crown rot treatment?

[sandra]

I have a Phal that lost all it's roots about 1&1/2 months ago. I took the advice of a nursery who grows mostly Phals who told me to pot it up in Hydroton, a little sphag. along the parameter of the pot and to water every 3 days. The plant ended up losing all but one leaf but grew 2 new ones with another on it's way. As well, 2 new, big fat healthy roots are growing. All looks well but this morning I noticed the crown, along one side has turned jet black? I did a search here and majority ruled that most people agree to treat this with hydrogen peroxide, which I did. How much peroxide should I use? How often? And is this necessarily indicative of crown rot? The plant seems to be healthy? I'll post a pic in a while but in the meantime, any advice?

P.S. It's my favorite Phal. (my avatar)

[Tobi]

Sandra,
Here's a short link for treatment with hydrogen peroxide.

Orchid Growing Tips #11 - Orchids - 19k

P.S. Love the avatar. Great looking Phal.

[sandra]

Originally Posted by Tobi

Sandra,
Here's a short link for treatment with hydrogen peroxide.

Orchid Growing Tips #11 - Orchids - 19k

P.S. Love the avatar. Great looking Phal.

Tobi, thanks so much for this link. I'll go give it a bit more than I did. I'm just a little doubtful that if it isn't crown rot, could the hydrogen peroxide adversely affect the plant? And if it isn't crown rot, what else could it possibly be?

[Tobi]

I doubt it would hurt even if it's not crown rot. But if it's black, good chance
it's bacterial.

[pikevi]

Sandra: I am sorry to hear about the rot.

I believe you would have gotten the H2O2 from a drugstore( i.e. not a commercial brand). It will be probably 3% H2O2. Quite safe to use it on plants. I believe it is safe because it can be and has been used on open wounds. ( half that dilution is still better)

The link Tobi gave also suggests that you can just 'pour' it into the rot. And I think she is talking about the same strength as well in that article.

Hope you can save it or as the URL says get a keiki.

I saw one like that here, which I subsequently found out to be known as Harlequin orchid-thanks to kmarch- but I did not buy it since it was priced at $30 or so. I really liked it.

Later on I bought about 16 'end-of-bloom' Phals from the same store and I am hoping beyond hope that beauty will be amongst the batch

Good luck.

[sandra]

Thanks again Tobi and thanks pikevi. So sad here..... I'm going to go treat it now. All may not be lost.

[WIB]

Pikevi: When you say "half that dilution" do you mean 6 percent or 1.5 percent? -- Bill

[pikevi]

WIB: 1.5%

water:H2O2(drugstore)= 1:1

H2O2 is quite harmles to tissues since it degrades into water and oxygen right away. But in certain situations the intial contact, however short the exposure is, with sensitised cells is thought to delay the healing process. No great harm done even if it is used in a higher concentration than 3%.

Cleaning the normal skin is not a problem and orchids with a relatively hardier outer layer (cuticle?) will be much more resistant to irritation, I assume.

[WIB]

Pikevi: So, orchids 3 percent, grandchildren 1.5 percent. Gotcha. Thanks. - B

[sandra]

Here's a pic. I unpotted it and cleaned it with the hydrogen peroxide. There was a thick outer layer of something, not sure what it's called but it softened after the application and it easily came away from the plant. I think I'm hoping against hope though. Any advice besides kiss it goodbye?

[mayres]

Sandra - that is a major bummer. I had a work friend bring me her orchid with a black center as well - she had already killed four phals and was noticing that her fifth was not looking healthy. Of course there is nothing in orchid care tags that tells people who purchase them not let water set in the crowns late in the day or otherwise not adequately dry (through air movement, temp, etc.). She was misting the plant regularly and getting the crown wet. I immediately removed two spikes, repotted, and placed keiki paste on the lower nodes. Now we pray that either a basal keiki or spike keiki will form! Good luck to you and yours - those are really nice flowers - would be a shame to loose it.
Oh my - I just noted that you posted a pic after I posted. That does NOT look good! I hope I am 100% wrong, but that looks like bad news. Crown rot I have seen usually starts in the very center of the phal, not at the base of the next to last leaf like that. mike

[sandra]

Mike, this plant started with root rot. I immediately took all measures and it was growing well...it lost it's original 2 out of 3 leaves, grew 2 more leaves (and one now growing), has 2 healthy roots. This black spot all of a sudden appeared overnight. There were never any signs of crown rot, no black spots, nothing. It was coming along just fine and now, this! I was extremely careful and am with all my Phals not to get any moisture whatsoever anywhere near the crown. I water all of them with a measuring cup because of the spout and am soooooooooo careful. But with all this said, crown rot which is what I think this is, is caused by mositure getting trapped so, as careful as I thought I was, wasn't careful enough! OK, I'm bummed out now Mike!

[pikevi]

sandra: Has the blackened area gone through the thickness of the leaf? Has it spread to the other leaf on the right of the picture?

If it has I 'd think it is better to remove the left leaf (the infected one) so that the right one will be 'exposed' to air/oxygen. Check with mayres or kmarch or jerrymeola before you do that . I am only looking at how suitable the environment will be for bacterial proliferation. Tobi can shed more light on this aspect.

I hope someone will tell you of a decisive step to take.

If it is me I will remove it or at least bend it as far as I can to expose the base of the 'good' leaf.

But I lack the experience to give you a definite reply. Sorry.

Good luck.

[sandra]

pikevi, the black is contained solely on the base, not on any of the leaves. This is so sad. I thought I was headed for a happy ending with Ms. Harlequin.

[pikevi]

I think you still have a chance of reviving it ( Ignorance is bliss?), since you say the other two leaves are OK.

I magnified that area and it seems it is definitely bacterial. I feel very uneasy about leaving that black area intact especially since it is too extensive and is in constant contact with the base ( more vulnerable) of the good leaf.

I hope Tobi will come to the aid and tell you if it is OK to leave it there.

The appearence does not really conform to the description of a crown rot as far as I understood it. May be there are different forms of crown rot.

I hope the plant is in isolation.

[mayres]

Hi Sandra -
My two cents worth - "IF" and I do mean "IF" you can remove the blackened area of the plant without destroying what is left of it I would do so immediately. Otherwise I'm afraid it will overtake the entire plant. It is hard to tell from the pic - if you can take a sharp sterile razer blade or knife and cut it off/out without doing in the plant or not?

[Tobi]

Sandra,
It doesn't look really good. It depends on how much damage the bacteria
has done to the tissue of the plant. The bacteria Pseudomonas is usually
the main culprit in crown rot of Phals. Continue with the hydrogen peroxide
treatment and sprinkle with cinnamon to help eradicate any fungal infestation.
If you can get some Physan 20, you can try that as well, It has been known
to kill bacteria and fungus as well. Once again, it depends on how much
tissue damage the plant has acquired. Hope you can save your 'chid. Time
will tell.

[sandra]

Originally Posted by mayres

Hi Sandra -
My two cents worth - "IF" and I do mean "IF" you can remove the blackened area of the plant without destroying what is left of it I would do so immediately. Otherwise I'm afraid it will overtake the entire plant. It is hard to tell from the pic - if you can take a sharp sterile razer blade or knife and cut it off/out without doing in the plant or not?

I'm afraid I can't Mike. The base it tiny as it virtually started over when it grew those top leaves. It's a gonner, I know, I've been in denial but it can't be any more obvious than anything else but death now. I just wish I knew if anything else could have caused this so I can prevent it in the future if it wasn't trapped moisture that caused this. Is it possible that the hydrogren peroxide can stop the spread and just maybe, the plant will continue on and remain discolored? I'm in denial, huh?

[sandra]

pikevi, I'm just now seeing this post. You've given me hope. Thank you. I definitely cannot remove the black as the base where it's on is quite tiny and the slightest cutting, I'm afraid, will go right through to the other side...there's not enough meat on it but, I won't give up just yet.

Originally Posted by pikevi

I think you still have a chance of reviving it ( Ignorance is bliss?), since you say the other two leaves are OK.

[sandra]

I'm so glad you responded here Tobi. Thank You. I have Physon 20...should I dilute or use full strength? Should I use all 3 - hydrogen peroxide, the Physon and cinammon? I know this is impending doom but just maybe?

Originally Posted by Tobi

Sandra,
It doesn't look really good. It depends on how much damage the bacteria
has done to the tissue of the plant. The bacteria Pseudomonas is usually
the main culprit in crown rot of Phals. Continue with the hydrogen peroxide
treatment and sprinkle with cinnamon to help eradicate any fungal infestation.
If you can get some Physan 20, you can try that as well, It has been known
to kill bacteria and fungus as well. Once again, it depends on how much
tissue damage the plant has acquired. Hope you can save your 'chid. Time
will tell.

[mayres]

"What can be learned from this experience to help in the future?" I have not grown phals in S/H before so am not qualified to answer, but I AM curious (always to learn! ) - is there any chance what caused this is having the plant too deeply in the pellets to where this portion of the plant never dried out?

[Tobi]

Sandra,
Sorry I took so long to get back to you, but I wanted to check out some other
sources as to the usage of Physan 20 to treat crown rot. Some say that it is
used as only a preventative rather than a cure, while others say that it is
effective in killing both bacteria and fungi. The recommended dilution is a
capful or 1 teaspoon concentrate to 1 gal. water. I read that it can be
harmful to the roots if used as a wash. some recommended just spraying
the infected area. Just about all sources agreed on the peroixde and
cinnamon treatment if cutting away all of the infected areas is not possible.

[sandra]

Mike, I wasn't growing this in s/h with a reservoir. Are you referring to what I was growing it in, the Hydroton? I used it only on this Phal when I noticed the root loss. The nursery nearby grows all their Phals in this and told me to do this but maybe you're right about how deep I had it planted. I didn't think of that, I just potted it the way I normally do when using bark mix. OK, I think you're on to something here Mike. I'm going to have to check all my Phals (20 plus) when I log out of here and make sure nothing is looming elsewhere....

[sandra]

Tobi, thank you again and again for taking the time with this. I really appreciate what you, Mike and pikevi have offered.

So, I'll just remain on course then with treating it with the peroxide and cinammon and just wait now...................sniffles.

Originally Posted by Tobi

Sandra,
Sorry I took so long to get back to you, but I wanted to check out some other
sources as to the usage of Physan 20 to treat crown rot.

[Tobi]

Originally Posted by mayres

"What can be learned from this experience to help in the future?" I have not grown phals in S/H before so am not qualified to answer, but I AM curious (always to learn! ) - is there any chance what caused this is having the plant too deeply in the pellets to where this portion of the plant never dried out?

Mike,
I glad you brought up this thought. After talking to some of the people who
had been growing their Phals and Paphs in S/H, this was one of the reasons
that they have gone back to growing them in traditional media. They were
experiencing crown rot and thought that might be the reason. I'm not saying
that you can't successfully grow them in S/H, this is just info I am passing
on from them.

[sandra]

Tobi, I don't dispute this but for the record, read my response #23. I haven't been growing this in s/h.

Originally Posted by Tobi

Mike,
I glad you brought up this thought. After talking to some of the people who
had been growing their Phals and Paphs in S/H, this was one of the reasons
that they have gone back to growing them in traditional media. They were
experiencing crown rot and thought that might be the reason. I'm not saying
that you can't successfully grow them in S/H, this is just info I am passing
on from them.

[pikevi]

Tobi/mayres: Since the prognosis seems to be bleak why not remove the leaf completely.It will still have two good leaves. And surely it will stop further spread if H2O2/cinnamon is applied concurrently.

Full exposure to air will help the good leaves whether the offending bacteria is pseudomonas or corynebacterium.

I would appreciate if you can explain the rationale behind keeping the leaf when it is almost completely gone at the base. I am not second guessing your decision but I would like to learn more about orchid care.

Thanks.

[sandra]

pikevi, the bottom leaf has not been affected....yet anyways. Do you suggest that by removing it, more of the base will be exposed for treatment?

Originally Posted by pikevi

Tobi/mayres: Since the prognosis seems to be bleak why not remove the leaf completely.It will still have two good leaves. And surely it will stop further spread if H2O2/cinnamon is applied concurrently.

Full exposure to air will help the good leaves whether the offending bacteria is pseudomonas or corynebacterium.

I would appreciate if you can explain the rationale behind keeping the leaf when it is almost completely gone at the base. I am not second guessing your decision but I would like to learn more about orchid care.

Thanks.

[pikevi]

sandra: my views SHOULD not count. Follow what Tobi or mayres is recommending.

These bacteria thrive in anaerobic surrounding. I was merely thinking of removing the aiding factors at the same time maximising the efficacy of the treatment. But it may just be theoretical. If I can convince them that it is better to remove the leaf to clean (H2O2) and apply the medication (cinnamon) to the more sensitive areas of the base of the other too good leaves it may increase the chance of the plant's survival.

They know a lot more than I do so please stay with their line in thinking.

Good luck.

[Tobi]

Originally Posted by pikevi

Full exposure to air will help the good leaves whether the offending bacteria is pseudomonas or corynebacterium.

Pikevi,
Corynebaterium. I am impressed! I knew that it caused ring rot of potatos
and bacterial canker of tomatos, but I was unaware of any harmful causes
in orchids.

[sandra]

Tobi, if I can pick your brain with one more question...pleeeeze.

I'm afraid to put the Physon directly on the area because it's mostly water, the culprit to begin with. Should I take the Phal out of the media and keep it out and continue to treat it with the peroxide, cinammon and added Physon, keeping it out of full light?

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by sandra

...it's mostly water, the culprit to begin with.

Although watery, you can safely use Physan because none of the harmful bacteria will be able to grow in the Physan. Make sense? Actually the water itself isn't the culprit, it's the bacteria that is enabled by the water. No bacteria, no problem.

[Tobi]

Sandra,
I'm not sure if removing the Phal from the media will help any. I agree that
the increase of water probably is not encouraging. The physan should not
be a detrement as far as I know especially if you use it as a spray.
I have not had any personal experience with crown rot, I'm just going by
what I have read and talked to people that have dealt with this. My only
concern is not being able to remove the entire infected area without
destroying the crown.

[sandra]

Nothing gained at this point if I don't try something more so I soaked the plant and entire pot w/medium in a solution of Physan 20 (2 tsp. per gallon) for 20 minutes, applied a good amount of the hydrogen peroxide and cinammon to the entire stem. Will continue spraying with the Physan even other day. I'll keep the plant inside tonight as the temps have dropped and the plant's wet. I'll update on it's progress (fingers crossed) or decline. A good lesson for others here to learn from.

[pikevi]

Best of luck, sandra.

You are doing the best you can. The rest is up to the plant.

Tobi: I have no clue as to the specificity of those bacteria in plant pathology. I only know that some species of both genera are pathogenic to humans. I just knew they cause 'rot' in plants, that is all.

[Tobi]

Sandra,
I am keeping my fingers crossed for you. I am hoping all of us learn a great
deal from your experience, both bad and hopefully good. As I stated above,
I personally have not had to deal with crown rot, but your trial with this will
certainly enlighten me if I should encounter it in the future. Once again, we're
all pulling for its recovery.

[Tobi]

Originally Posted by pikevi

Tobi: I have no clue as to the specificity of those bacteria in plant pathology. I only know that some species of both genera are pathogenic to humans. I just knew they cause 'rot' in plants, that is all.

Pikevi,
When I said I was impressed, I really meant I was impressed that you had
even heard of the genus Corynebacterium. Most people, when you talk to them
about orchid diseases, just know that bacteria, fungi and viral infections are
bad. Being a Microbiologist, I am more interested in the microbes responsible
for causing the types of infections. I am still a novice with these in the field
of Botany, but am learning everything I can. Once again, it's nice to see that
someone has heard of the different types of bacteria and know them by name.

[pikevi]

LOL, they are really 'accidental knowledge'.

Corynebacterium species are found on our body and is usually harmelss just like Staphylococcus and Streptococcus but can be lethal when they infect the mucous membranes. C.diphtheriae causes diphtheria in children and and many species of them can cause bovine mastitis which is of some importance to humans because it is zoonotic.

I am glad this forum is very educational

[sandra]

Thanks once again (and again!) to you all for helping me with this. Well, I woke up this morning and little Harlequin is still alive...tick, tock, tick, tock but with everything I've read up on, the bacteria, unless removed will get the plant. There's no way I can remove the infected tissue because of it's size on such a very small stem here. Very doubtful it will grow a keiki because of it's recent recovery from root rot.

I'm still not sure what the lesson by this loss is though. It's not typical crown rot. The bacteria formed on the stem of a recovering plant that was doing well. The media is very successful for growing phals, so it's not the media although I generally pot my phals in bark, charcoal, perlite and a little sphag. I don't think I potted it too far down into the media? This spot appeared overnight so I'm still in the dark with how to prevent this in the future?

I emailed a nursery down in Miami last evening who grow Harlequins and may have exactly the same one I'm about to lose.

Live and learn....and still remain in the dark sometimes!

[pikevi]

Sandra: Don't despair.

I think you still have a possibility of saving it. I am not knowledgeable or experienced enough but I have brought one phal up from far worse situation than what yours is in.

One of the Phal.( end of bloom) from Rona which was potted with a good orchid by the grower, I assume, and during re-potting a bunch of 'root ball' just fell off with a few good roots. It did not have a single leaf. I potted this part separately and left it in the mini GH and it is growing. I think I posted a picture in another thread.

I wish Tobi or mayres will recommend removing the 'rot' ,however deep it is, as soon as possible: even if it results in removing the crown. It may just be my wishful thinking.

I hope you all won't get mad when a novice attempts to give advice. I am just airing my views.

I am attaching the photo of a shoot coming off the 'root ball'

[Tobi]

Originally Posted by pikevi

I wish Tobi or mayres will recommend removing the 'rot' ,however deep it is, as soon as possible: even if it results in removing the crown. It may just be my wishful thinking.

Pikevi, I agree that removing the rot is the best chance of survival. The way
Sandra described the area and from the picture, I was concerned that if all
the rot was cut away that the Phal would become detached from its roots.
That was the only reason I suggested trying the treatment of peroxide and
cinnamon.

[pikevi]

OK, I got it. Thanks Tobi

I was only thinking if the treatment will reach the intended target.

I may just induce a crown rot and try to revive it- if it is possible- with one of my Phals. I hope one of mine will volunteer as a 'guinea pig', hehehehe

[sandra]

We're all in agreement then that if I leave this bacterial spot on the stem, it's curtains, right? Then with nothing more to lose, should I just go ahead and carefully try to cut away this spot? It's on 2 thirds of the parameter of the stem which I assume beforehand means that I'll have nothing or not enough left or intact or attached to the 2 roots? Should I just go for it?

[sandra]

pikevi, I'm not quite following. Is this pic a development from just the root ball? What exactly did you pot? That's hopeful news.

Originally Posted by pikevi

I have brought one phal up from far worse situation than what yours is in.

One of the Phal.( end of bloom) from Rona which was potted with a good orchid by the grower, I assume, and during re-potting a bunch of 'root ball' just fell off with a few good roots. It did not have a single leaf.

[Tobi]

Sandra,
If cutting away all the bacterial rot dislodges the plant from all its roots,
then what is it's chance of survival then? This I'm uncertain of. I hate to
use the term "guinea pig" for your 'chid, but if trying the treatment with peroxide
will give us an idea of future treatment for bad crown rot, then maybe it's
worth a shot. Since bacterial rot usually spreads quite rapidly, you can monitor the success or failure of the peroxide and cinnamon applications.
I guess it's really your choice. By all means cutting away the infected area
is the best remedy, but at what cost, that I don't know.

[sandra]

Tobi, at this point, I'm very thoughtful that these suggestions are last ditch attempts because of the severity here. I've gained 10 fold the knowledge than what I'm probably about to lose. Hopefully, others will gain some insight for remedial treatment in the future. I'm still unclear though what you mean here

Originally Posted by Tobi

if trying the treatment with peroxide
will give us an idea of future treatment for bad crown rot, then maybe it's
worth a shot.

Cut or leave it alone?

What I'm thinking of doing is leaving it for now unless you suggest otherwise. I won't hold you responsible with it's demise, I promise...only if it survives

[pikevi]

Tobi is absolutely right. Both courses of action have their own pitfalls. If you feel that the orchid is responding well to the current treatment please continue.

If it is spreading ,which you can see by marking the periphery (cannot trust the naked eye) with a jotter (just a few strategically placed dots should suffice) remove the whole infected area and treat the plant. Refrain from watering , with the exception of kmarch's recommendation of Physan, and keep the medium on the 'dry' side.Application of physan is going to make it wet anyway.

I am afraid your plant may be a guines pig and I respect Tobi for being so careful not to treat it as such.

" When in doubt take it out" may apply here.

kmarch had mentioned that this kind of orchids are coming out into the market lately. So I am sure you will find one similar to this one should you lose this one. But I am almost certain it will survive the crisis.

Good luck.

As for your question I potted a bunch of bare roots that I got off a pot that had two plants:- one good one and this bunch of roots. I did not want to throw it away and I potted into the same mix I use for other Phals, and left it in te GH and NEVER watered it.... just sprays to keep the medium moist. The pot waas never dunked nor watered with a hose.

I hope it explains.

[sandra]

Originally Posted by pikevi

But I am almost certain it will survive the crisis.

That felt great to read! I love your optimism.

Originally Posted by pikevi

As for your question I potted a bunch of bare roots that I got off a pot that had two plants:- one good one and this bunch of roots. I did not want to throw it away and I potted into the same mix I use for other Phals, and left it in te GH and NEVER watered it.... just sprays to keep the medium moist. The pot waas never dunked nor watered with a hose.

I hope it explains.

Yes, thank you and if all else fails, this is what I'll do with this plant!

[Tobi]

Originally Posted by sandra

What I'm thinking of doing is leaving it for now unless you suggest otherwise. I won't hold you responsible with it's demise, I promise...only if it survives

Leave it, monitor it and if you continue to see it spread, then surgery is your
only alternative. I still believe in miracles though.

[sandra]

Originally Posted by Tobi

Leave it, monitor it and if you continue to see it spread, then surgery is your
only alternative. I still believe in miracles though.

OK then. I'll update as changes occur!

Thank you doesn't cut it but....thank you.

[pikevi]

sandra: I hope it can 'hear' the positive vibes

Tobi: I believe in miracles too, though I try my best to convince myself that those successes are the result of my 'tender loving care'

I can fool myself but I can't fool others.. sigh.. sigh

[brookn]

Sandra,
I have a suggestion that you might want to try. As bacteria generally prefers moist, warm conditions to thrive, try removing the plant to a shadier area, and point a fan at the area that is bad. I had some success with a phal that had gotten water into the crown, and had not actually begun to rot, but had the signs of it (puckered at the crown like a prune, softening of the tissue) I poured peroxide onto the area, and popped it in front of a fan for a couple of days, and it is fine now. Sprinkling with cinnamon won't hurt either, as it tends to dessicate the area, and has wonderful antibacterial properties, I swear by it.

I would also like to recommend soaking the plant instead of pouring water into the medium, it works well for me. I water that way and I also shower the phals in the sink, and yes I do get water into the crown. I do not recommend this for the newbies (I also do not recommend it for this particular plant). When the phal is done with its shower and soak, I tip it over onto it's side so that the water drips out of the crown area, I also turn the ceiling fan on in the kitchen full blast. I generally let the plants sit on their sides for at least 30 min. to an hour, then carefully check the crown for water. This has been effective for me as it gets really dusty here, and I am too busy to really do intensive leaf cleaning. The one phal. that I did not water this way, because it always seemed to be on the verge of kicking the bucket died of crown rot, go figure, one day it was fine, the next day I touched a leaf, and they all fell off. I am pretty sure it was just not ever going to be vigorous or healthy.

[pikevi]

sandra: I may have given you some wrong info. kmarch was referring to the first two photos of the attached Phal. photos as Harlequin Phal. It was quite expensive and I missed it by a day or two.

I also have another one which is similar to yours but less leathery to touch and also more darker. It could well be a Harlequin too. But kmarch specifically addressed the first two photos as Harlequin.

I am sorry about the confusion.

[sandra]

pikevi, you didn't give me wrong information. I've always referred to this as a Harlequin even though they're more typically thought to be Harlequin when describing heavier blotches or splashes of color throughout the flower. Mine have freckles but are raised which is another qualifying characteristic. No apologies required!

[sandra]

brookn, thanks for your advice here. I'm wiped out over all of this and so is my poor orchid. She's resting quietly now on a shelf and in the hands of the orchids gods now. I've done all I can for her so now it's just wait and see. I gave her a bath (with pot and medium) of Physan solution last night, hydrogen peroxide and cinammon. This morning I gave her a heavy spray of more Physan, and more of the other 2 things I mentioned. If and when I start to see more bacterial spread, I'll cut.

I'll post it's progress when there is some.

Thanks again.

[kmarch]

I'd refer to all 4 pics in post #53 as Harlequin Phals. I remember about 6-7 years ago these started showing up at orchid shows and since then it seems their availability, popularity, and quality has gone steadily up.

[sandra]

Gone but not forgotten...


This morning I noticed the bacteria was spreading. I removed the larger, older leaf and the one of the 2 new upper leaf's immediately came away from the stem. It had bacteria spots on it too.

pikevi, I took the root ball and potted it like you did with your Phal. It has 2 roots growing. As well, I took the one leaf that was still attached to the stem and potted it separately. I know, ridiculous but since I don't know that it's impossible, I thought I'd give it a shot, why not? Of course, I cut away whatever bacteria I noticed and treated it with all the good stuff.

Thank you to everyone who helped me here!

[Vivienne]

Sandra - how sad. It sounds like you've done everything you could for Harlequin. Perhaps your last ditch efforts will result in a new plant. My fingers are crossed.

[sandra]

Originally Posted by Vivienne

Sandra - how sad. It sounds like you've done everything you could for Harlequin. Perhaps your last ditch efforts will result in a new plant. My fingers are crossed.

Thanks Vivienne. I'm 'almost' relieved that it's over but want to replace it asap! I'm on the hunt...

[NancyG]

Sandra,

Sorry to hear about your beautiful phal. That is the same thing that happened to mine. The same spot and everything. It happened so fast! Mine wasn't planted low in the clay pellets either. Maybe phals just can't take s/h or too much water or ????

good luck with the rest
NancyG

[Tobi]

Sandra,
Sorry to hear that it continued to spread. This whole sernario of how it got
started is still bugging me. When you water, are you using chlorinated tap
water or rain water or some other type? I know this might be stretching
reasons a bit, but just considering a high colonization of one or the other
dreaded 3 bacteria that can cause rot present in the water. Since Pseudomonas,
Xanthomonas and Erwina (all 3 can cause bacterial rot) are all normal soil
inhabitants that are quite frequently found in water, I was wondering if
they were present in the water. If you use chlorinated tap water, I wouldn't
expect this, but any other non-chlorinated water that had been standing
around, especially in higher temps could become infected with any of these
bacteria. This is just a wild hypothesis, but trying to find a reason.

[sandra]

Nancy, thanks for your post. I remember you losing your Phal. just recently. Mine wasn't in s/h with a reservoir. I was using the Hydroton to get the plant over the hump so-to-speak; it suffered root rot and I was nursing it back to health....just call me Nurse Ratched! But speaking of s/h, I don't believe Phals. do well in it. Moisture getting trapped is just too easy. I think the traditional mixes work best for them.

Very odd the way things happen though because an hour after I buried this Phal., I received an email from a nursery in Homestead telling me they had the exact same one and it's in spike. I spoke with them just before and it's now on it's way to me.

Exactly what I learned, I'm still not sure except that you can never be too careful with Phals.

[NancyG]

Tobi,

I was thinking that is what happened to my phal. I usually mix up my worm tea solution in a large sprinkling can and then it may stay outside for up to a week. It is under our veranda in the backyard but still it is just sitting there. I noticed some kind of growth in my sprayer so I am being very careful with that. So you think it could be the standing water. I could bring the solution inside. Do you think that could prevent further episodes like this?

It would be interresting to see if Jerry M. leaves his worm tea solution outside. Being a grower in Florida I wonder if he just makes enough at a time and it doesn't sit around.

NancyG

[sandra]

Originally Posted by Tobi

Sandra,
but any other non-chlorinated water that had been standing
around, especially in higher temps could become infected with any of these
bacteria. This is just a wild hypothesis, but trying to find a reason.

Now, that's a scary thought Tobi. I fill 4 gallon containers of water every week and let them stand at least 24 hours but usually 48 hrs. I get it from the kitchen sink....uh oh! I water all my orchids from there. Can you hear my heart beating faster?

[sandra]

Tobi, one more obvious thing....it's never anything other than hot here in Fla. and I keep the water out on the patio where it's a zillion degrees in summer. The weather has cooled off considerably now but now you've got me thinking...a good thing!

[sandra]

Nancy, I leave the whole gallon of worm tea on my (very hot) patio....gulp.

[Tobi]

Okay, I don't want to start a panic here. I'm not sure that this is a probability. I just am trying to reason this out with a possible explanation.
Anytime you're dealing with non-chlorinated water that has been sitting
around for a while, there is a chance of bacterial contamination which could
multiply under the right circumstances. I keep my distilled water in a closed
container and my worm tea in a bottle with the cap loose inside my house
at room temp.

[pikevi]

I am sorry about the orchid, sandra. You still have some hope with the 'remains' of it since you have planted it. Just keep it moist. I am attaching a couple of photos of another 'almost dead' Phal. Wedding Promenade which had no leaves but had the one flower stalk and which was planted with a healthy one in the same pot. I potted this about 7 weeks ago and today I found that it is producing a keiki ( no growth from the bottom though).

It could well be a sub-spike though I doubt that it can produce a sub-spike without any leaves

I potted it because it had some roots and the stalk was hard and green.

It turned out to be a real survivor.

Your Phal's infection seems too rapid. But usually a bacterium can reproduce itself in 15-30 minutes, each. That would mean the number will increase exponentially.

Tobi: You may have a better handle on the Pseudomonas infection on plants.
When Pseudomonas infections occur in humans it is usually when the numbers of other bacteria are depleted, say after a specific antibiotic ( narrow spectrum) is given to an unrelated illness. Pseudomonas muliplies to fill the 'void' , so to speak. So I am wondering if sandra had killed other 'soil' bacteria by whatever measures she took to care for the orchid and the Pseudomonas multiplied uncontrollably since it did not have any other competition?

Is Pseudomonas an opportunistic invader in plants too?

Thanks.

[sandra]

pikevi, last month I bought a Harlequin in bloom, very heavy blotches, the tag read, "Wedding Promenade" also. (My deceased Phal here was also tagged, WP). Anyway, when I got it home and went to repot it, I uncovered one Phal with no spike and one spike (in bloom), with no leaves, 2 separate plants (or 1 and 1/2 plants?). I ended up returning the plant because I had no way of knowing what kind of Phal the unbloomed one was. The spike was attached to a full root ball, filled with roots and I somewhat regretted returning it, the flowers were beautiful. If you weren't so far away from me, I'd swear you got my plant, lol! You are the keiki man pikevi, one right after the other. The way you've been growing, you'll probably have a bloomed plant from this next summer!

Actually, I'm not sure if the bacterial infection was considered rapid. It was just more noticeable when I pulled the bottom leaf slightly away from the stem and the rest....well, it was "besheart", meaning, meant to be. And from all I gathered, unless I was able to cut it out and remove it, there would be less probability of growing it as healthy. Am I correct here to assume this, that even if I was able to contain it and stop it from spreading, it was still there and eventually would not be contained, no matter what effort I applied? I'm still in the dark with that question.

But on a good note, I found exactly the same Phal today, one hour after I laid my sick one to rest. Very strange how that happened. I was looking for another one over the weekend and wrote to a nursery in South Florida who got back to me this morning and told me they had one, 1 hour after the demise. It's on it's way right now! In spike, 13 cm pot.

Originally Posted by pikevi

Tobi: You may have a better handle on the Pseudomonas infection on plants.
When Pseudomonas infections occur in humans it is usually when the numbers of other bacteria are depleted, say after a specific antibiotic ( narrow spectrum) is given to an unrelated illness. Pseudomonas muliplies to fill the 'void' , so to speak. So I am wondering if sandra had killed other 'soil' bacteria by whatever measures she took to care for the orchid and the Pseudomonas multiplied uncontrollably since it did not have any other competition?
Is Pseudomonas an opportunistic invader in plants too? Thanks.

I'd be most interested in understanding what this exactly means so I might prevent something I probably caused this time from happening again.

pikevi, thanks for sticking by me with this and guiding me!

[pikevi]

sandra: What I meant by it is that bacteria are found everywhere and they usually don't cause any problems to people or animals, and I assume to plants too. They are kept at a natural balance by many factors but any one of the numerous species present could cause havoc if it gets an upper hand resulting in an infection or invasion. In addition all living things have some defense mechanism to ward off any attack from these bacteria.

Occasionally when the balance tips in favour of one species they multiply very rapidly and invade the host (or 'living thing'), overcoming their resistance by their sheer number and /or toxins.

In your case I was thinking if the care you gave the plant somehow eliminated many other bacteria and one or more of the bacteria that Tobi listed,Pseudomonas or Xanthomonas or Erwinia(and ,perhaps,Corynebacterium) took over and caused the rot.

It happens very often in animals and humans. I am not sure about plants.

The lesson may be that we should not try to be 'super-clean' with our plants But it is a stretch

I really don't know!

[sandra]

I've got a new research project now pikevi. This should all prove very interesting and educational. I think it's time to visit the public library tomorrow.

Thank you for simplifying!

[pikevi]

LOL... have a great time at the library!!

I am sure you can get much information from the 'net. No hassle, no travel and just in a cozy little room at home

[sandra]

Originally Posted by pikevi

LOL... have a great time at the library!!

I am sure you can get much information from the 'net. No hassle, no travel and just in a cozy little room at home

Would you believe I graduated top 5 in my class at my university? You wouldn't....lol! Well, I did. I was a book worm in my youth and even at 32 when I went back to study law....face in the books....I loved it! The last time I set foot in a library was to return all the books my father had read after he passed away. I miss going...yup, I'm going tomorrow!

[sandra]

Originally Posted by sandra

The last time I set foot in a library was to return all the books my father had read after he passed away.

I just read this line back to myself and just to clarify.....No, my father didn't read the books after he passed away. But you know what I meant.
....and sometimes I'm also a dumb-bunny.

[pikevi]

I am sure you were one of the top students.

Don't you feel that internet, with all the forums , chats and info cuts into our reading habit?

BTW, I just mentally inserted a comma after 'dead' and read along
It was clear enough.

If I had set aside a penny for every mistake I made in writing I will be very rich!!