Keiki or Subspike? What do you think?

[mayres]

I have a phal that I have discussed on a couple previous threads - with a center spike. It came out of the center of my plant last fall and bloomed for at least six months and wouldn't stop blooming, so I finally just cut the flowers off - for in this case what I want is a keiki NOT flowers, otherwise I will loose this plant - which I have emotional ties to. Anyway, a week or so ago the top node has started to bulge and something is making an appearance. What do you think from the pics? Keiki or subspike???? I'll update in a few weeks and see if you guessed correctly!

[Vivienne]

I'm going to go with 'too soon to tell'... but my fingers are crossed for you that it is a keiki.

[kmarch]

I'm gonna be brave and say I think its a secondary spike coming.

[Anton]

I'm with Vivienne here.

[BillC]

Mike, however it turns out, please keep us posted on the end product.

Bill

[Anton]

Well, I have found a similar thing on my Phal pulchra. I only found it tonight after checking in the GH AS I do when I get home from work.

There a bud of some description on the tip and a new bud on the stem. It only stopped flowering last month.

A disclaimer:
I know they are not sharp, but at maximum close up and hand held due to the positioning of the stem in the middle of the plant, I am more than pleased with the end result. So there !

[kmarch]

Anton, I think oyu have some of both. I think the first 3 are new buds coming but the last 2 I bet will be keikis.

[Anton]

I'll keep you posted.

I have never seen a bud on the end of a cut off stem before. Hmm interesting.

[Summerglow]

Hi Anton,
WHat did you do to "stimulate" a keikis in your plant?
ANy advice?
THank you.

[janet_a]

i think mike's got a spike and anton at least some keiki's (just because pulchra supposedly throws lots of keiki's). but yes do keep us apprised.

[arleneg]

My guesses are:

Mike -- It looks like a new spike/bud.

Anton -- It looks like new keikis for you.

Do I get a prize if I have guessed correctly?

Please update us in a few weeks.

[Anton]

Dang ! I have already taken off 3 keikis from it which are propogating well, don't want any more.

Summerglow it JUST happens with this plant, doesn't need any form of encouragement.

[mayres]

I have heard that the biggest influence is genetics - if you have it you have it - if you don't you don't - sound's like Anton's plant just naturally puts out ton's of keikis. I heard of other specific types of phals doing this same thing. Wish someone would have "wished" one for me! Hmmmm. Well, I'm not giving up just yet. If it is a subspike I will have to cut it off again - maybe down to the next node, and see what happens again.............

[Anton]

Like you Mike I'll do the same, as the surgeons at work say, "If in doubt, cut it out!"

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by Anton

Dang ! I have already taken off 3 keikis from it which are propogating well, don't want any more.

Summerglow it JUST happens with this plant, doesn't need any form of encouragement.

As someone said in an earlier thread, pulcra (and several other Phal species, throw keikis a lot. Some folks just let them go, don't bother to remove them and they'll eventually mature to the point where they'll spike. I saw this once on a big stock plant at a nursery, a big plant with about 5 spikes, about 5 keikis, I think 3 of the keikis were in spike, some with flowers. It was a sight. If you get too many pulcra pups you could always sell them off for $5 or $10 each and use the procedes to fund your habit...er...offset other costs.

[Anton]

Already started that Kevin, hence the potted keikis I already have.

[Summerglow]

HI Anton,
Looks like you are real lucky. How I wish my phal grow keikis like yours..

[tizzycat]

I hope they turn out to be what you both want them to be!

[mayres]

Here is the same spike a few days later. Anyone think keiki yet? Please............Pretty please........

[Anton]

Not yet,......... you expectant grower.

[kmarch]

Sorry...I'm more firmly of the belief that its a spike....sorry...

[Anton]

Mike, maybe we should swap plants, you want keikis, I want spikes.

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

Removing unwanted keikis on Dendrobiums at the earliest possible time, just as soon as I am sure they are keikis and not blooms, is just one of those regular chores I have to keep things growing the way I want them to. Just like going around regularly and making sure the Catt growths are growing vertically.

[janet_a]

Originally Posted by mayres

Here is the same spike a few days later. Anyone think keiki yet? Please............Pretty please........

hmm, i still think spike....

[sandra]

2 weeks later.....

So Mike, what's the verdict on this...keiki or spike?

[mayres]

I'll try to remember to post a photo tonight. Bummer. It is a spike about an inch long or more last time I looked. After taking a pic I think I will cut the main spike down to the next node and try again (with fingers crossed!).

[19419n]

it is my understanding that when you get a terminal spike that the plant will stop blooming but will not die. from there you would get a basal keikei. dont quote me but i believe that is what should happen with a terminal spike

[mayres]

I'm hoping for ANY kind of keiki! The hybridizer of this particular orchid tells me that it has parents in its ancestry that commonly have spike keiki's so I'm hoping for one to appear - but a basal keiki would be just as good. I have had a crown-less plant form a basal keiki in the past so will be looking for one of those as well.

[mayres]

After stewing for awhile on this plant I ordered some keiki paste from a local supplier on Thursday night late (it arrived Saturday by mail!). This morning contemplated which node(s) I should use for my paste? Pick one on the original spike or try one on the new subspike? Rightly or wrongly I picked two on the subspike, since this has the most recent active growth. I cut off the end and removed the outer covering from the nodes and applied the paste with a toothpick - it is a slightly creamy colored paste looking not unlike vaseline - just a little creamier perhaps. Anyone, pics attached of before and after. Next I put the plant in the closet - will check it in 7-10 days and see if anything is happening and let you all know.
Pics of how the spike looked before and after the application below - sorry not the best focus.
Here is also a writeup concerning the paste on the suppliers website for your information (chulaorchids.com) that I thought was an interesting read.

Keiki Paste just in, 5mg tubes, good for about 200 applications. Just keep this stuff cool in the fridge until you want to use it. There is a small picture included on how to apply to Phal buds. The manufacturer says to get the buds to start put this on, then keep the plant in a dark place for about seven days. A closet will work!! Don't ask me why, but it works good that way!

Two things can happen when you use this paste on the phal node.

A new growth will begin, but always hard to tell if it will be a new bloom spike, or, the new plant you are looking for. It's natural for the plant to start new branching bloom spikes from these nodes and most will. The suggestion from the manufacturer of the keiki paste said if you want to make sure it starts quick and becomes a new plant, he suggests keep in in a dark place for about 10 to 14 days. Not shady, DARK!! Like a closet or cupboard. Yes you still have to make sure it's watered right, and I used to put them in a plastic bag for that time in the dark to keep the humidity up around them because in the closet it is NOT humid, (my closets anyway) So they were completely out of the greenhouse for this period of time.

In the old days, back in the 1960's, a gardener, not an orchid grower, who was pretty savy about everything part of growing any plants, laughed at the use of the paste. He said if he wanted more plants from a particular phal he would just stick one of those giant screwdrivers down in the crown of the plant and destroy the crown. Leave it sit for a bit with the same watering as you used to do, maybe just a tad more to the dry side. In a few weeks you will see other small plants that will start around the base of the one you virtually killed! And there you have your new keiki's. If you keep this original plant it may start five or more new plants for you, maybe not all at the same time, but successively.

Well, I had to take his word for this because I never had the nerve to drive that screwdrive into one, but I have noticed many times, when I accidentally rotted a phal out at the crown, if I kept them around on the bench they would definitely start new plants around the bottom of the original. I didn't give a lot of them a chance because it looks pretty gruesome with a bunch of totally dead looking plants sitting in the greenhouse. What would people think, LOL.

Suggestion -

Now, let me explain something here tho to all the beginners out there. This is NOT the way to make a whole bunch of plants. Professional growers may use it to make a couple of duplicates of some fantastic plant they do not want to go to the expense now of merstemming or perhaps are in danger of losing. It's rarely fun, for a hobbyisst this process may well take over two years to get a keiki with roots that can be safely taken off the plant.

So if you an your friend are both going to use it on plants you purchased at Home Depot so you can "share", i suggest you forget it. You will be way better off to just go purchase another small plant or purchase phal seedling from some catalog. Don't waste you time on this Keiki process. It will be much more costly in time and effort than purchasing another fine seedling will ever be. You will have a two year head start on anything you may get using keiki paste. If anything you have receives an FCC from the American Orchid Society, by all means, use the keiki paste to reproduce that for your buddies, otherwise leave this keiki paste to the professionals.

[tom499]

interesting stuff, I've never tried to keikei a phal, I've got too many already, but I am rather pleased with my den. keikei's.

The mini den. thing has given me two, and within a month of planting one has two new stems emerging with leaves. For free, keikeis are pretty goood

You'll have to keep us informed with your progress with the phals, it would be good to see how fast it happens.

[sandra]

Fingers crossed for that keiki Mike. I'll be looking for updates from you.

[Sea_Sun88]

Looks like a new spike. But I could be wrong.

[mayres]

Well, it has been two weeks since I cut off the end of the subspike and applied keiki paste to the two nodes. One of the nodes now has a significant swelling. I took the plant out of the closet this morning to water and am trying to decide if I should put it back into the closet or leave it out in the light now? What think ye?
Here is the node......

[arleneg]

Mike,

That looks like a keiki.

[tizzycat]

I'm no expert, but I agree ....... keiki

[sandra]

Haven't a clue but keeping all fingers crossed for you.

[slippery_biscuit]

Ive got a phal (first orchid!) a couple of year ago from Costco. It turn out to be quite the bloomer. I think it is finally done. It has had a sub spike on a sub spike on a sub spike on the primary spike and now the spikes (and the plant) look pretty well spent.

I think I'll try the screwdriver propagation technique. Any more specifics on the tool insertion?

[new_keiki]

Actually, I read somewhere that if the plant gets light it's more probable to grow a spike, if it's put in a low light location it's more probable to grow a keiki. I don't know if this is truly the case but I'm putting mine on the window sill

[Tobi]

new keiki,
I don't know how true that is because I have my Dendrobiums in the south
windows of my room with UV sheltered blinds and they produce just
as many keikis as they do spikes. Unless this is in reference to Phals.

[mayres]

Slippery - I hope you are just kidding about the screwdriver technique? I don't think I could do that.........

[pikevi]

I noticed one of my ,hopefully, mini Phals. has a something growing just like that of mayres's.

I am not sure if it is a subspike or a keiki.

I bought this Phal . without any flowers or an ID about two months ago. The leaves looked small and I hoped it would be a mini Phal. I left the floral spike intact and this morning I found something growing on it.

Any ideas?

new_keiki: I am not sure if your theory is right or wrong but these Phal are all outside with plenty of light.

[PhalPal]

Looks like a subspike to me. That's my guess and I'm sticking to it.

[mayres]

It looks to me like my keiki paste just sped up the process of making a sub-subspike. Aaaaarrrrrgh. I will let it go another week or so but looks like another flower spike to me. This plant wants to keep flowering so bad! My next attempt might be to cut the original spike down to about 3-4 inches and apply the keiki paste there and see if it makes any difference? This poor plant has already spent the last three weeks in a closed closet though - I should probably let it see the light of day for a few weeks before I "spank" it and put it back in there?

[sandra]

Are you sure about this Mike? That tip looks as if it's forming a split which I don't recall ever seeing on a spike or sub-spike. All hope may not be lost. My fingers are still crossed.

[mayres]

Update of hoping for keiki...........
As you can see from the first picture - I ended up with a subspike growing on a subspike!
I cut off the spike and subspike and put keiki paste on the node located on the original spike. Here we go again! We'll see what happens THIS time!
If nothing else this thread is a documentation of what others might expect (frustration).
mike

[PhalPal]

Mike that is the strangest thing I have ever seen, although I usually don't make an attempt at subspikes. I am curious about the flowers it will produce. Keep us posted.

[mayres]

The saga continues............
After removing two subspikes that were obviously flower subspikes I put keiki paste on a lower node and started waiting again. The new growth started out much larger/fatter than before which initially gave me more hope that maybe I had a set of leaves developing this time (?). It has hence started lengthening - which is making me nervous that maybe I'm once again looking at a flower subspike? Bummers? I only have one more lower node that I can try keiki paste on - "if" it is still viable? Another curiosity - if you look closely at the base of the original central spike you will see a new growth! Now isn't that an interesting development - three options this time instead of two (?) - root, another central spike, leaves (not likely). What do you think? Is this plant EVER going to cooperate?

[pikevi]

I have had many growths like this which I hoped were keikis. Most of them turmed out to be sub-spikes. Just comparing yours with some of waht I ssaw it appears to be a sub-spike. But the 'segments' at the bottom of the top growth is a bit confusing.

I hope it turns out to be a keiki.

The one at the base COULD be a keiki. According to kmarch roots rarely grow from the crotch. I saw only one root coming from the axil out of about 30 Phals.

Good luck.

[digitalgate]

Originally Posted by mayres

The saga continues............
stead of two (?) - root, another central spike, leaves (not likely). What do you think? Is this plant EVER going to cooperate?

And the verdict is.... Double inflorescence ....

[sandra]

Originally Posted by pikevi

The one at the base COULD be a keiki. According to kmarch roots rarely grow from the crotch. I saw only one root coming from the axil out of about 30 Phals.

This is very encouraging. I hope, I hope, I hope.......

[slippery_biscuit]

You mentioned early in this thread you needed a keiki or you would loose (lose?) the plant. The keiki issue aside for a moment, from the pics you have posted the plant looks pretty healthy. Better than a couple of mine. Is it going to a different owner, perhaps?

[Aleksa]

I have never seen spike coming from the center of the phal!!!!

[mayres]

slippery - information I have received previously indicates that once a spike comes up from the center the crown of the plant is DONE/nonexistant, therefor the plant cannot continue long term without a new crown developing somewhere - be it basal keiki or spike keiki. I still have the same four leaves on the plant that existed when this phenomena occurred - but eventually the bottom leaves will yellow and fall off - ultimately leaving me with nothing.

[bellina9]

This is probably going to drive you nuts, but I think one of my favorite phal just put out a keiki! I"ll post a picture tomorrow.

Its been blooming since August when I bought it, and what I thought was a subspike has 2 little leaves and a third coming from the middle.

The only thing is, my plant looks healthy right now. It has 2 ariel roots that look healthy and are growing, and its not lost any leaves since I bought it. I've heard that Keikis will stress the plant. Do you think a "mid" size phal can handle 2 open flowers, 1 bud and 1 keiki? I dont want to lose my plant!

Also, I'm not expert by any means, but I have heard that the difference in a bud vs a keiki is light. I think if you wait and let the spike develop to where you are getting small buds and then put it in the closet for a week or 2, you have a better chance of getting keikis. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that once the spikes start to produce buds they stop growing... a change in plant hormones... THEN try the keiki paste ( which has hormones of some sort) and put the plant in the closet. I'm not sure if it makes since to the plant to have both sets of hormones at once (growing spikes and producing flowers/keikis).

Anyway thats what I think

[mayres]

I don't think most plants that produce keikis will stress at all in the process - it actually shows that they are healthy. To some degree genetics has a lot to do with how often your phal will produce a keiki - some naturally throw them out regularly and others are just plain stubborn and don't ever want to. I have a friend who had both mother and baby blooming together and both were super "happy". I've tried the "dark treatment" each time with this plant and so far it is not working. I'm not giving up though - eventually I plan on being hap-hap-happy like YOU. Enjoy your new "keiki".
PS - if you don't mind how about updating your profile to include where you live - we always find this helpful and interesting...... mike

[mayres]

Another week has gone by since my last pic of this plant and this is now what it looks like! What do you think I should do now - just let it bloom itself to death? Note the subspike on the old spike is already showing braching and the new spike in the crown is about 3/4" long!

[kmarch]

The plant looks healthy so I don't think lettign it bloom will put the plant in any danger. i've noticed some folks on the forum think blooming stresses a plant. I do not believe allowing a healthy plant to bloom is bad for the plant. Besides it is the season for a Phal to spike in the northern hemisphere so I don't see why it owuld be bad to let the plant to what it does naturally.

[mayres]

Kevin - my concern is that this plant has no viable crown left - so I wanted it to put its energy into making a keiki instead of flowers. My concern is that with no viable crown at some point the four 'old' leaves it has will start to turn yellow through the normal course of their life span - leaving me with nothing. So, that is why I say let it "bloom itself to death" versus doing some alternate activity (which so far has not worked) to encourage new "life".

[kmarch]

If your attempts to divert it's inclination have failed, i'd take that as a sign to let it do what it wants to do. It may keiki after it blooms. Also letting it bloom will give you more flower stem and therefore more nodes from which the plant may keiki.

[Nancy]

I was wondering how this phalaenopsis might handly itself in nature. To me it makes sense that it would be more likely to send up a keiki from that base of the plant. These plants don't give up easily, so I wouldn't give up hope just yet.

[sandra]

Mike, after this, you're down to one node, right? I would encourage you also to let it continue now with what's growing. It appears that it's not ready to die and it may be nature's way of surviving with the flower spikes eventually leading to better chances and more possibilities of producing keikis.

Think about it, what if this last node produces nothing as compared to what you've got now? Should have, would have, could have...

[robb]

mike: regarding your crown spike, perhaps if you allow the crown spike to go up to a few nodes, then cut the budding tip off, and apply keiki paste there, maybe you will get something desirable? I certainly know next to nothing about orchids but it seems to me a spike in the crown (thereby effectively killing the plant) is a last ditch attempt to get itself spread around the neighbourhood (via pollenation as the primary, desirable method) if the flowering is not an available option to the plant, perhaps it will try to make a keiki! If I recall correctly, you have some sentimentality for this particular Phal? Best of luck!

[mayres]

robb - yep I do. I've now had three subspikes from applying keiki paste instead of a keiki - so a little frustrated by the process. I even put in a dark closet as suggested during the process. Both the two spikes on the plant now are developng flower spikes and I'm inclined to let them do whatever they want on their own this time and see what happens.........

[mayres]

Thought I'd post a pic of my plant as of today - I will post a pic when it is in full bloom and THEN you will all will know why I want this plant to live - at this point via keiki!

[pikevi]

You surely know how to keep the suspense high!!!

May be in another week and a half??


hmmmm.. I don't think I can wait that long.

[mayres]

No, it's going to be a lot longer than that - maybe sometime in January. Yes - these orchids are SLOW SLOW SLOW. Have you seen the "Slowskees" on TV? LOL I'll bet they have a house full of orchids! The little phal flower in the pic is from a nearby plant. The plant in question has a branched subspike and another central spike - all with very small bud nodes just starting to form.

[sandra]

Mike, how strange. I just posted a question to you about this Phal in one of my other threads and looky here. Why will we know "then?" They all have smiling faces, right? <-----and they all look like this little guy, right?

I foresee keikis in your future. I hope, I hope, I hope.

[pikevi]

That is OK, mayres. Early next year is fine .

sandra: Keikis seem to be a dime a dozen here. Must be something in the water

[zero742]

Since keike paste has been mentioned here, I thought I'd venture a quick question. Can anyone tell me the difference between keiki paste and just plain old run of the mill rooting hormone? I was reading about keikegrow plus and on the manufacturer's website, it mentions it also works well with other plants. The description led me to believe that the keikigrow is very similar to a regular rooting hormone. Thanks for the help.

[mayres]

Keiki paste and rooting hormone are definately NOT the same thing. I purchased mine here Chula Orchids Newsletter/Catalog but noticed they are temporarily (they note) out of stock - it is only about $12.55 including shipping. I have tried it on several phal spikes and every time I have gotten another subspike - including three times noted on this thread. Maybe I should have Pikevi send me some Candadian water?

[SashaBear]

I'm a newbie to orchids, about two years now. I have mostly phals. During the winter months I have the time to come here and read and learn.
I'm really confused though. This is probably a dumb question but why will you're phal die because it only blooms and never keikeis??
None of my phals have ever had keikeis, nor have they died. What am I missing here?

[mayres]

A spike in the middle of the plant = no viable crown. No crown means no new growth. No new growth = no plant (eventually). Most phal leaves only "work" for the plant 2-3 years, then yellow and fall off.

[SashaBear]

Ah, o.k. I get it. Thanks for explaining that. I didn't know that about phals.

[mayres]

The plant that started this thread has now 10 blooms/buds on two spikes! Only time will tell what will happen next?
Just so others will know that this process DOES work. A work acquaintance brought in a phal for me to nurse back to health (if possible) that had the crown rotted entirely out of it. I did the SAME EXACT process as I had done earlier on my plant - applied keiki paste to the nodes on two spikes. One spike died and the other produced none other than a keiki! Now if MY little pink "sweetheart" will just cooperate...........For the time being I'm just letting nature take its course and see what happens naturally.
Note - the pictures following are of my friend's plant - process started in early December.

[zero742]

mike,
I'm not sure what sort of resources you have around you, but have you looked into micropropogation? I know this may be sort of a bit more technical way of propogation, but if the plant is very important to you it may be worth looking into.