HELP! What do with a new, deformed leaf! My new leaf won't grow :(

[neworchidlover]

This is my first orchid and well she's been through quite an ordeal. First I accidentally cut the base with a razor leaf...and it took her a while to recover from that.

Then miraculously...she did ok and grew a new leaf!

But sadly, her new leaf grew the wrong direction as the leaf was forming...and now I'm afraid she has a bad leaf.

I did a brief sketch because I don't have the pictures I took, and I can't get the zoom close enough to show the detail that would make sense. But basically the plant was to the left of a large florescent light. The leaf was on the right side, so it kind starting growing up and turning to the left towards the light.

I noticed this, and of course should have had the common sense to move the plant to a different spot or part of the office. But for some reason I didn't think to do this as a solution. Something wrong happened as the leaf was growing and now looks like the sketch I posted. The sketch is exaggerated, but basically the pieces didn't come together to form an oval shape. And there is this gap, or square shape where a completed oval leaf shape should be.

A new second leaf started growing too, on the left side. That little leaf started growing maybe three or four weeks after the first one.

The left leaf now is almost as big as the right leaf (even though the left leaf is much, much younger). I don't think the right leaf is growing anymore. It seems to have stayed the same size for a while. This might not mean anything but the left leaf is still a very soft almost pastel lime green. The right one is a deeper jade green. So the left leaf still has like a baby green color to it, while the right leaf's color looks more mature. But the two new leaves are pretty much the same size.

I'm not sure if there is anything I can do or what that means for the plant going forward. If one leaf is growing and the other one can't grow. Should I trim the leaf that can't grow? Or would the plant just grow a new one over that. Seeing as orchids grow upwardly, I feel like it might be a problem if the new leaves don't grow properly. Because aren't the new leaves steam supposed to be a foundation. And because then how is a new leaf supposed to grow up on top of that?

I guess I'm wondering, how it would damage the plant if one of its newer leaves isn't growing and can’t grow properly?

[GrowInHydro]

What type of orchid?

[mehitabel]

Hi, orchidlover. First, congrats on reviving your orchid from its setback. That takes a lot of close observation and skill, so good going!

I can't tell from your picture what kind of orchid you have. But leaves that alternate left-right sound like you have a phalaenopsis. To verify this, go to the American Orchid Society website, and check out their culture notes, where each sheet has an outline silhouette of the orchid.

If you do have a phal, quit worrying. There aren't any "bad" leaves unless they are rotting. Some are less lovely than others, of course. But your leaves sound well within the normal range to me:

1. New leaves come in paler and softer, and will darken and toughen up with age.

2. After a big setback, such as yours had, the first new leaf will be smallish. Leaves on a plant that is improving will keep coming in bigger than the one before. The smallish leaf is still serving the plant, giving it's all. The plant's energy obviously went into a second leaf instead of growing the older one bigger. No problem. The "deformed" leaf isn't hurting the plant, it's helping it, contributing it's small bit to the health of the plant.

*As long as your plant is growing and improving, assume it knows what it's doing, because it does* Only worry when it stops growing and starts to look miserable. A phal growing shiny new leaves is a happy phal. !!!

3. Leaves often twist themselves or grow straight up, etc for reasons of their own. You can gently redirect them using some of that soft green velcro tape for plants. Wrap the tape around the leaf, next day pull it a tiny bit in the direction you want it. After a few days, pull it a little more, etc. Use a *light* hand, or you'll be soooo sorry. After a week or so, you have substantially altered the direction of the leaf. The rough edge-- who knows what caused this.

You just need a little confidence, and the only way to get that is by time watching and growing your plant, learning about it by reading and observing it. And giving yourself credit for what you have already achieved.

Good luck.

[janet_a]

yep, i sometimes have to stake leaves on my phals; got two right now that are staked. another thing that happens sometimes is that the leaf grows so fast it doesn't really have the strength to hold itself up and it flops. as the leaf fills out it gets stiffer. just turn the pot to see if the leaf will phototrope in the right direction, and stake it if you have to.

[neworchidlover]

Hi Janet:

Thanks for the response! This is my first orchid and I am not sure what that means to "stake", or how to "stake?". Or what it means if the leaf will "phototrope in the right direction"?

I've made another sketch maybe to help with the idea of whether or not she is "phototroping" the right direction. I will try and have some pictures posted tonight or tomorrow!The "sqaure" part is on the leaf on the right side, right in the top/middle section of the right leaf. It's a little difficult to see, but it's basically that area with the squareness to it on the top (the bottom is just difficulty using microsoft paint)

Is there any danger to leaves not growing correctly. Will the plant eventually stop growing, or yikes give up? Or will it just make a new leaf and correct itself eventually?

[janet_a]

oh no, as stated above, any leaves are good leaves. they'll just look funky. "phototroping" is the scientific term for leaning towards the sun. so just keep turning the pot and see if you can get it to go in a direction that might free it up more. as for staking, i just stick a stake in the pot somewhere and gently lash the leaf to it; i use long tie tapes or whatever's around. just be gentle and tighten up the tie a little every couple of days. just as you would a flower spike. you might even be able to tie it off to another leaf.

[Brooke]

You can also use masking tape to redirect a leaf. You can remove the tape, gently, and never damage the leaf surface. Many times in receiving a phal, particularly the thin leaved types, the leaf will want to stay in the position it had during shipping from being wrapped and packaged.

I also use masking tape if I receive a plant with a partially torn leaf to make sure it keeps as many leaves as possible, as long as possible.

Brooke

[neworchidlover]

Thanks guys,

I guess I should have rephrahsed my question. Is there any danger to the plant if the new leaf STOPS growing?

The new leaf on the right is only 2 inches long (all the other leaves are over 10). And the other leaf to the left is growing rapidly.

In the back of the right leaf (the deformed one) there looks to be these "scars" (right where the "square" area is) where the leaf tried to form an oval shape.

I'm pretty sure the deformed leaf has stopped growing...What does that mean for the plant? Will she not do well if one of her new leaves doesn't grow? I took some pictures with my camera and will try and upload them to show the scars

[articuno75]

No danger at all, just taking a break from growth that's all.

[patticake]

The plant can grow leaves of all different sizes, etc., due to many changes around it. Don't worry- the plant will still live! A short or miss-shepen leaf will not affect the plants health at all-(unless it's caused by insect or disease) Enjoy your plant and it's little quirks!

[neworchidlover]

OK! Well Jenny I know that you said it shouldn't be a problem, unless there was damage to the leaf. And the baby leaf itself is well kind of damaged, she just won't grow!!

On a side note when putting hydrogen peroxide to help heal root rot, how much hydrogen peroxide should you put? And when trimming the dead roots is there anything special I should do?

I've included some pictures!! The left leaf is the new leaf and the right leaf is the sad one! You can see on the pictures with the back of the leaves showing, how she kind of has a scar where the leaf kept trying to grow and form an oval shape on both sides.

Will the plant just grow a new leaf above the baby one that won't grow? Or will she not grow anymore leaves on the right side?

[kid a]

If you had problems with it before the leaves started growing it could just be because of that. I have a phal that has 3 large leaves, I lost a bunch below it from rot, and when it started growing new leaves the first one was about an inch, then another started growing it about 2 inches now. Sometimes they get set back a bit and start out growing small leaves again and they will gradually get bigger with each new leaf.

[articuno75]

Originally Posted by neworchidlover

OK! Well Jenny I know that you said it shouldn't be a problem, unless there was damage to the leaf. And the baby leaf itself is well kind of damaged, she just won't grow!!

On a side note when putting hydrogen peroxide to help heal root rot, how much hydrogen peroxide should you put? And when trimming the dead roots is there anything special I should do?

I've included some pictures!! The left leaf is the new leaf and the right leaf is the sad one! You can see on the pictures with the back of the leaves showing, how she kind of has a scar where the leaf kept trying to grow and form an oval shape on both sides.

Will the plant just grow a new leaf above the baby one that won't grow? Or will she not grow anymore leaves on the right side?

What I said in the e-mail response was that the growth can correct itself without a problem when turned and adjusted to the light. The only way that this might be a problem is if the new leaf growth was extremely deformed to the point that self correcting would be impossible and other measures would be necessary.

To me the leaf looks fine and should pick up and continue to grow from where it left off.

On a side note when putting hydrogen peroxide to help heal root rot, how much hydrogen peroxide should you put? And when trimming the dead roots is there anything special I should do?

Usually I will pour the Peroxide over the medium a couple of times to get the roots and medium nice and wet with the stuff and until the fizzing settles. When you trim for the dead, be sure to sterilize your tools.

[neworchidlover]

The only problem with adjusting her to the light is that the left leaf needs light on its left side. And the right leaf needs light on the right side. So either way it will be a compromise and one leaf will continue to grow in the wrong direction. Is there a solution to this?

But I guess my main question is what if that leaf has in fact been deformed to the point where it has totally stopped growing. The only reason why I don't think the leaf will grow is because of the scars on the back of the plant, and how it will continue to grow if it is not the correct shape for growing.

Maybe there is a chance the leaf will continue to grow....But what if the right leaf has totally in fact stopped growing? Then what for the plant?

Will she grow another leaf on top of the baby one on the right side, or will she no longer grow any leaves on the right side?

[Vivienne]

I think the general thought is that your plant will be fine and continue to grow. I have a couple of phals that have done this before and they are all fine and growing fine.
Patience!

[Brooke]

If your "good" leaf continues to grow, the future leaves will still be from both sides. If your "bad" leaf stops growing, it will not hurt the plant as long as you get future leaves, the bad leaf will just be smaller and hidden.

Even if the small leaf is not growing, it will still feed the roots, do not remove it. Eventually the small leaf will be covered up and again, eventually, it will fall off.

Brooke

[Vivienne]

My camera is back to working order!

Here are two of my Phals that grew 'deformed' (smaller) leaves but have continued to thrive.

This one is my 'ugly' Phal that has been growing oddly for years.



This one, my Phal. stuartiana, some may remember. I thought it had crown rot but it is making a come back. The mini leaf is hard to see (in the white circle) but you can see how well the newest leaves have come in.

[neworchidlover]

Hello Vivienne!! Thank you for all of the pictures of your phal with small leaves. I would say the only difference between that one and mine is that yours are growing in the right direction, where mine has turned a 90 degree angle to the left side. So looking down at the top there almost doesn't look like there is space for a new leaf to pop up and start growing, because the right (bad) leaf at this point wraps totally around the left(good) lead. If you look at the pictures I posted above you can kind of see what I mean.

I used the superthrive and went on vacation and came back and the left (good) leaf grew enormously! But it grow so quickly that its starting to flop forwards. I put a little stick beside the leaf that it can rest on.

But generally speaking the new base of the phal is leaning way way forward and is a light light green which is newly formed so its not that sturdy. But the leaf has gotten quite big. I think the other reason why the plant is leaning forward is because of the bad cut she had, because the back has been left OK but the front was where the cut was.

Is there anything else I should do to help support the plant and the flopping forward (good) leaf so that the base can strengthen and support itself better in the future? And just as an update, the right (bad) leaf still hasn't grown

[Rocinante]

Dorothy, I've seen a LOT worse than yours.

[dr_frnkblck]

Dorothy-
I think the only thing that can answer your question about how it will grow is time. Even if someone had a similar experience I don't think there is any way to say your plant would do the same thing.
I can name numerous examples of my plants not growing as they "should". I have a Phal with an almost vertical leaf and and my sharry baby has a spike that has almost a perfect circle in it. It does a loopty-loop at the base of it due to it getting stuck in the fold of a leaf.

Putting in a stake for the floppy leaf to rest on is a fine solution to that problem.

Personally, I think your plant will grow fineand will continue to grow leaves on both sides. This is just speculation, mind you, as I have nothing to base this opinion on besides watching my own plants grow.

[neworchidlover]

Thanks John!! I'm just reallly sensitive to how she is doing.

So thanks everyone for the encouragement! I mean gosh, she has been through SO much, that it would be terrible for her to not do well!

Jenny sent prayers to the orchid gods a bit ago when she had the terrible cut and almost fell in half.

I guess the comment that worries me is that the biggest problem is if the leaf is totally deformed beyond the point of self-correcting which I think it is....that that might be a big problem.

I'll try and post a new picture maybe in a month or so, to give an update on the growth.

In the meantime thanks everyone for your support! You guys are great!! And I'm so glad that I found this forum!

[articuno75]

: :

I will send more prayers to the orchid gods and maybe the leaf will correct.

[Rocinante]

Oh, mighty orchid gods we beseech thee! Let this orchid grow! ...

[neworchidlover]

Oh, thank you everyone!!! I hope the positive energy does her well!!

Jenny I trimmed the parts of the roots that seemed dead about a week ago, after putting some hydrogen peroxide on them. I bought a new pair of scissors and put them in some very hot water.

The thing is that I trimmed only the dead parts of the roots. But the parts above that (that used to be green), have turned like blackish or gray. Do you think this is as a result of the remaining root being unhappy a part of it is gone/cut off? Or that there is still root rot and I should pour more hydrogen peroxide over the area?

[neworchidlover]

Hello!

So well it's been about a month now...and the left leaf has started to grow nicely. Janet A, I totally used your advice about what happens when the leaf grows too fast (which the left leaf did) and i rotated it so that it would need to turn up to the sun. So the left leaf is up growing straight now and is not flopping anymore!

Except the root rot has gotten pretty bad. Ah I should have taken Jenny and everyone else's advice to do the re-pot a long time ago. I am trying to follow Brookyn’s advice about the repot (went back to the old post when I cut her almost in half).

I'm scared to do it myself....here are some questions, yikes!

-Should I use sphag or fir bark? The only sphag I could get by tomorrow would be likely a lower quality. Versus the New Zealand one I was recommended. That will take at least three days to get and she really needs to be watered until then. Unless I could water her now and then do the repot a little later. Though also the roots don’t look very good either and really I think need to be trimmed soon. I’m scared to change the medium with the fir bark, but I think the root rot progressed because I maybe drenched her with too much water during waterings.

-I bought packing peanuts for the bottom. Should I wipe them with alcohol to sterilize them?

-For sterilizing the scissors in between root trimmings I bought rubbing alcohol (Isopropyl 91%?). Is this OK? Should I add bleach to the mixture as others recommend, and if so how much?

-I bought Phyton 27 for the root rot and was recommended 2 teaspoons per gallon. But I also was told to use the superthrive for the repot. Can I put the Phyton 27 in the gallon of water I have that already has the superthrive? Or do I have to put it in a separate gallon of water? And if a separate gallon, can I water her with both, or do I have to pick one?

Either way she certainly needs water, it’s been almost two weeks! But I was traveling and now back and have been reluctant to water her before her repot. I think it might be too much watering, if I water her now and then put her in wet sphag a few days later.

Let me know what everyone thinks the best steps should be for all of this root trimming, repotting, phyton 27ing, yikes! So many steps!

The last, and most important question, does it look like there is root rot heading towards the top base of the plant (I think this is called the crown?). It's the first two pictures on the list...

Sorry to ask so many questions, but taking care of orchids is so complicated and yikes don't want to miss a step! Because I would like her to get healthy from her root rot and stay well! And nip this root rot in it's bottom!! . I’ve put some pictures so everyone can see how she’s doing!

[brookn]

Your roots are okay. Take the plant and soak those roots with the medium for about 20 min in some water and Superthrive. Trim any black mushy roots, brown ones are okay if they are firm and not dried out. If you have some sphag, pot it into it until the good stuff arrives, then repot it into it.

It actually looks like it has been kept a little too dry, but I would need to see the middle of the root ball after it has been soaked. There does not appear to be root rot so much as brown dried roots, and it's a bit bound up by the old sphag. I am getting ready to do a repot on a rescue Phal. would it be helpful if I took some pics of the process?

[fred]

yes Dr Brookn please do

[neworchidlover]

Hi Brookyn,

Sure!! Sure more pics the better! Well the roots look really dry because I haven't watered it in a while since it was super, super wet. And also before I left on my trip I just poured cinnamon everywhere. Lol, whenever I see anything I'm not sure about...put some cinnamon on it!

Can I put the Phyton 27 in the same gallon of water that the Superthrive is already in?

And is the rubbing alcohol I bought OK (Isopropyl 91%?) to sterelize the scissors?

Sounds good I will buy the good stuff and repot again! And will post a pic of the "middle of the root ball". I'll look at your resuce Phal repot pics too and hopefully at the end I will be a confident repoter! Thanks again I am so happy I bought my orchid and found this forum!

[brookn]

I've got the plant soaking now Fred!

[brookn]

Hi, sorry I missed your post. I will finish the repot here in a few min. the plant is soaking, it was really pot bound. Look for a new thread, as I am just going to post it as a tutorial thread. I wish I could help you on the Physan/Phyton whatever it is, but I don't use it, and don't even own any. I just rely on peroxide, cinnamon, and occasionally Bayer 3 n 1.

[brookn]

Looks like piccies in the morning, it seems that Photobucket is having some sort of a glitch. Sorry!

[solay]

I am patiently waiting for the result of the operation Dr. Brookn.

[fred]

yeah me to waiting waiting waiting lol

neworchidlover I think that the rubbing alcohol to sterilize the scissors should be ok
I also find Bleach is good as well.
I have a glass coffee jar with bleach and alcohol in it and while cutting and so forth I dip the scissors into the glass jar.

[neworchidlover]

Dr. Brookn has posted the results of her operation!! On the new thread repottiing a pha!

Fred (or Dr. Fred), would you know the ratio of bleach to alcohol you use? And should I do that too the pot as well?

Ok, well just a few more things to research and then I'm off for my own operation!

[janet_a]

what brookn said. and after i clean off the old sphag, and pull off any ooky roots (if it comes off with a slight tug, it's ooky), i usually soak the entire rootball in a bowl of hydrogern peroxide for fifteen mins or so.

if the roots are otherwise healthy, i'll just spray the roots down with a mild bleach and water solution after i clean the medium off (i want to say something like a teaspoon per 16 oz of water--just enough so you can smell it's bleach, but not enough to knock you over), as well as spraying down the pot, and then repot it.

these plants are pretty tough; don't stress yourself over repotting. just throw it in new medium and see how it does. the best way to learn about these things is to just do it; the more you do, the more you'll get a feel for what's right and what's wrong. just don't put it into too big a pot--pot should fit the rootball. that may mean it goes back in the same pot, or maybe even into a smaller one.

[brookn]

I edited the post I made earlier a bit, I was pressed for time when I did it (on my way to work). Mine went into a 6" pot cause it's what I had. It really would have been better fitting into a 5", but I didn't have it. It was not going back into the pot it was in after I released that mass of roots lol. Janet's right, I always feel like I have been to a plant massacre after repotting. I just dig in, and start cleaning it up. It gets easier as time goes by lol. I used to try to be so careful, but Phals., they are tough.

[janet_a]

some of them, you look at 'em funny or diparage their ancestry, they fall over dead. others you can't kill with an axe.