone's After Darks doing?

You're right that mine does look smaller than those you got in San Diego (the picture is a little weird...makes it look smaller than it is, but still). The seller told my boyfriend that it was from a batch of blooming-sized orchids (& some of the siblings have bloomed). But it was an ebay seller, and I say that you never do know...

Any recent pictures, Jay?

[chefatplay]

Wow, Zuri, that is stunning. I doubt if I will be able to get one of those anytime soon. I can't have overly picky plants, not enough time, yet. Who knows what will happen when I win the lottery!!

[zuri]

I can only imagine what would happen if you should win the lottery.... if any of us should win the lottery. I think the world might be a better place if more people had an orchid fetish.

[LouisW]

Hi Zuri

I would bet that will spike this cycle.

The lecture i attended was really enlightening and its a bit of a story too. i wrote a thread about it titled "for those who are involved in the Fdk. After Dark project," it is currently on the second page of the general chat section.(sorry i dont know how to make a link). I also wrote a synopsis of the information that he presented entitled "Catasetinae." That is under Orchid Care.

[zuri]

Louis, thanks for directing me to your thread on Catasetinae. Excellent.

After reading your thread, I opened up my inbox and found a reply from Fred himself. He sent me a culture sheet which had all the information you gave us plus a little extra. If anyone else would like a copy of the culture sheet, let me know--I'm happy to forward it.

[LouisW]

Is it the same as on the Sunset Valley website? If it isn't i would like to have a look at it. You can never know too much.

[Greenhouse Gal]

You lucky, lucky people. The rest of us expect pictures and updates as the growth cycles continue. Thanks.

[PhalPal]

Mine has lost all it's leaves and they looked just as yucky before falling off...well, with just a little bit of help from me.
It was nerve wracking!

[zuri]

Louis, indeed it is the same culture sheet as the one of the website. I had to do a quick search just now to verify it. It makes me feel a little less special to know I didn't get a very special culture sheet; and at the same time, I'm happy that the information is there for people to find (unless you're like me... and then you might miss it). For anyone who wants to see the culture sheet, it's at
Sunset Valley Orchids - Grower and hybridizer of quality orchids, Vista CA

Greenhouse Gal, you can count on me to take pictures and upload them just as soon as my After Dark shows its first signs of coming out of hibernation... I'm super excited and can't wait to see what it does. I'm eager to see other people's pictures as well.

And PhalPal, I found the state of the leaves to be nervewracking as well! If any of my other orchids looked like that... oh, man. Reassuring to know that it's all a normal part of the growth cycle, and is just another testament to how extraordinary orchids are. My biologist boyfriend pointed out that their versatility, adaptability, strength and stamina is the reason that Orchidaceae is the largest family of flowering plants.

Thanks to everyone for their input. You all are as wonderful as your Orchids are.

[davetheorchidaddict]

I looked it up on OrchidWiz, that is a beautiful bloom, think that I will have to get one for myself. As far as the plant that you got, looks normal for that Genera, I receved 2 from Mexico last month and they are just in a basket until new growth starts, these are 5 and 6 bulbs so will have more than one new sprout then they get over their rest, no water now. I have 10 other ones up on a shelf in the gh waiting for them to decide they have rested enough. I grow them in a net pot with spag, have one crowded pot that started out with 2 bulbs and get 6 or 8 new bulbs each year, thinking about dividing them this year. They are fun to grow then find out if you have male or female blooms. They are both different and have their own beauty.

[Jon Young]

If you follow the culture sheet everything will be fine the only thing I would ad is when your new growth starts don't get water in it. It will rot in no time. Higher light will give female flowers. I hope this helps.
Jon

[LouisW]

Dave, dividing the plant would be a good idea because they bloom best when they have only three or four bulbs. Not sure why but I have heard that. Some people divide them every year and re pot each rootless bulb individually every year. This sounds a little extreme to me though.

[zuri]

I had no idea that Catasetinae (or any orchids for that matter) were dioecious. I read somewhere that orchids are monoecious. From then on I stopped thinking about my orchids as being male or female. What do you know about this topic? How many orchids are dioecious, how many monoecious?

Anyone have any pics of the male vs. female on these, or of any orchid flowers at all? I'm really curious to see the differences.

Thanks for the tip on light levels. ...Do I want a female flower?

Louis, it might have been Fred who told you that they bloom best at three or four bulbs. I know you went to his lecture. He told me this information in his e-mail--or it might have been on the culture sheet. He said he keeps his down to about three bulbs.

Jon, does your advice apply to all new growths - or just with Catasetinae?

[jay]

Fdk. After Dark is a flower that is both male and female. It does not have different flowers like many others in the Catasetinae sub-tribe.

As for the other plants of the Catasetinae sub-tribe, the plants are not male and female, the flowers are. It is possible to have both male and female flowers on the same spike. Some say it is light, some say temps, some say amount of water and fertilizer. Fred Clarke also believes that the health of the plant makes a difference. A younger weaker plant may not have the energy for a successful seed pod so it will probably produce male flowers.

Either way, with the Fdk. After Dark you don't have to worry about this since they are like most other orchids having both male and female parts on the same flower.

[LouisW]

"It is possible to have both male and female flowers on the same spike."

Jay, are you sure about this? I was under the impression that each year the plant either produces male flowers or female flowers. I admit that the only source i have on this is fred clark but everything he said seemed logical.

I know that the genus Dimorphorchis produces two different flowers on a single stalk that can hang down twelve feet from the plant. The first few flowers on the stalk are extremely fragrant and I believe that they are sterile and are present to attract the pollinators because the fertile flowers have no scent, but are more colorful. They are very rare in cultivation right now. There is one on eBay right now with about six or seven leaves (vandacious) going for $145.00. Im not buying it but it sure is interesting.

Zuri, If you are interested in this type of thing you will never be bored with orchids. I have found that there are surprises around every corner and just when you thought you had seen it all you stumble on something like Bulbo. minutissimum or Den. senile. there is some weird and interesting stuff out there.

P.S. it was Fred that tought me about the bulbs but I was trying not to brag too much about having been to his lecture. (it sure is hard when his hybrids come up in conversations)

P.P.S. for the biggest difference in male and female flowers in the Catasetinae check out the Catasetums.

[Greenhouse Gal]

I find it really interesting that almost any strange thing that plants do, one or another orchid does. I found one example of the female vs. male flowers at this site; Clown Alley Orchids News
Scroll down the page until you see the first row of pictures, the center one is a female Cycnoches with a link under it to a picture of the male.

I am sort of sorry if I have fed anyones addiction with this.

OK. Not really sorry.

[Jon Young]

Jon, does your advice apply to all new growths - or just with Catasetinae?[/QUOTE]

I try not to get water in any new growth but especially Cycnoches & Catasetum & that go's double for this time of year. In the warmer months when there's more natural light & with the air & fans going I don't have to worry to much. Where I get in trouble is this time of year when I water my Odonts & don't pay attention, get water in the new growths & a few days later they have started to rot. That's why I stopped foliar feeding this time of year even though I like to do that for my plants.

Jon

[zuri]

I'm so happy with the direction this thread is going. I find the topic of male vs. female flowers fascinating. Can anyone tell me more, or where to find more information? And back to my question about monoecy vs. dioecy... are there any species or cultivars that are truly dioecious?

Louis, gosh, I'm envious of the fact that you've been to a Fred Clarke lecture. Of course, I'm fairly new to growing orchids, and so don't much about who's who in the orchid world and therefore am easily star struck. I say you should go ahead and tell people!

[jay]

I am pretty sure that the same spike can have both male and female flowers. I was at Fred's place this past spring and he showed me some pictures of this. I suppose there is a possibility that the picture had two different spikes, but it was definitely one plant in bloom with both male and female flowers. I believe it was Catasetum tenebrosa.

Fred has some really interesting theories on the evolution of these orchids. Some believe that this group of orchids have failed to merge the sexes as most orchids have. Fred believes (or at least he did when I spoke to him in the spring) that this small group of orchids are the ones that are more advanced and evolved. By having separate male and female flowers it guarantees offspring that are not crossed with itself (with the exception of the rare cases when a plant has both male and female at the same time). By doing this the plant preserves genetic diversity and prevents inbreeding.

Fred actually had a picture of a plant that had a flower with both male and female parts, as well as flowers with only one sex. He said he wished he would have followed that plant a little closer to study, but ended up losing track of it.

Keep in mind that all of this information is from Fred Clarke when I visited his greenhouse in the spring. I do not say it is 100% accurate since I have slept since then and could have forgotten some details.

[LouisW]

Jay, when you say "rare cases when a plant has both male and female at the same time" do you mean that the flowers are abnormal because they have both sex organs?

Freds theories make good sense to me. The plants grow male flowers when they are too weak to seed, but this allows them to still get their genetic material out there via pollen. Not only do they save themselves the energy of producing seed but also the female sex organs themselves. When the plants have a good year and are strong enough they produce female flowers, because they are prepared to exert the energy needed to produce seed pods.

Here is my only problem with what you say Jay: If the plants produce male and female flowers at the same time (happens only when they are healthy?) what is to prevent them from self pollinating? I admit that this is still a leg up from most orchids but it would make much more sense if the plants only produced only one type of flower at a time.

That said evolutionary biology can be extremely complicated and just because I dont understand it, doesnt mean its not true. It just means I have to get smarter.

[jay]

LouisW, I believe that it is rare to have both male and female flowers at the same time. That is what I meant by the rare occurrence. Most of the time the plant will have one or the other, which helps preserve the genetic diversity.

Sorry I wasn't clear on that. It sounded good in my head before typing it.