Another Fertilizer Question

[sandra]

I think I hate fertilizers solely because of the confusion I feel when yet, another person tells me the right and wrong and the do's and the don't's.

I'd really appreciate some more confusion on the topic by getting some opinions from those who have very strong feelings one way or the other about fertilizing, who have already gotten this sorted out and can pass along experienced advice.....please.

Yesterday, I was at my orchid supply shop about to buy my typical 20-20-20 when......one of the sales clerks told me, "Don't use that." He said that while the plants are growing and putting out new leads, to always use a high vegetative fert and once they're mature, to stop using that and switch to a high blooming fertilizer, that a continuous feed of one and not the other, will produce either, less flowering or less growth...depending on which is being mostly used. What about some Dendrobiums (for instance) that have a once-a-year blooming cycle, I asked. He told me that it could very well be expected to bloom more than once a year if I fertilize correctly. And what if you don't know exactly when a plant's blooming cycle is? Which kind of fert. would you use then? He was a bit stumped by that question. I think he was regretful that he offered his advice to me, by the time I left. I can't help it if I have questions.

ADVICE PLEASE!!!!!

[Hummer344]

For two months in mid spring I use a higher nitrogen fert to help the plants set out more new growth & I fert every two weeks.The rest of the year I use a balanced fert & fert every three weeks during the summer/fall period. Maby once a month in the winter or when ever I remember. My collection is a mish-mash of this & that. Some bloom in the winter, some in the spring etc. I can't be bothered remembering what plants needs bloom stuff, what plants need growth stuff etc. I may not get more bloom than the next person but I love what I get & it works for me.

[kmarch]

I'm not suprised you're confused by fertilizers Sandra there are as many opinions about how and when they should be used as they are brands and different types of fertilizers. It's probably the most chaotic aspect of orchid growing.

The situation isn't helped by my observation that nearly everyone who gives advice states it as if its a mater of fact and not relative depending on multiple factors. The person at your orchid supply shop that advised you did just that. And in addition to that he/she confused the matter more by oversimplifying. Given the way they responded when you pressed them with your questions suggests to me that you probably know more orchids and how to fertilize then they do.

Sometime ago you started another thread with fertilizer questions in which I spelled out the different approaches to fertilizing. Consider reviewing that thread and the members' responses: Fertilizing - How, What, & When

Since you want strong opinions on the matter, I'll offer mine, in 3 easy steps:
1) Know what fertilizer does. Know what high nitrogen fert does to a plant, what high phosphorus, and high potash does.
2) Know the cycles of the orchids you're growing.
3) Experiment, experiment, experiment. Pick an approach and stick with it for at least one full growing and blooming cycle or one full year. One can't tell anythign by trying a fertilizing method for only a month or 2. One has to stick with it for a whole cycle and observe (possibly even take notes) the plant for a full cycle. I mention "or a full year" because many orchids cycles take a full year to run their course.

Here's an example: Let's say we have a big standard Cattleya that flowers once a year that we want to fertilize. We know that high nitrogen promotes/supports vegetative growth and that high phosphorus promotes/supports flowering. We know that a Catleya has a distinct vegetative growing period followed by a flowering period then a short rest. So for one full growth period we apply a high nitrogen fertilizer, then once the new growth nears maturity, perhaps when the leaf opens and we see the sheath inside, we switch to high phosphorus fertilizer to promote flowering. Then after flowering finishes, we stop fertilizing until we see new growth (if the plant isn't growing it doesn't need much nitrogen). We follow this regimine for a full year according to the plant's cycles and see if it grows and flowers better with this fertiilizing regemine.

Or here's another example: Let's say we have 5 or 6 Paphiopedilum that seems to grow at about the same rate all year round, flowering at different times whenever a new growth matures. I can't be bothered havign each plant on a different fertilizing schedule so I decide not to fertilize at all, afterall there's a lot fo organic material in the potting mix anyway. I do this for 6 months to a year and they seem to do ok but, after that, I wonder if they might do better with a little more help so I decide to try worm tea. I do this for 6 months to a year and they seem to do a little better. I notice some of the plants that have grown new leaves in thet time have bigger leaves, so I wonder if they might do better with a little more help. Since they are all at different stages of growing and flowering I dont' want ot give a high nitrogen or a strong bloom booster so I decide to give a balanced (20-20-20) weakly fertilizer and I try this for 6 months to a year.

I have used the following methods on my plants:
1) not fertilizing at all - especially with the slippers - I noticed no significant difference between fertilizing and not fertilizing them. I've not fertilized for about 5 years now.
2) balanced weakly weekly on everything - didn't seem much different than not fertilizing. I did this for the first couple years of
3) on Cattleyas, Coelogyne, Ondicium Alliance plants I tried the strong nitrogen when in growth and a strong bloom booster after growth matured - I did this for about 2 years and always got good growth and flowers but it did not seem significantly better than weakly-weekly or no fert.

I believe Hummer has actually made the most important point regarding fertilizing when he said: "I love what I get & it works for me." That's really ultimately the only thing we want isnt' it?

Sandra, with only a couple of small exceptions (somethign crazy like givign high nitrigen to a nobile type dendrobium in the winter when it is resting - which as we know will cause it to keiki like mad and not flower), I really dont' think one can make mistakes when fertilizing. With a little knowledge, a little common sense, and a good helping of patience I think most of us can find ourselves in Hummer's place.

"I love what I get & it works for me."

[NancyG]

Sandra,

I have been confused by the fertilizer question also. Especially when every grower seems to have different advice.

I have added bloom booster to my regular watering cycle along with worm tea. I used worm tea solely for a year. It started off gang busters but then the plants seemed to get use to it. Is that possible. They had great roots and leaves but no blooms. So I added the bloom booster and put my catts in a sunnier location. That might have did it as much as the bloom booster. I didn't realize how the canopy in my backyard filled in and the light was not as filtered as before but more shade than light.

So I think what I am saying is that fertilizing helps but the light, water, air circulation and the growing medium has just as much influence on the plants blooms as just giving it more fertilizer.

Hummer has good advice.

NancyG

[sandra]

I think I'll approach this by noting that if the progress expected isn't happening, is when I'll take a more careful look and approach to the different fertilizers. After the latest advice from the salesclerk, I wondered if I was doing harm with the 20-20-20 and so long as I'm not, I'll continue using it until I get a better feel for what a particular plant may need or not need, at all. I just don't want to go into overkill or neglect. I also have 13-13-13 Nutricote (pellets) in all the pots.

No fert on Nobile Dends after August, of course and bloom booster on my Phals come Autumn; other than this, I'll stay the course.

This advice is beyond what I expected. Thank you so very much. For the first time I'm feeling a bit more comfortable about all of this. I'm saving this thread!

[jerrymeola]

I agree with kmarch to understand what the chemicals do.

Nitrogen is necessary for growth.

High phosphorus I think is useless. It will promote blooms in a medium that is deficient in phosphorus. It will also kill beneficial microbes in the medium. This is not too important in soil where new microbes can develop but I feel it is detrimental to orchids. Phosphorus also takes as much as 5 years to break down after application depending on the source of the Phosphorus.

I use only balanced fertilizers. It also makes it more consistent to not try to change depending the the month, when really you would have to change on the growing pattern that can be off months for year to year. Many fall orchids did not bloom this year until late winter.

NancyG noticed the immediate spurt with the use of Worm Tea and its less obvious effect afterward. The medium was without beneficial microbes at the first application and it was like turning on the food bucket. The plant now had the microbes necessary to use the food in the medium. Plants can not absorb fertilizers, they require beneficial microbes to convert the fertilizer into a form the plant can absorb. After the first big jump in growth the plant can absorb the nutrient at a more relaxed rate and the growth is not as noticeable but it is still significant over time.

[PhalPal]

I went to a lecture at my local club recently (Bill Thoms from Florida) and he spoke some about fertilizers. His advice was simple: any fertilizer will work for you if you USE it versus just buying it and leaving it on the shelf. (guilty!!!) He grows huge specimen plants and uses a balanced fertilizer all year. It is his own concoction but basically MSU.

Normans Orchids is a huge grower of Phals and they use balanced all year as well. They also have their own formula like MSU and change light and temperature to induce spikes. This is what I use on all my orchids and I honestly can't say I have seen a change one way or the other.

I'm keeping it simple - Normans formula once a week and Osmocote for my Cymbidiums.

[PhalPal]

Kevin I just went back and read your post and it's great advice. I don't think I have EVER heard a professional grower/shower of orchids speak of switching this and that through the season. They all seem to just go for balanced, but then they grow in greenhouses and have control over the other factors that induce growth and flowering.

Question??? For those of us who live in warm areas, could changing fertilizer types according to the season be more important for us to induce spikes and/or growth?

[JLu]

I'm pretty much in the Kevin/PhalPal camp. This is a subject that will get more answers than a physics test in a kindergarten. What that tells me is nearly everything works about the same.

The only things that do seem true if you measure by the number of proponents are (1) too much nitrogen might lead to less bloom and tender foliage that is more susceptible to disease (many horticulturalists believe that), (2) too much phosphate is a waste of money and if it does anything at all, it's bad not good.

There are some facts that seem to be accepted by most plant scientists. Plants need carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen that they get from the air. Calcium, magnesium, nitrogen, phosphorus,potassium, and sulfur are required at higher levels than other nutrients and are called macronutrients.

Chlorine,copper,iron,manganese,molybdenum and zinc are needed in small quantities and are called micronutrients. In some cases? sodium and silicon might be beneficial. Just supplying these is not sufficient. In order for the plant to utilize them they need to be supplied at 5.5-6.5 pH.

Not all fertilizers are complete. They only contain the macronutrients. It is best to use a complete formula. If you use pure water be certain your fertilizer has calcium and magnesium.

I use MSU and it works great, but I suspect any balanced, complete formula is perfectly acceptable.

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by sandra

I think I'll approach this by noting that if the progress expected isn't happening, is when I'll take a more careful look and approach to the different fertilizers.

Sounds like a perfectly sensible approach to me.

Originally Posted by sandra

After the latest advice from the salesclerk, I wondered if I was doing harm with the 20-20-20

For the benefit of other members reading this thread, I think little real harm would ever come to an orchid from fertilizing except maybe if someone is using an extremely high concentration and getting leaf or root burn.

Originally Posted by sandra

I just don't want to go into overkill or neglect.

This reminded me of something I was going to add before but forgot: We aren't necessarily harming or starving our orchids if we do not fertilize. Unless we're growing in an inorganic medium and using only distilled water, some nutrients and minerals will get to the plant somehow and most of the mixes we use have bark, sphag, or other organic material. One shouldn't feel like they're neglecting their orchids if they dont' fertilize.

[PhalPal]

Great thread and good information - Thanks everyone!

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by PhalPal

Question??? For those of us who live in warm areas, could changing fertilizer types according to the season be more important for us to induce spikes and/or growth?

In my opinion, changing fertilizer (for example form a high nitrogen to a bloom boost) can not replace the seasonal changes (light, cooler nights, etc) that some orchids need to initiate flowering. The cultural conditions are paramount in my view and fertilizers can be used to enhance or "magnify" if you will, the plants performance through these different cycles.

Take for example, Cymbidiums. They need a cool autumn/winter in order to initiate their flowering cycle. Several members have commented that they don't get this cooling off in Florida making it difficult to grow and nearly impossible to flower cymbids there. You could give a cymbid in Florida all the bloom boost your checkbook could manage and still not get results because the conditions required ot initiate the bloom cycle are not there. Make sense?

[PhalPal]

Makes perfect sense Kevin. I figured as much, but living in a warm weather area, the 'norm' rarely applies to us. I am finding that this is why orchid books don't do me much good. The author will give a solution to what most people encounter climate wise and will rarely address California and Florida. A few books have been published recently written just for California gardeners and orchid growers, Yippee!!!

Your last statement is the reason why I don't do the fertilizer dance; it's light and temp that makes the real difference!