crown rot treatment?

[sandra]

I have a Phal that lost all it's roots about 1&1/2 months ago. I took the advice of a nursery who grows mostly Phals who told me to pot it up in Hydroton, a little sphag. along the parameter of the pot and to water every 3 days. The plant ended up losing all but one leaf but grew 2 new ones with another on it's way. As well, 2 new, big fat healthy roots are growing. All looks well but this morning I noticed the crown, along one side has turned jet black? I did a search here and majority ruled that most people agree to treat this with hydrogen peroxide, which I did. How much peroxide should I use? How often? And is this necessarily indicative of crown rot? The plant seems to be healthy? I'll post a pic in a while but in the meantime, any advice?

P.S. It's my favorite Phal. (my avatar)

[Tobi]

Sandra,
Here's a short link for treatment with hydrogen peroxide.

Orchid Growing Tips #11 - Orchids - 19k

P.S. Love the avatar. Great looking Phal.

[sandra]

Originally Posted by Tobi

Sandra,
Here's a short link for treatment with hydrogen peroxide.

Orchid Growing Tips #11 - Orchids - 19k

P.S. Love the avatar. Great looking Phal.

Tobi, thanks so much for this link. I'll go give it a bit more than I did. I'm just a little doubtful that if it isn't crown rot, could the hydrogen peroxide adversely affect the plant? And if it isn't crown rot, what else could it possibly be?

[Tobi]

I doubt it would hurt even if it's not crown rot. But if it's black, good chance
it's bacterial.

[pikevi]

Sandra: I am sorry to hear about the rot.

I believe you would have gotten the H2O2 from a drugstore( i.e. not a commercial brand). It will be probably 3% H2O2. Quite safe to use it on plants. I believe it is safe because it can be and has been used on open wounds. ( half that dilution is still better)

The link Tobi gave also suggests that you can just 'pour' it into the rot. And I think she is talking about the same strength as well in that article.

Hope you can save it or as the URL says get a keiki.

I saw one like that here, which I subsequently found out to be known as Harlequin orchid-thanks to kmarch- but I did not buy it since it was priced at $30 or so. I really liked it.

Later on I bought about 16 'end-of-bloom' Phals from the same store and I am hoping beyond hope that beauty will be amongst the batch

Good luck.

[sandra]

Thanks again Tobi and thanks pikevi. So sad here..... I'm going to go treat it now. All may not be lost.

[WIB]

Pikevi: When you say "half that dilution" do you mean 6 percent or 1.5 percent? -- Bill

[pikevi]

WIB: 1.5%

water:H2O2(drugstore)= 1:1

H2O2 is quite harmles to tissues since it degrades into water and oxygen right away. But in certain situations the intial contact, however short the exposure is, with sensitised cells is thought to delay the healing process. No great harm done even if it is used in a higher concentration than 3%.

Cleaning the normal skin is not a problem and orchids with a relatively hardier outer layer (cuticle?) will be much more resistant to irritation, I assume.

[WIB]

Pikevi: So, orchids 3 percent, grandchildren 1.5 percent. Gotcha. Thanks. - B

[sandra]

Here's a pic. I unpotted it and cleaned it with the hydrogen peroxide. There was a thick outer layer of something, not sure what it's called but it softened after the application and it easily came away from the plant. I think I'm hoping against hope though. Any advice besides kiss it goodbye?

[mayres]

Sandra - that is a major bummer. I had a work friend bring me her orchid with a black center as well - she had already killed four phals and was noticing that her fifth was not looking healthy. Of course there is nothing in orchid care tags that tells people who purchase them not let water set in the crowns late in the day or otherwise not adequately dry (through air movement, temp, etc.). She was misting the plant regularly and getting the crown wet. I immediately removed two spikes, repotted, and placed keiki paste on the lower nodes. Now we pray that either a basal keiki or spike keiki will form! Good luck to you and yours - those are really nice flowers - would be a shame to loose it.
Oh my - I just noted that you posted a pic after I posted. That does NOT look good! I hope I am 100% wrong, but that looks like bad news. Crown rot I have seen usually starts in the very center of the phal, not at the base of the next to last leaf like that. mike

[sandra]

Mike, this plant started with root rot. I immediately took all measures and it was growing well...it lost it's original 2 out of 3 leaves, grew 2 more leaves (and one now growing), has 2 healthy roots. This black spot all of a sudden appeared overnight. There were never any signs of crown rot, no black spots, nothing. It was coming along just fine and now, this! I was extremely careful and am with all my Phals not to get any moisture whatsoever anywhere near the crown. I water all of them with a measuring cup because of the spout and am soooooooooo careful. But with all this said, crown rot which is what I think this is, is caused by mositure getting trapped so, as careful as I thought I was, wasn't careful enough! OK, I'm bummed out now Mike!

[pikevi]

sandra: Has the blackened area gone through the thickness of the leaf? Has it spread to the other leaf on the right of the picture?

If it has I 'd think it is better to remove the left leaf (the infected one) so that the right one will be 'exposed' to air/oxygen. Check with mayres or kmarch or jerrymeola before you do that . I am only looking at how suitable the environment will be for bacterial proliferation. Tobi can shed more light on this aspect.

I hope someone will tell you of a decisive step to take.

If it is me I will remove it or at least bend it as far as I can to expose the base of the 'good' leaf.

But I lack the experience to give you a definite reply. Sorry.

Good luck.

[sandra]

pikevi, the black is contained solely on the base, not on any of the leaves. This is so sad. I thought I was headed for a happy ending with Ms. Harlequin.

[pikevi]

I think you still have a chance of reviving it ( Ignorance is bliss?), since you say the other two leaves are OK.

I magnified that area and it seems it is definitely bacterial. I feel very uneasy about leaving that black area intact especially since it is too extensive and is in constant contact with the base ( more vulnerable) of the good leaf.

I hope Tobi will come to the aid and tell you if it is OK to leave it there.

The appearence does not really conform to the description of a crown rot as far as I understood it. May be there are different forms of crown rot.

I hope the plant is in isolation.

[mayres]

Hi Sandra -
My two cents worth - "IF" and I do mean "IF" you can remove the blackened area of the plant without destroying what is left of it I would do so immediately. Otherwise I'm afraid it will overtake the entire plant. It is hard to tell from the pic - if you can take a sharp sterile razer blade or knife and cut it off/out without doing in the plant or not?

[Tobi]

Sandra,
It doesn't look really good. It depends on how much damage the bacteria
has done to the tissue of the plant. The bacteria Pseudomonas is usually
the main culprit in crown rot of Phals. Continue with the hydrogen peroxide
treatment and sprinkle with cinnamon to help eradicate any fungal infestation.
If you can get some Physan 20, you can try that as well, It has been known
to kill bacteria and fungus as well. Once again, it depends on how much
tissue damage the plant has acquired. Hope you can save your 'chid. Time
will tell.

[sandra]

Originally Posted by mayres

Hi Sandra -
My two cents worth - "IF" and I do mean "IF" you can remove the blackened area of the plant without destroying what is left of it I would do so immediately. Otherwise I'm afraid it will overtake the entire plant. It is hard to tell from the pic - if you can take a sharp sterile razer blade or knife and cut it off/out without doing in the plant or not?

I'm afraid I can't Mike. The base it tiny as it virtually started over when it grew those top leaves. It's a gonner, I know, I've been in denial but it can't be any more obvious than anything else but death now. I just wish I knew if anything else could have caused this so I can prevent it in the future if it wasn't trapped moisture that caused this. Is it possible that the hydrogren peroxide can stop the spread and just maybe, the plant will continue on and remain discolored? I'm in denial, huh?

[sandra]

pikevi, I'm just now seeing this post. You've given me hope. Thank you. I definitely cannot remove the black as the base where it's on is quite tiny and the slightest cutting, I'm afraid, will go right through to the other side...there's not enough meat on it but, I won't give up just yet.

Originally Posted by pikevi

I think you still have a chance of reviving it ( Ignorance is bliss?), since you say the other two leaves are OK.

[sandra]

I'm so glad you responded here Tobi. Thank You. I have Physon 20...should I dilute or use full strength? Should I use all 3 - hydrogen peroxide, the Physon and cinammon? I know this is impending doom but just maybe?

Originally Posted by Tobi

Sandra,
It doesn't look really good. It depends on how much damage the bacteria
has done to the tissue of the plant. The bacteria Pseudomonas is usually
the main culprit in crown rot of Phals. Continue with the hydrogen peroxide
treatment and sprinkle with cinnamon to help eradicate any fungal infestation.
If you can get some Physan 20, you can try that as well, It has been known
to kill bacteria and fungus as well. Once again, it depends on how much
tissue damage the plant has acquired. Hope you can save your 'chid. Time
will tell.

[mayres]

"What can be learned from this experience to help in the future?" I have not grown phals in S/H before so am not qualified to answer, but I AM curious (always to learn! ) - is there any chance what caused this is having the plant too deeply in the pellets to where this portion of the plant never dried out?