Phal. inquiry

[kocich1]

Could be me. I should really take a picture of it. It is quite amazing seeing two very healthy spikes coming off the original spike at the crest. It is growing like mad!! I can tell everyday when I come home that it has changed.

I will take a picture tonight

—K

[kocich1]

Saw the picture. Puts mine to shame put I am still taking pictures.

—K

[PhalPal]

Kevin if I have no intention of ever showing an orchid, does it make a difference if it is a clone?? Is their a difference in the health and hardiness of a plant if it is a copy versus a species??

I'm asking because with a house full of pets, by far the healthiest are my mixed breeds. Line breeding of the purebreds certainly magnifies any genetic problems present in the line.

I guess I am really asking two questions: Are mixed breed orchids more hardy? (like animals) AND Is a clone less hardy then the original parent??

[exasperatus2002]

Cloning allows you to get as close of a copy of a "special" plant as you can since growing one by seed allows for variations based on genetics of the parents. Hybridizing can help over come, from my limited understanding, difficulties from certain species. Such as difficult to flower species, disease resistance (look at what they do for our food...ex corn), flower count..... The purpose of a hybrid would be to make something more hardy then the parents and for some, to create something special (color, flower count, flower size... yada yada yada). Clones shouldnt be any different then the original that was cloned since its the same plant, genetically speaking.

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by PhalPal

Kevin if I have no intention of ever showing an orchid, does it make a difference if it is a clone??

Mmmm, good question. Before I get to your answer, let me explain some things that will make the answer more clear. In most US orchid shows there are 2 kinds of orchid judging, what some call "ribbon judging" or "show judging" and then AOS judging. "Ribbon judging" at shows is a little like judging a dog show. There are different classes in which plants are awarded first, second, and third place ribbons. Related classes are grouped together and from among all the first place sinners in that group a trophy winner is chosen (Best Cattleya or Best Slipper Orchid Trophy for example). Finally the Best in Show winner is chosen form all of the trophy winners. With ribbon judging, flower quality is only one of several things considered. The health of the plant, how well it is flowered and displayed, and other things are considered in addition to flower quality. In this kind of judging clones are permitted and are often entered.

It is in AOS judging that clones are disqualified. AOS judging is the kind of judging that is usually discussed on the forum here.

So now more specifically to your question: you can show clones, but they probably won't win an AOS award although they very well could receive a first, second, or third place ribbon or even a trophy. And finally, regardless of whether you're into showing or not, either way, clones are perfectly fine to have in your collection. In fact some folks prefer them because with a clone it is easier to know what you going to get if you're buying plants that are not yet blooming size. Clones are usually made from an awarded plant and so presents an opportunity to have in your collection a plant that is perhaps a little "better."

Originally Posted by PhalPal

Is their a difference in the health and hardiness of a plant if it is a copy versus a species??

Remember that a species is an orchid that is found in wild, unhybridized with other species, so if I understand you correctly I think you're asking if there is a difference in the health and hardiness if a plant is a clone versus seed grown. Clones are made from both species and hybrids.

Because clones are often made from superior, awarded plants, they are frequently healthy, hardy plants. The purpose of cloning plants is to sell hundreds or even thousands of them to a wider market. For these commercial reasons it is desirable then to clone plants that are bigger, healthier, and more vigorous with lots of nice flowers.

It should not always be assumed that clone = healthier plant though. Sometimes a cloned plant is re-cloned. When you start cloning clones genetic drift occurs and sometimes you get deformities that range from plants that grow but won't bloom to plants that are weak and horribly deformed.

Originally Posted by PhalPal

I'm asking because with a house full of pets, by far the healthiest are my mixed breeds. Line breeding of the purebreds certainly magnifies any genetic problems present in the line.

Were getting away from the subject of cloning here but I'll continue anyway.

We call "mixed breed" orchids "hybrids." You'll often hear orchid growers/hobbiests/breeders talk about "hybrid vigor." Sometimes people will say things like, "hybrids are easier to grow than species." What is actually happening is that we're creating plants that are tolerant of a wider range of conditions thereby maximizing the likelihood that a plant will grow and bloom well in the conditions a hobbiest has to offer. Mini-catts are a good example. Cool growing Sophronites are crossed with other intermediate growing species or hybrids. Because one parent is cool growing and another parent is intermediate growing the offspring are therefore usually tolerant of a much wider range of temperatures than either of the parents.

The bottom line is that any orchid will grow vigorously in ideal conditions and if the range of ideal conditions is very large, as is the case with a lot of hybrids, then those plants are more likely to grow more vigorously in the varried conditions found in hobbiests growing spaces.

Line breeding of orchid species doesn't necessarily magnify genetic problems. The goal of line breeding in fact is just the opposite. The goal of line breeding is to improve the quality of a species (both the flower quality and the vigor) which then can be used to create improved hybrids. This is an instance where pets and orchids differ.

Originally Posted by PhalPal

I guess I am really asking two questions: Are mixed breed orchids more hardy?

Hardiness is only partly genetic. It also depends heavily on growing conditions and our culture. Also are you talking clones or seed grown hybrids? If seed grown, and if I limit myself to genetic makeup, then the offspring can vary widely in their vigor. I had 2 plants of Blc. Burgundy Delight, seed grown from the same pod. One was small and weak, growing slowly and producing only a few small (although beautiful) flowers. The other plant grew fast and large producing 5-7 flowers on each inflorescence. So within a pod of seeds some plants (just like some animals or people) can turn out big and strong while others are slight.

Now to this add what I said above, about how hybrids are generally tolerant of a wider range of conditions. Given ideal conditions, any orchid can grow well. If an orchid can grow well in a wide range of conditions, this allows for more hobbiests to be able to grow somethign in the conditions they already have.

Originally Posted by PhalPal

AND Is a clone less hardy then the original parent??

In my opinion, no. They are just as hardy as the parent.

[PhalPal]

Thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions Kevin.
I would imagine 'purebred' orchids have been filtered out by nature, and those who are not hardy and unable to survive in the wild no longer exist. I am learning to love growing species. I can read a culture sheet and know exactly what they want. With the hybrids, there are so many variables with hybrids mixing with hybrids, culture is not so exact.

[PhalPal]

Okay everyone - I did it. I ordered the 'Penang Girl' NBS from Chesterfield Orchids for $16.50. The one availble from Bedford was NBS as well; where do they get off charging $50?? I'll let you know how she looks when it gets here. Of course, to make shipping more reasonable, I never order one orchid. It was just $1 more to have them ship a 'Sharry Baby' in double spike along with it. It was on my shopping list for the next orchid show (Feb 8-10) and I don't like walking around crowded orchid shows with long spikes. Pictures to come!

[Orchidflowerchild]

Originally Posted by kmarch

Hmmmm....There are a couple of potential problems here. 1) If the plant has not been awarded, then the cultivar name 'Ching Reuy' would not bear any authority. Cultivar names not given as a result of being awarded and not recorded in an awards register are not valid. If one of you had one of these and got it awarded, you would not be obligated to keep the 'Ching Reuy' cultivar name. 2) The second potential problem lies in whether it is a mericlone or not. If it is a mericlone, then it is not awardable. The original parent plant may still be awardable, but the mericlones would not be.

I really must voice (perhaps again) my disagreement with the mentality that all clonal names must be followed by an award designation. I feel that it is only responsible to attach a clonal name to ANY plant being cloned, divided, or otherwise asexually reproduced, so as to avoid confusion. In the case of a plant being mass-cloned, it is absolutely imperative, in my mind. As an occasional seller and aspiring breeder of orchids, I would also say here that I designate clonal names to any plant I bloom out that I feel is either award quality or special. Should I decide to have a plant cloned, or divide it, I want the plant to be identifiable from others of it's cross or species, and should it be awarded elsewhere (division, keikei, whatever), I would much rather it carry my designated clonal name, considering I own the mother plant. Though there is no valid registry for such clonal names, I think it is perfectly acceptable to designate a clonal epithet for a plant one owns that one considers to be worthy of such, especially if one is a breeder/seller of orchids.

Even if I were not to designate a specific clonal name to a plant for reasons of it's quality, if I were dividing and sharing it or cloning it, I would designate a clonal name to avoid the possibility of someone inadvertantly having two of the same clone.

-Cj

[kmarch]

Cj,

I understand your position and the usefullness of applying cultivar epithets to non-awarded plants. I can understand why you'd want to do this. To clarify, I wasn't stating anopinion on whether or not I thought non-awarded plants should be given cultivar names as much as I was laying out the reality of the situation. Cultivar names not given/registered resulting from an award are not binding. Someone who bought one of your plants and got it awarded could choose to keep your cultivar name if they wished but would be under no obligation to do so. The point is probably moot anyway because if the plant was a clone and the judges were aware of it, it would most likely not be awarded.

There's another ethical issue in play here and that is that people less knowledgable of such practices (givign cultivar names to non-awarded plants) might think that they're buying an awarded plant when they are not. I'm sure you're upfront about this when you sell your orchids but some are unfortunately not. Awarded plants, even clones are often more expensive (not always) and giving the impression that a plant is awarded when it is not could lead to other questionable practices. It's somethign orchidists should be mindful of.

[Orchidflowerchild]

Originally Posted by kmarch

Cj,

I understand your position and the usefullness of applying cultivar epithets to non-awarded plants. I can understand why you'd want to do this. To clarify, I wasn't stating anopinion on whether or not I thought non-awarded plants should be given cultivar names as much as I was laying out the reality of the situation. Cultivar names not given/registered resulting from an award are not binding. Someone who bought one of your plants and got it awarded could choose to keep your cultivar name if they wished but would be under no obligation to do so. The point is probably moot anyway because if the plant was a clone and the judges were aware of it, it would most likely not be awarded.

There's another ethical issue in play here and that is that people less knowledgable of such practices (givign cultivar names to non-awarded plants) might think that they're buying an awarded plant when they are not. I'm sure you're upfront about this when you sell your orchids but some are unfortunately not. Awarded plants, even clones are often more expensive (not always) and giving the impression that a plant is awarded when it is not could lead to other questionable practices. It's somethign orchidists should be mindful of.

Well, unless I think the plant is awardable, I just tack on a code number.

As for official registry of clonal epithets, from the perspective of a breeder, what about plant patents and other means of registering cultivars? I guess my feeling is, if you've worked with any group of orchids long enough, you can spot a potential award on first bloom. Of course, you aren't likely to start setting capsules on that plant on first bloom, and I wouldn't exihibit a plant until at *least* the 2nd or 3rd blooming. However, from a commercial perspective, it makes a lot of sense to have that quality plant cloned. Within two years you have clones coming out of flask which are immediately marketable, vs. three years waiting for an award and a plant strong enough to hold a capsule. Now, if you register that clone with a plant patent ahead of time, that *is* a binding designation. In fact, I'd wager that a plant patent is more binding than an award.

Not that, in practice, a clonal name means beans. As it turns out, changing a name on a tag in one's greenhouse is very easy, and despite how unethical, does happen. Who can prove one way or the other? The only way to really protect your investment as a breeder/exhibitor would be to keep a gene map of all of your awarded/cloned plants.

-Cj

[kmarch]

Again Cj, all valid points which I understand, especially from a commercial/business perspective. Realistically though, it is very, very unlikely that any patented orchid would ever win an AOS award anyway. The reason is because a patented plant is probably a clone. I suppose the grower could conceivably win a cultural award with one, like a CCM or CCE, but that's it. Your original plant could possibly be awarded with for flower quality as well but not the clones. Again if you patented an orchid, cloned it, sold it to someone who then put it up for judging, and if the judges were aware it was a clone, it would not be awarded. This makes the question of cultivar name authority irrelevant.

And again I'm just giving you the reality of the situation here, I'm not saying what should or should not be, but if you sold someone a division of a plant (or the original plant for that matter) to which you had given a cultivar name, but which had not yet been awarded, and if that person put the plant up for judging and gets it awarded, that person would be under no obligation to retain the given but technically invalid cultivar name. (Please don't be insulted by my calling it "invalid" I'm not intending to be insulting or anything I'm just laying it out like it is.)

Patent registration has no bearing on the AOS award system except that in the process of judging a team may need to do a little research to see if a cultivar name was given as a result of a previous award, or as a way of distinguishing a batch of cloned plants. If the former, the plant will have to beat its previous award (not an easy thing to do) if the latter (a clone) it won't be awarded.

[articuno75]

Originally Posted by PhalPal

Okay everyone - I did it. I ordered the 'Penang Girl' NBS from Chesterfield Orchids for $16.50. The one availble from Bedford was NBS as well; where do they get off charging $50?? I'll let you know how she looks when it gets here. Of course, to make shipping more reasonable, I never order one orchid. It was just $1 more to have them ship a 'Sharry Baby' in double spike along with it. It was on my shopping list for the next orchid show (Feb 8-10) and I don't like walking around crowded orchid shows with long spikes. Pictures to come!

Did you get yours from them yet? With all the stress of the past week, I broke down and bought it. I figured since the other site wants over double the price, these would go pretty quickly.

[PhalPal]

I got it yesterday Jenny!!!!! It looks great and is much larger then I thought it would be. Now, the Sharry Baby has a lot of fungal spots on the leaves. ALOT. Covered. I was really disappointed in that plant and doubt I will ever order from Chesterfield again, but the Penang Girl should be fine for you. Isolate just to be sure!!

One thing I really like about Phals is that it is easy to spot bugs or other problems on their leaves when I buy them. I like to give them a little bath to perk them up and check them out real good. Not a spot on the PG.

[articuno75]

It could be just the timing too, cause I just got my Dens yesterday and one of them has fungal growth too. I think it's the transport and exposure through the cold on top of condensation and lack of air circulation. I'll be posting pics of what I'm talking about later. Oooo I can't wait. Chesterfield has them listed as BS now instead of NBS. YAY!

[articuno75]

My little girl came in the mail today!!! I was a little disappointed as one of the leaves was broken, but I think it'll manage. The heat pack was bigger than the plant and the jostling during shipping smacked it. You'd think they would have secured the heat pack or something. Oh well. I had to treat with Peroxide real quick and we'll go from there. The leaf is hanging by a thread. I don't think it'll make it and will probably fall off. It's still cute. You're right Connie. Not a spot on them and other than the shipping damage, it's perfect!!! I can't wait 'til it blooms!!!

[articuno75]

My consciensious kept screaming at me..."Check the roots. Check the roots." I'm glad I checked the roots. They didn't look the greatest in the spagh that they were in so I repotted in my Aussie Gold. Whew, that was close. I sent a message to Chesterfield about the shipping damage, and they told me to give it a month. If the plant becomes comprimised within a month, they'll replace it. How cool is that?