Phrag kovachii

[hera]

Has anyone grown a Phrag kovachii or one of the few hybrids. I am facinated with this new Phrag and I would like to know how it does in the private collection before I dive in with the cost of one. I have heard that they can be difficult. I would love to see pics if anyone has any. Thanks.

[JLu]

I have a Phrag. Fritz Schomburg (kovachii x besseae). I purchased it 10 months ago as a very small seedling and it has grown, but it isn't setting any records. Given that my Phrags grow like weeds, I would rate this one a slow to very slow grower under conditions that the others seem to like. They are in a GH in relatively high light (3000Fc at max time of day), get constant moisture (I just reduced the moisture for this one thinking I'm doing something wrong), and never go below 60 degrees F. Daytime temps reach up to 85 degrees depending on external weather conditions. Humidity is maintained from 40 to 90 %RH.

[tom499]

Phragmipedium kovachii.com [Main Page]

This sites information is pretty solid from comparisons to other sources and gives a quick round tour of the plant.

They are tricky buggers to grow when young, ever trickier with seedlings.

Probably the most important factor is water, which should RO or very good quality, especially with seedlings, or else death is very much a possibility.

I want one, very much so, but I shall be waiting for FS plants, and when they are at a sensible price, which may be a year or two.

Seedlings of both hybrids and species are expensive still i believe. I do not know of your grow area/greenhouse, but you will need a similar set up to JLu to ensure good growth, and a very controlled media content too.

[JLu]

tom499, I do use rainwater. Forgot to mention that. I think I'm close doing things as recommended. The seedling was expensive ($75) considering it's size. It appears to be growing and looks healthy, but it's a slow dude.

[nenella]

Interesting site Tom, thanks for the link ; I'm curious
has anyone used egg shell In their mix?
I have put a "dressing" of crushed oyster shells on all of my paphs & phrags and they seem happy with no problems...
(I am lucky to live on the atlantic coast & therefore easy to pick up oyster shell on the beaches) and egg shell sounds even easier to get!

[hera]

Thanks for the input!

[janet_a]

i wonder how much of the growth slowness is from the besseae side? i have a jason fischer (which is half besseae, yes?) that is growing just GLACIALLY. in s/h no less.

(actually now i think about it, i think JF is 3/4 besseae.)

[arleneg]

Hera,

I have two types of kovachii hybrids -- wallisii x kovachii and kovachii x longifolium.

wallisii x kovachii: I bought as compot seedlings and have repotted them in their own s/h pots. They did fine for the first few months. Now, the seedling are struggling and not doing well. I'm trying to figure out what's going on.

kovachii x longifolium: I bought it as a large seedling, possibly closer to mature size. this one is doing better than the ones above.

I'll try taking some pics (since I need to ask a Phrag expert about the small seedlings) and post on this forum.

[JLu]

There are general recommendations for using some limestone or other calcium sources in some (not all) paphs. If I remember correctly, Antec Labs makes that recommendation regarding some paph species. It might also apply to Phrag kovachii, but not to most phrags. Since eggshells and oyster shells are virtually insoluble, it is not likely that they contribute much, if any, calcium to the plant or basic pH to the water. The best recommendation that I have seen for adding calcium in small doses is dolomitic lime which is calcium magnesium carbonate. It is slightly soluble.

It might legitimately be asked why not just add the calcium with fertilizer or by using "hard" water (tap water)? That's a good question!! The "hard" water in particular is just skipping the solution step of dissolving dolomitic lime in situ or achieving the same result as oyster shells or egg shells are intended to achieve (though I doubt they actually achieve the intended result due to insolubility).

This advice to add calcium appears totally contrary to the seemingly good advice that these plants (phrags in general) need extremely pure water. That means rain or RO with an acid pH and little or no dissolved solids. Just because plants grow on a substrate that is largely limestone rock does not mean that they grow in water which contains a lot of hard water ions (mainly calcium and magnesium). Since this limestone is very insoluble, it does not immediately enter into fresh rainwater which is the water source for most phrags. Over the longer term in a riverine environment some (darn little) limestone is dissolved resulting in hard water in water systems that contain 0-400 ppm, typically, total dissolved solids consisting of mostly calcium and magnesium. This occurs well after the water was in the vicinity of phrags.

It's pretty doubtful that any phrags need or thrive in water with high calcium levels. The recommendation for pure water seems the dominate and most realistic one. Thus egg shells and oyster shells probably do no harm since they will not dissolve anyway, adding calcium or using hard water would seem wrong.

Since Antec recommends calcium addition for a few paph species and they have done a lot of analytical work, I have started adding dolomitic lime to those recommended species. At this point I have no results to report.

[BillC]

Hera, I posted a pic. some long time ago of the orchid and the thread became very interesting. I don't know if the link will work, but will try it first. Yes, it seems to be ok.

Bill

Super Orchid

[hera]

Thanks Bill,
I don't know which is more impressive, the size or the color. I am watching with great interest for anything new with kovachii. If vigorous hybrids can be achieved the whole world of Phragmipediums will change dramatically. Its like being in on cutting edge technology.

[patticake]

hera. Piping Rock Orchids in Galway NY is one of 3 growers in the world that has been doing extensive hybridization with kovachii. I visited his greenhouse last March. I purchased a Phrag. Suzanne Decker (kovachii 'Laura' x Cape Sunset) I purchased it as a seedling. It's doing well... some new growth, and it's a nice healthy plant, but it is slow. I don't care!! I can't wait for it to bloom. Check out Glen's site- It's very informative!!! Welcome to Piping Rock Orchids

[hera]

That's a good site for hybrids. How lucky you were to visit the greenhouse!

[articuno75]

Where can you get dolomitic lime? I've been looking for the stuff and can't get it anywhere. Years ago our water company used to add lime or sodalite to the water supply to bring the Ph level down.

Would a stone quarry have it?

[fred]

Jenny is that the same as dolomite lime ?
If it is I got mine from a good garden nursery

[Tobi]

Hera.
The site that Patticake suggested (Piping Rock) is the best place to get information
on kovachii species and hybrids. Glen Decker, the owner has done extensive studies
on these and has quite a collection of both. He is a wonderful person to chat with
and I'm sure he can help you with any questions about culture and care for them.
I just visited him last month and he has quite a few species that are getting close
to blooming size.

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

Well I have used dolomitic limestone to try to counter balance the acidity of the peat moss I use, and I don't like it. It caused my mix to swing very basic (~8). Using oyster shell now for about a year and the PH is up to about 6.5 from 3.5 to 4.0. A much better result. I'm sure that the oyster shell does dissolve in the acidity being produced by the peat. If oyster shell results in a higher PH, you know there is a chemical reaction taking place, and the amount of calcium released is going to depend on how fast the peat produces the acid ions. I received an email from Piping Rock orchids where I believe there was mention of using oyster shell with kovachii, but can't find that email right now.

[patticake]

Originally Posted by hera

That's a good site for hybrids. How lucky you were to visit the greenhouse!

There are a few good reasons for living in the northeast! Piping Rock is only about 45 mins. away from us!

On Piping Rock's website, if you click on the name Phrag. kovachii under the photo of it, You will be brought to the page with some of the history, etc.- The photos are cool, when you click on the different names to the left on the history page! The Pic. of glen holding a kovachii is great! It really gives perspective to the size of these plants!
Welcome to Piping Rock Orchids They hope to have clones of the species ready soon.

[BillC]

Hera, I wonder if you and some of the more recent members would be interested in the rest of the story ref P.kovachii? I will enter it as a link and members can choose to read it.

Bill

Demise of the Phrag. kovschii in habitat

[JLu]

Jenny, dolomite lime is available at any big box store or nursery. It is literally cheaper than dirt. It will not reduce pH. It will raise it. I do not believe it should be used in any normal orchid growing situation. I'm only trying it on paphs that Antec has data on. Some of these were growing poorly for me and it was get better or get out....so I'm trying their suggestion and if they die it's no big deal. That's where they were headed anyway. Let me be very clear...I'm not suggesting that anyone use dolomitic lime unless they have a specific reason...I only brought it up because of the recommendation that people use egg shells or sea shells. Arbitrary alteration of your plant chemistry is not a good idea.

Cynthia, there is no question whatsoever that the more acidic the water the more sea shells or egg shells are likely to dissolve at least slightly. If you make it acidic enough you can completely dissolve them. I guess I didn't think I needed to write a general chemistry textbook. Yes,Cynthia is correct, shells will dissolve in very acidic solution. They won't dissolve essentially at all in normally encountered water. I think you must admit that darn few people have water in the 3.5-4 pH range. If as you describe, the water is first acidified with something like peat, then you could at least partially raise that pH with anything that is basic...sea shells for example. I guess I'm a little confused why anyone would first deliberately lower the pH and then raise it again, but I guess you have your reasons. It's certainly elementary chemistry that pH can be raised or lowered at will ad infinitum by adding hydrogen or hydroxide ion.No debate there. I was trying to keep this within the confines of typical situations that the orchid grower here would encounter. If your intent was to add calcium to your water there are certainly easier ways to do it. You could use hard water in the first place or go buy some acid and pour it over sea shells.

Let's not overlook the obvious here. Sea shells do not dissolve to any appreciable extent even after years of exposure to the water after the animal dies. Eggs don't dissolve when exposed to rain, urine, or anything else they are exposed to in nature. It's just common sense, those chickens that laid eggs that dissolved are not with us any longer and neither are those snails with soluble shells.