Poll: Collecting Orchids From the Wild

[janet_a]

exactly. i know someone who thinks bulbos are just the coolest things *evar*.

i think they're kind of weird looking, ugly when they're out of bloom, and they smell bad.

but that's just me

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by janet_a

i think [bulbos a]re kind of weird looking, ugly when they're out of bloom, and they smell bad.

This is exactly why I say "beautiful" and "awardable" are not the same. "Beautiful" is subjective and differs dramatically form person to person. "Awardable" is objective (mostly) and is not subject to a judges personal taste, but rather to a set of measurable, objective criteria.

[janet_a]

this is the case in any judged sport/competition/art/etc. just look at what judges consider a champion western pleasure horse these days; many horse ppl, who think horses should look/perform like--- horses, are horrified at what some breeders/trainers are doing. and don't even get me started on saddleseat or certain disciplines of TWH.

but i guess it's a matter of "teaching to the test." if you [generic you] want to get awards on your orchids, you're going to try for plants that the judges like, which may not be what *you* like.

some ppl like ribbons, some of us like pretty flowers.

[Orchidflowerchild]

Originally Posted by kmarch

Just to throw another iron in the fire....i know lots of folks who grow certain types of orchids becuause they are interesting. They may not be colourful or showy or even appealing to some, but they are fascinating plants or flowers....now how does that come into it?

Hehe...one of my favourite plants ever was Masd. (now Buccella) ophioglossa. Tiny tiny flowers in muted green and translucent white, but it was constantly in bloom, very tolerant of a wide variety of conditions, and it had a lovely citrus scent. Perhaps highly insognificant next to a show-bench complex Cattleya hybrid, but it was in my top ten favourite plants.

Orchid showing is nothing more than being a horticultural pageant mom. In the end, however, unless you are a serious exhibitor or breeder, orchid judging is just a fringe thing. One's personal collection should just reflect one's personal choice. If your tastes happen to agree with judging trends, bully for you. For me, I'd rather have a satisfying collection of interesting species than a hundred award-quality plants, myself.

Heck, if nothing else, think how sick you feel when you DO have an awarded or award-quality plant and the dang thing dies or gets stolen before you have a chance to divide or mericlone it... I had a Paph and a Doritis that were both awarded and both of them died, just the same, when the entire collection froze. I also once had a beautiful yellow Bro. sanguinea that was easily an AM/AOS quality flower and the damn mealy bugs ate it!

-Cj

[tom499]

The points raised on extreme breeding in dogs, horses and orchids are pretty much the reason why I hate it all. Messing around with dogs ears and such to fit a requirement on a judging form, forcing horses round a track then shooting those that are too slow or break a leg, I think is quite frankly sick and horrible =/

As for orchids, again the points are made here, the aesthetic value is different with everyone, why does one person have more authority than others? The only way to do it is measure beauty by scientific measurements of symmetry, length and colour, all things we will feel different about anyway.

[Aleksa]

Originally Posted by gore42

Aleska, are you really from Montenegro, or is that a Nero Wolfe joke? He was the Private Investigator (by Rex Stout) who had 10,000 orchids in his greenhouse on top of his old brownstone in NY... and he was from Montenegro.

- Matt

Wow... I have never heard for him... I'm really from Montenegro, no joke...

[PhalPal]

Tom I totally agree with your point on mutilating dogs for a fashion statement. Who comes up with these ideas like cropped ears??

I can tell you know very little about racehorses. They are born to fly and believe me, nobody forces a thoroughbred to run! They love it and live for their morning workouts. 'Slow' horses are not shot, but re-assigned to a different job that doesn't require as much speed. They are many jobs a horse can have, jumping being one.

Now as far as broken legs, it's the reason why I left racing. These horses are incredibly valuable (monetarily) and loved (emotionally) by their handlers, but sometimes they just cannot be saved and are euthanized. (not shot) It's absolutely heartbreaking and not taken lightly by those making this difficult decision. If possible, horses are always saved.

[kmarch]

Is there any chance this discussion could take place without being pretentiously and openly insulting to those of us who judge and show orchids?

[Orchidflowerchild]

Originally Posted by kmarch

Is there any chance this discussion could take place without being pretentiously and openly insulting to those of us who judge and show orchids?

Goodness, I hope I didn't come off as insulting... I myself am very interested in judging and exhibition (eventally, I'll attach myself to a JC again and become a student), I just mean, if it came down to a greenhouse full of awards that didn't strike my fancy or a greenhouse full of mediocre specimens, I'd opt for mediocre and happy. I guess my point was that awards and judging and all are fantastic, but nobody should really feel that there is some pressure from the judging community to make all hobbyists conform to some standard of beauty.

Some folks like beauty queens, and they watch the Miss America Pageant (or judge it, or host it, and get to sing that silly song), while others just like the girl next door.

In re-reading my post I can see where one might find it rather judgmental (heh...irony), but I certainly didn't mean to sound so.

-Cj

[tom499]

I guess I may have been abit hot headed during my reply and i apologise, but this is a discussion afterall, where everyone has an equal view

[gore42]

Kevin,

I think that many of us have a great deal of respect for orchid judges (at least I do); their knowledge of the standards, of the plants, and their ability to judge according to the standards rather than their own personal tastes and prejudices, and their dedication to the job are all very admirable.

I don't think that there is any contradiction involved in admiring judges but disagreeing with the judging standards, though (which I also do). But that is a topic for another discussion.

In any case, no personal offense was intended!

As Ever,
Matthew Gore

[PhalPal]

Gee....I hope I didn't say anything insulting; if so, it was not intended.

'Judging' in any capacity comes down to what is trendy or seen as the challenge of the times. (i.e. clear yellow phals, the elusive black orchid) I just adore my Golden Retrievers and wouldn't have any other type of dog. Not because I don't LIKE other dogs, but simply because they fit into my lifestyle best. No different for the orchids I choose to grow. ALL are interesting or beautiful yet not a good fit for me.

My point is, if you want to win best in show at Westminister, get a toy poodle. Some show dog owners will dash out and buy the most expensive poodle they can find, because that is what the judges are awarding. There is nothing wrong with that, ESPECIALLY if they are making a living at it like many of our forum members. A Golden will never win BOS because they are considered too 'common'. Me, I'm sticking with my Goldens and phals and it doesn't bother me how common they may be!

[WIB]

My "maybe" answer to this question was a result of its being ambiguously worded. In my view, it would never by all right for me personally to collect a species orchid from the wild. On the other hand, if the environment were threatened and a responsible conservation group were to collect the orchid, I think that would be laudable. I can imagine extraordinary circumstances in which I might think it acceptable, or imperative, for me to salvage a plant, but I would feel some obligation to entrust it then to a responsible party. I don't imagine that my personally owning a plant would anything to save the species. The question didn't make distinctions about who is doing the collecting.

[janet_a]

well, but who gets to set the criteria of what's awardable in an orchid? is bigger always better? it seems to me (and i speak only from looking at pictures of awarded plants) that judges are looking for more and larger flowers all the time. does that mean the plant itself is better? are those plants stronger, hardier, longer-lived? or is the criteria "more and bigger flowers, right now when the judge is looking at it"? because as mentioned above, *those* are the plants that get cloned and spread all over the place.

and of course, none of this applies to CCM's, which are pretty much for the grower and not the actual plant.

and i certainly wasn't trying to insult anyone; if you (again, generic you) like to show plants, great! if you're a judge, even better! if you just like to grow plants on your windowsill and have your neighbors say "hey, cool plant" that's fine too.

[mbasden]

I voted against any collection. Because we should work toward conserving these places instead of collecting and allowing people to destroy the habitat where these flowers came from If we work harder to this end it would benefit all in the end. If we collect from the wild, anything it seems to give people the understanding that our environment is expendable.

[WIB]

I agree with Kevin that "interesting" is an important part of the whole addiction/appreciation/infatuation. I can get fascinated by watching what the damned things do, and since they're not in bloom a lot of the time, that has to be the reward they offer. Watching roots take hold a mount gives me great pleasure. My little Platystele umbellata is hardly beautiful (at least to my aged eyes), but it is cute as a button. Watching the spur take a week or so to unfold from the Angraecum elephantinum was a lot better than watching the paint dry. Waiting for the nighttime fragrance of Lemon Pledge coming from the Brassavola 'David Sander' is almost (but not quite) as pleasurable as seeing the blossom backlighted against a dark wall. -- Bill

[patticake]

Originally Posted by eldone

Years ago when I was a kid I knew of a spot in the woods that had about 20 wild pink lady slippers. I was sick when that area was "developed" and all of the lady slippers were bulldozed out.

I believe that it could be tightly regulated to just the areas that are being
"developed" which will help control the amount taken from the wild. I recognize that this would not help much in some countries. In these cases there probably is not much that can be done other than policing ourselves.

I agree with eldone- When I was little, my mother took me into the woods to see the wild lady slippers, trilliums and jack-in-the pulpits. She told me to never take plants like these from their natural home. Years later, I wanted to show these to my children, and when we drove to where they had been, there was a shopping center! I was so sad... I wish I could have saved them.