Masdevallia Meltdown

[kmarch]

Today I was watering my orchids and I picked up my 3 masdevallias and leaves started dropping off. When the last leaf fell, my Masd. triangularis had gone from about 20 leaves to 9. My Masd Partizan cross had gone from about 25 leaves to 12. Thankfully, my Mast. Kara's Delight cross came though largely unscathed, losing only one leaf; it still has 31 leaves.

This dramatic downturn has happened just within the last week or so. Moisture and humidity have been good, lots of air circulation. The only cultural concern I have had recently was the hot flash we had last week and earlier this week.

This is about the time of year I'd repot my massies so this seemed like a good time to see what was going on. The Kara's delight was fine, lots of crisp white roots. I potted it up a size. When I unpotted the triangularis it fell into 4 pieces, one with neither roots nor leaves, only dead stumps, one wit 2 nearly dead leaves and no roots, and finally 2 pieces with a few leaves and a few new roots. This got potted down into a 50mm pot. The Partizan hybrid also fell apart when unpotted, into 5 pieces, the best piece was about half the plant with about half of its roots ok, half gone; 2 other small pieces each with a few leaves and a few roots; one piece with only a couple of leaves and no roots; and finally one piece with no roots or leaves, all dead.

They're all in fresh sphagnum (fresh but not live).

This happened to me when I was growing them in Michigan too. Nearly every one of my massies (there I had about a dozen of them) suddenly started dropping leaves and in the space of about 2 weeks or so were completely gone.

Anyone with any thoughts as to what is going on with this?

[jerrymeola]

I think beginners should note that experienced growers like kmarch lose orchids too. It is just more fun to talk about our successes. (Anyone need a 1000 frozen orchids from January?)

I see two possible reasons. The temperature is certainly a factor but may not be all. Possibly the factor that pushed them over the edge.

Have you ever checked to see if the nice growing clump was really one plant or several. When several are planted together they look so much better, but they compete for food and water. The weakest die, that is evolution. One small dead section can rot and spread. I think this is one reason commercial growers divide their large plants so often (space finances etc are also reasons).

Unfortunately even though this has happened to me with other hybrids, I am no closer to the truth than you.

I am throwing away a number of Cattleya with rooting roots. These were potted 18 months ago and I notice in that time they have never had a single new root. Without new growth it seems to me plants just die. It is the new roots that take in most of the water and lack of new roots allows the older roots to stay too wet even if "not over-watered".

So temperature, death of a small section spreading, lack of new roots resulting in excess water in a section of the pot and maybe 20 other factors (aerial bacteria, fungus?) we can not guess all adding a little to the problem. It is probably a combination of many things and one factor like the heat to give it the last kiss of death.

You are not nice to scare me when I have just taken my first shipment of Mastavallia.

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by jerrymeola

Have you ever checked to see if the nice growing clump was really one plant or several.

I'm about 90% sure the healthy plant is all one plant. I have now repotted it twice, each time untangling strands of sphag from the roots and removing it from around the base of the plant. It's always helt tightly together, even this time the plant itself felt solid.

Originally Posted by jerrymeola

When several are planted together they look so much better, but they compete for food and water. The weakest die, that is evolution. One small dead section can rot and spread.

I wonder if perhaps I should pot each little piece separately?

Originally Posted by jerrymeola

So temperature, death of a small section spreading, lack of new roots resulting in excess water in a section of the pot and maybe 20 other factors (aerial bacteria, fungus?) we can not guess all adding a little to the problem. It is probably a combination of many things and one factor like the heat to give it the last kiss of death.

I think you're probably right, that it was a little of this that exacerbates a little of that, etc., etc. and surprise....sudden death. There was a bit of mold in the triangularis, on the plant itself not in the mix.

Well the pieces are mostly cleaned up now. We'll see what happens. I wonder if I should seperate all the pieces?

Originally Posted by jerrymeola

You are not nice to scare me when I have just taken my first shipment of Mastavallia.

Well I'm nice most of the time, pretty much, mostly...but I pause to wax eloquent and add that my fate is not necessarily yours.

[fred]

good information Jerry

I had a similar situation with the heat factor here in Tassie.
I started to lose some leaf,s as well..
I moved my masdevallias to a heaver shaded part of my orchid house that also has a better air flow as well.

[Vivienne]

Kevin - I had the same thing happen last year with the 3 Massies that I had. They looked fine... until you picked them up. I'm hoping for better results this time now that I have my special setup for Pleuros. So far so good. My two new Massies are in bud. And I plan on ordering another from Jerry.

[sandra]

I probably don't have anything significant to add here except that my 1 masdi lost several leaves until I potted it in sphag. It's now grown many more leaves than originally lost. The pot sits in a larger pot which too, is filled with sphag and in a much shadier spot as well. I'm going to have to remember that when the heat starts getting turned up here, to have the fan pointed in its direction.

That's my 2 cents...

[mehitabel]

Interesting point about the need for fresh new roots, Jerry. Thanks.

[jerrymeola]

Sandra
My first impression was that I would have to increase the water on the Masdavallia. Actually all plants that I consider miniatures (under 6 inches) seem to have leaves dry out too fast. The switch to sphag increases the water at the roots.

mehitabel
I still have the hobbyist attitude of not throwing away a plant that 'might' make it. I am trying to force myself to trash any plant that goes through a growing season without new roots. I bought 500 mis-treated Cattleya in February (really really cheap) and most have new roots everywhere. The rest do not look like they will make it. I will give them until the end of the summer. Without new roots the summer heat will cook them anyway.

[Orchidflowerchild]

In my experience with Masdevallias, they will take a long period of jut sub-par conditions, but once some part of the environment goes over to *very* far from optimal, they will just go toes up. Given that we are usually not able to achieve the constantly boyant humid environment, or the slightly acidic, but very low salt water they recieve, or the proper level of light with the low temps, it is not surprising that a drastic hot snap pushes them over the edge. It's as if they will be fine with one aspect of culture not perfect, but not two.

-Cj

[Sharyn]

Interesting thread. I do not grow any Masdevallias, however, it is somewhat comforting to know that the experts and professional growers also experience failures. Not that I'm glad about it at all, just that I feel better that I'm not alone when something goes amiss and I lose an orchid after all other efforts have failed. I'll chalk it up to a growing experience and try again. Believe it or not, this thread is an encouragement for me.

[rodbender]

Now that I think I have Phrags willing to grow for me I was considering Masdevalias. But now dont know seeing even those of you Way more experienced than I are having problems with them. Will definatly have to keep an eye on this thread

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by rodbender

Now that I think I have Phrags willing to grow for me I was considering Masdevalias. But now dont know seeing even those of you Way more experienced than I are having problems with them. Will definatly have to keep an eye on this thread

Rod, Comparing phrags and massies, I'm of the opinion that the conditions phrags need are more like the conditions we find in our windowsills. I have lost probably half of the 15 or so massies I've grown to incidents similar to what I've described above. On the other hand I've grown more than 70 phrags and never lost a single one.

[clarita]

Originally Posted by kmarch

I think you're probably right, that it was a little of this that exacerbates a little of that, etc., etc. and surprise....sudden death. There was a bit of mold in the triangularis, on the plant itself not in the mix.)

My response has been sitting for awhile sorry if it's redundant

Bingo!
Happened to me too. I had a humidity problem that turned into a mold problem so bad I had to leave. No joke.


PLEASE bleach the area. Certain molds can be incredibly dangerous to humans.
Better safe than sorry. I know first hand. Happened fast too.

My therory was that the mold attacked right under the sheath where water tends to collect undetected. It continues to move down to the media and eventually, I would suppose, the roots. You may want to do the normal stuffs, increase your air, carefully water, treat/ change the media .Hope for the best. Out of curiousity, how thin are the leaves?

It seems that temp wasn't a factor as it affected both the cool growers and warm growers. The warm growers that tended to have thicker leaves just fell apart when picked them up to water. The masde pictured below gets a water reduction in winter. That could have contributed to the quick demise. I wasn't feeling well myself, looking for a new space and not really paying attention to water reductions of masde's.

I also stopped using the compressed spag after this incident. I didn't like what I saw when I de-potted. The Chilean spag tends to "matt down" after a short period of time. I use a mix of NZ moss, tree fern bonsai grade pumice and a little charcol keep the media really open.

Below my "exploding masde". wasn't my best plant. (princeps, not a stellar bloomer under peak conditions). It was a "conditions tester". (Plants that I test the waters with during outdoor migration light changes etc). It had been tested on for 6 months when this happened though:



That was the 1st one....I had masde's consumed in 48 hours. The thinner the leaves were, the faster they were affected. Some died almost immediately. Absolutely nothing I could to stop it. Some were moved and still didn't survive. Some hung on, but died within days, 10 days at best. Cynthia and I exchanged some PM's when it happened. Nothing was working to stop the mold problem. Bayer 3 in 1 in much more frequent and heavier applications finally worked. I swear by that stuff now. My best masde's pachyura & polysticta are both very thin leaved and they lived through it
I hope it helps.

[exasperatus2002]

Time for an evaporative cooler to help with the temps.

[Bolero]

Kevin, I haven't read all the responses due to time restraints but I will answer by saying that the amount of heat we've just had was way to much which you probably realise by now. I put my pots in trays so if it gets into the mid 30's (celcius) I carry the trays into the cooler environment of my home. If I don't do this I would lose a lot more leaves than I do. I don't lose many at all. I guess in this environment we share, we will lost leaves at times no matter what we do but if you have space I just put a plastic sheet over my dining room table and sit them there if I know it's going to be hot. I have left them outside a few times in the heat by accident and it didn't affect them to much but if it gets well over 30C for a sustained period of time you will have problems. They seem to like the spot I give them in front of the air conditioner.

By using a couple of trays they are easy to move around without any adverse effects. If it's a mold problem then try and grow them a bit drier, I am surprised by how dry they grow (without letting them dry out too much of course). It has taken a lot of practice to get it just right and I think I've done ok this year.

But up to the low 30's isn't so bad for them. Just the odd leaf lost so far. I hope that all makes sense.

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by Bolero

I hope that all makes sense.

It does make sense and thanks. However, all my massies were being grown indoors anyway. I already had them in the coolest place I could manage indoors.

[mbasden]

Besides the fungal problem have you checked for insects? Some insects are vectors for fungal infections and all the area may need to be checked well and disinfected. Just a thought.