Keiki or Subspike? What do you think?

[mayres]

It is one of my first plants which I'm emotionally connected with, but not to the extent that I would pay someone to make clones/meristems.

[Touria]

Mike my phal has done soemthing similar a few years in a row, looks like new growth to me, by that i guess i mean a "spike" not a keiki. anyways after several years it happened to grow a keiki.

I have a question of my own now.

My phal, (same one that produced a keiki, ive since then mounted it) has lost all of its leaves, not from crown rot though. and is left with just roots, HOWEVER receently i've noticed two new green....bits.. i thought they were just roots but as i take a closer look. it looks like the plant is growing new leaves lower on the base. Let me show you

First heres the mount. i just found some wood in the woods and wired my phal and den keiki's and the desperate phal which gave me the keiki, on with some spagnum moss below them.



u can see the phal thats mostly just a cluster of roots. i was worried for it originally, but I think theres hope


The lower growth looks like new leaves to me, the smaller one i cant tell yet. So are these in actual fact keiki's? and not just a new set of leaves? it would make sense since i assume the plants probably stressed out and has been since it sent out the last keiki about a year ago. That would also be extremely exciting, TWO new keiki's off a plant that i already have one from.

One last thing while on the subject of keiki's. I cut a keiki off a dendrobium which had no roots and planted it about a year ago. It's let out one new shoot since but no roots. I know now i should have waited for some roots to appear but since i didn't what can i do? ( its been planted in a pot of spagnum moss and as i said it has produced one shoot)

[mayres]

Phals can start new growth in two locations - as you have noted. Usually when they produce leaves on a node of the spike(s) they are called keikis. When they occur at the base of the plant they are usually called basal growths or basal keikis (yours look very good and should both develop into new crowns). The basal type are somewhat of a misnomer though in that they are actually just new leaf growths out of the base of the original plant versus "new" plants. Regardless of the technical name the end result can be the same - a new plant OR a renewed old plant. In the case of the spike keiki they are removed from the spike when enough root development allows and in the case of the basal keiki they would be left to utilize the original set of roots, or if they occur on a otherwise healthy/growing crown - one must wait until the new portion of the plant developes enough length and roots along its own set of leaves to be separated from the original plant - this may take some time.
Depending upon the health and vitality of the mother plant it is usually advantageous to leave keikis until they have significant roots of their own - they will grow and develop much faster with the mother providing nourishment. I'd keep your dend keiki in sphag and wait it out - if you have kept it alive this long it will probably eventually sprout roots - provide as much humidity as you can - this will help - possibly even a semi-enclosed micro-climate (people often term sphag and bag).

[arleneg]

Mike,

When your phal blooms, why don't you self pollinate it? If you get a seed pod(s) out of that, you can send to a flasking service and hope many germinate. There's Meyers Conservatory up in WA. I don't believe he charges for the flasking service, but asks to donate some of the seeds or a flask to his program.

P.S. -- Of course, you'll be first in line for a flask.

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by mayres

A spike in the middle of the plant = no viable crown. No crown means no new growth. No new growth = no plant (eventually).

While a spike coming from the crown does mark the end of growth for that particular crown, Phals can start new growths form the base of the plant. This can happen with pretty much ll Vandaceous orchids. Granted with Phals it doesn't happen as often as with other vandaceous orchids but it can happen.

It's good to hear your success with the keiki paste though. What would happen if you put some keiki paste around the base of your mother plant?

[mayres]

Hadn't thought of that Kevin - it certainly can't hurt - maybe I'll try that this weekend coming up?! Thanks for the suggestion! mike

[sandra]

Originally Posted by mayres

Phals can start new growth in two locations...
When they occur at the base of the plant they are usually called basal growths or basal keikis.... The basal type are somewhat of a misnomer though in that they are actually just new leaf growths out of the base of the original plant versus "new" plants. Regardless of the technical name the end result can be the same - a new plant OR a renewed old plant.

Mike, I'm a little confused about the basal kiekis. The don't necessarily develop crowns and into separate plants? I've got 4 basal kiekis growing and thought they'd eventually mature into single plants. Not necessarily?

....and while I'm here, I was wondering what ever happened with your friends Phal. that you were trying to recover? Last I read, you thought it was a goner. What happened?

[mayres]

Yes, all your basal keikis have their own crowns and will develop into plants that can be separated. Sounds like you are going to have an entire family growing up together - quadruplets - lucky you! Yes, each and every one will eventually develop into its own plant. As each keiki matures and lenthens with the developing of its own series of leaves you will get new roots developing along with those for each one. When you have enough root development you can cut each off the "mother". In the case of only having one basal keiki on a crownless mother plant it will just take over the root system of mom.
Not sure which friend's rescue phal we are talking about - the first one that went leafless has moved to phal "heaven". The 2nd one which is crownless is developing a nice kieki - we are waiting for root development now.
My crownless mini-phal that started this thread has a bouquet of gorgeous flowers right now - must post soon.

[sandra]

Originally Posted by mayres

My crownless mini-phal that started this thread has a bouquet of gorgeous flowers right now - must post soon.

Look forward to seeing the pics. Keep the paste out and ready Mike.

[patticake]

I love this thread. I've been following it. I've learned so much. Thanks to all who have contributed to it!

[mayres]

Sorry no artistic pictures with professional gear here - just a few snapshots - the flowers in real life are so beautiful this doesn't do them justice - but everyone probably feels this way about their own flowers? First pic is crownless phal with flowers display in total, 2nd pic is of a few of the flowers closer up, and final pic is same plant next to another phal - my first successful keiki that has grown into a mature plant - removed from mama in June 2004 and currently has four huge rounded leaves and a big fat spike with six buds developing Is this fun or what? Can anyone see why I want to save this plant?

[pikevi]

I sure can see that!!!

I have not seen anything like it anywhere here.

Congratulations.

[sandra]

Originally Posted by mayres

Is this fun or what? Can anyone see why I want to save this plant?

F U N. I'm hoping you get a kieki Mike. What a penny day that will be. Yeah, it's easy to see why you don't want to give it up. Maybe you should put the paste all over, not just on the spikes? As you would say, "bummer."

Congratulations on the kieki raised Phal. I'm looking forward to pics when it blooms. Very exciting.

[mayres]

Okay 10 weeks after my last update with flowers - only one flower left on the two spikes. I OF COURSE was hoping for a keiki at the nodes of either spike. Again you can see here that I have two subspikes instead


Then I turn the pot around and lookie lookie!

[kmarch]

Excellent...I had a hunch this would happen. As I mentioned in a previous post phals can grow multiple growths just like an Ascocentrum, a Neofinetia or other vandaceous orchids. I've seen phals at shows with 4-5 growths and 8-10 inflorescences so I knew they were capable of this.

This is great to have on the forum to show others that a terminal inflorescence does not necessarily spelll doom for the whole plant. Congratulations on your patience, perseverance and thanks for sharing this outcome!

[sandra]

I just asked you how this one was doing in your other thread (the monsterous roots on that one phal). I am so thrilled for you Mike....a royal flush! CONGRATULATIONS BIG TIME!

P.S. I can un-cross my fingers now.

[patticake]

Yay! I'm so glad you have the new chid on the way!!

[tizzycat]

Hearty congratulations Mike - excellent result. Must get some kiki paste.

[patlee]

You give me hope, Mike Three or four weeks ago I bought what was called an orchid bowl (two plants in a big, round bowl with no drainage). I repotted the two plants and one is doing fine, but the second--did not notice this 'til I repotted--has just a 1/4" nub where the new growth should be No crown to speak of...My situation is not as desperate as yours was because I have the other plant, but I'll keep after it with worm tea and Superthrive. Hope my results are as positive as yours. Congratulations on your new baby

[articuno75]

I've been following this thread since the beginning, and was absolutely worried that you was going to lose your plant. I'm sooo glad that it made a keiki and made your day! Awesome growing!

[Tobi]

Congratulations Mike!! Looks like with patience and good proper care, you can get
the expected results. I'm happy for you!

[snowballsarebad]

Hooray!!! It's been interesting following your saga, and I'm glad that you've finally had this success. What a reward for your patience and perseverence. You must post pictures when it starts getting a little larger so we can still follow the progress
I wonder if the "mother" plant might make more than one basal keiki?

[psyc1210]

Congrats!!

[mayres]

Thanks for all the encouragement everyone. I will definately post an update from time to time in the months to come.

[fred]

that is what I call good growing Mike Congrats and well done
thank you for keeping us updated also

[Nancy]

I have a suggestion that sounds radical, even to me. The plant is in an eventual terminal condition anyway. What do you suppose would happen if you cut the top off the plant. Is there the possibility that the basal leaves might grow a new top that isn't terminal? I know this is done when a Phalaenopsis gets to be too tall. Usually then the top is planted and the bottom usually starts growing again too. Just a thought which may be totally wrong but worth a try.

[norris]

Congratulations Mayres! I just read this entire thread, and was really in suspense
When I got to the part where the where the keiki paste maker told the 'screwdriver' story, that gave me hope that you would get a basal keiki instead of one from a node... sure enough!!

[Nancy]

I should have read the whole post. I tend to be a skimmer. Congratulations and please post pictures when the baby blooms. Could my idea have worked if it hadn't keikied?

[pikevi]

It is a beauty , mayres.

Subspikes and a keiki. Congratulations.

[mayres]

The three subspikes are getting closer to opening, but more importantly the keiki is showing good progress - thought I'd show a current pic. I probably should remove the subspikes but it has wanted to bloom SO BAD again that I hate to deny it.

[bkim]

My first time reading this thread and I found it HILARIOUS. Who would have thought Orchids could be so stubborn.

[sandra]

WOW, look at that baby grow! What a great story this has been!

[Celcat]

Well done Mayres! You eventually got your keiki

I thought that if you overwater the phal at the resting period, it should induce the growth of keikis.
I do remember when I have repotted my 2 first Phals, I did not have much knowledge about orchids. I had my 1st baby for 2 years and my 2d baby since a year. They were both out of bloom. I thought it will be a good time to repot. But I did not know that I should not water immediately after repotting.
So I repotted my two phals and water very generously afterwards. Very quickly, 2 keikis appeared on both phals. At that time, I really didnt know that a phal could get babies. But I could see this leaves growing on the spike, and then roots.
I do remember that flat where I was living wasnt the brightiest place I ever lived in.

I will try to see if I can get keikis that way again. The only prob I dont have any Phal to repot at the moment.

Anyway, congrat on your new keiki

[mayres]

They actually suggest that after you apply keiki paste that you keep your plant in a dark closet for a few weeks - so perhaps the lack of light was as much or more of a factor than the watering? Never heard that watering is a factor till your suggestion.
I will try and post a pic of this plant again soon - very nice growth by now.

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by Celcat

I thought that if you overwater the phal at the resting period, it should induce the growth of keikis.

This is true for some types of Dendrobium like kingies and nobile types. I don't think this applies ot phals though because they don't have a rest ing period. Thye grow year-round.

[Celcat]

Kevin,

All I can say, these plants were doing nothing at that time. Otherwise as a pure beginner I will not launch myself into a repotting session. I was a bit desesperate to have something happening.
I will try to replicate the conditions and see if it works

[kmarch]

Fingers crossed and thanks for not pointing out my much higher than usual number of typos in that last post.

[christinek]

Ok.. Just to clarify. I got a bit lost with other discussions regarding keiki and proper spellings etc. etc..... With that in mind. Are keiki's a completely new growth (a baby plant coming from the mother plant so to speak?) I just wanted to be sure.. And I'm assuming from this thread that keiki's can also form on an old flower spike that has been cut etc.. etc.?

Thanks Guys.. lol

[kmarch]

A keiki is a new "baby" plant that grows from an inflorescence (as with a phal) or from a cane (as with a dendrobium). That's not really what we're dealing with here as vandaceous orchids, even though monopodial, can initiate new growth form the base of the plant whenever it wants or, in this instance, when the "crown" of the plant has been damaged or destroyed. This growth really isn't a keiki.

On a related note, mayres, you're clearly doing really well with giving this plant good culture. All of the old leaves still look fresh and crisp. Even the old inflorescences look quite fresh and alive. And it looks like you have roots going all over and some with fresh growing tips coming out of the pot. These are all signs of really good culture. You're really doing well with your Phals. I get a great deal of enjoyment out of seeing other forum members doing so well by their orchids. Great work!

[christinek]

oh wow! So my dendrobium that had an old cane that was doing nothing ended up putting off new plants with roots that I just planted in the last week or so. So that would be considered a keiki?

[kmarch]

If they were coming off the cane at the side or near the top and not from the base of the plant, then yes, hose were definitely keikis.

[christinek]

Ok.. I had keikis then! They were growing off the top.. 3 of them to be exact.. I cut the cane about 2 inches from where they were growing so i had some lee-way and enough substance to anchor the new growth into the medium. And so far so good Kevin..

Being i have never done this before.. I went on instinct alone.. So I'm thinking I did good..

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by christinek

Ok.. I had keikis then! They were growing off the top.. 3 of them to be exact.. I cut the cane about 2 inches from where they were growing so i had some lee-way and enough substance to anchor the new growth into the medium. And so far so good Kevin..

When you say you cut the cane...do you mean you actually cut the mature dendrobium cane on which the keikis were growing? Did the keikis have roots?

The recommended procedure is to leave the keikis on the mother plant until they have roots 2-3 inches long, then remove them from the cane but leave the cane of the mother plant intact.

[christinek]

Oh no Kevin.. I think i didn't quite do it right.. The cane that grew the keikis was what looked to be a dead cane. Still green but doing nothing. After a feeding and me putting this Den. into the new medium. It started growing new growths and the keikis showed up on the what looked to be dead cane. I actually waited till their were some roots.. And I cut the cane down a few inches so as I said there would be room enough to put this part of the cane into the medium and create more dens.. so far they are still alive 2 weeks later and just slow growing.

Should I wait for them to mature more and pull them off of the old cut piece of cane and replant Kevin? It's the only thing I can think of to do .. lol

Thanks in advance..

[kmarch]

Ooops, well....lesson learned. Still green but doing nothing = alive. Old canes, even those who loose their leaves, still store moisture and provide nutrients to the rest of the plant. We all learn a few lessons the hard way so don't worry too much about it.

I think I would remove the keikis form the piece of cut-off cane if for no other reason than to keep the new keiki roots away from the rotting cane.

[christinek]

Ok.. Soon as those roots are bigger.. I will. Thanks Kevin!

[kmarch]

How big are the roots now?

[christinek]

they're small.. not even half an inch yet..

[mayres]

Here is a current picture of what my orchid looks like with the basal keiki/new growth (whichever terminology you choose). The new leaves are now the same size as the original leaves and this side of the plant is gradually "taking over" the root system as the old section does nothing, but will eventually "fade into the sunset". I'm so pleased that this plant is well on its way to normalcy - hopefully a long and "happy" life.............

[norris]

The plant looks great, do you think it is flowering size yet?

[kmarch]

You've really taught us a great deal through your experiences with these crown-bloomed plants and this thread. You're really getting impressive with your phal culture and knowledge!

[mayres]

Thanks Kevin - praying each day brings a new learning experience for all of us - it's nice to be able to "walk" together..............
Norris - I may be overly optimistic, but yes, I think it is possible that this plant could send up a spike this fall/winter!
We shall see.........stay posted.......

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by mayres

it's nice to be able to "walk" together..............

It sure is. I've really learned quite a lot since i've joined the forum!

[solay]

I've learn more every time I get on this forum. Not to mention seeing all the success of others.

The Phal. looks so healthy. Will be waiting blooms in the near future.

[snowballsarebad]

Woohoo, it looks excellent! Glad to see it is doing so well.

[mayres]

Just wanted to take a minute to encourage anyone who is about to give up on a plant. DON'T!
When this plant lost it's crown and then would not give me a keiki for so long I was getting concerned that my efforts might be for nothing. HOWEVER - things turned out much better than my wildest dreams! This very plant is one of the plants that I got a blue ribbon on back in March at our yearly show - it is even better now - it has added another trio of blooms at the tip!
As I have shown earlier - this plant is in the background of the group photo I took on the stops to my home (Thumbnail in post).

I thought I'd also post a couple of pics of this plant today - taken on the bathroom sink from in the bathtub! (You can see me in the mirror taking the pic of the entire plant! )

[flowerchild]

Very nice growing Mike!!!!

[kmarch]

Well first of all it's a beautiful phal, easy to see why it won a blue ribbon. Nice flowers, well presented.

And what a testament to patience. I remember when you posted about your terminal spike. That was about 2 years ago. Bravo for you! And thanks for keeping us all posted along the way. Very educational!

[norris]

I see why you wouldn't want to lose this one!

[PhalPal]

Lovely Phal Mike! Great job!

[dorothea]

such a beauty! great growing!