My Poor, Once Beautiful Cattleyas

[sandra]

Today has been one of those days...ECH!!!!

It's been raining all day (right prisana!!) so I thought, I'd do some repotting (non orchids). As well, had to water some orchids. Reaching for my huge purple cattleya, I side-swiped my brand new yellow/red mini cattleya which took a nose dive and went crashing. One flower down and no breaks, I repotted it. I feel that damage has been done to this perfect specimen and only time will tell if this caused irreversible stress. Like a piece of artwork, broken and re-glued and second-hand is how it now seems.

After that orchid, I decided to have a look at my purple cattleya, took it out of the pot and I was dumb-founded. I bought this toward the end of April from the local nursery near my house. I knew it would need repotting after the flowering because the rhizome and roots were overflowing then but what I couldn't comprehend were all the dead, black roots that were abound and an obvious musty odor. I watered this plant once a week and yet it had the smell of old dampened rot. Being that I'm not great at distinguishing what needed to come off, I just cut the 'obvious' dead roots, removed all the old bark then, repotted it.

Until I noticed this, I would have sworn the plant was thriving and in optimum shape. The only thing I thought was suspicious was that the flowers did not last as long as my phals but that just may be atypical for most cattleyas....so I assumed....now I'm wondering. I'm also not comfortable with having left what may have been dead roots on the plant but I erred on the side of caution....

To all the cattleya gurus out there: Is there something more I should do or just leave it alone now?

[prisana]

Oh..Sandra, I'm so sorry. No worries..the winds knock down my plants almost weekly and they are still thriving ( after repotting ). Artworks don't mend themselves , but thank goodness orchids do. They are pretty tough . Yes, the rain...the humidity is like 120% right now , I'm drowning in it I've managed to fill up 3 big trash cans with rain water, and some smaller containers, started only after I got home from work today..now I'm rich.

Catts have so many big thick roots and they are prone to rot, but they are also vigorous plants, some new shoots are always coming up that will throw out new roots . Of all my 47 catts, I haven't lost one yet from root rot. Your catt could have just been in the same medium for too long, the old medium and the plant can't absorb all that water it's been given fast enough, even if there wasn't much water. Or the roots were kept too dry too long ,beyond recovery, and they lose their functions.

I've repotted a few catts that came to me with absolutely no good roots, yet they defied the odds and grew out bunch of new roots and thrive not long after that.

Your catt is fine, after you repot it , keep it on the dry side, only misting the top of the medium and pseudobulbs daily, keep it out of strong light. In a couple of weeks you should see new roots and you can proceed with the regular watering and fertilizing. I hope this helps some.

[kmarch]

sandra,

You probably suffered more from your Cattleya's tumble than the plant did. It's shocking to knock over a plant. Last year I knocked my big Phal off the shelf...sharp intake of air...frozen, horrified...feelings of dread...not wanting to look yet wanting to know.... The end of the story is that the plant took a nasty hit and had a badly split and broken leaf but it went on to bloom and grow a new leaf. These mishaps almost invariably hurt us more than the plant.

It's unfortunate to loose a flower to be sure, but unless your plant has suffered sever broken pseudobulbs, roots, stems, and leaves it will survive to bloom again.

[sandra]

Originally Posted by prisana

Artworks don't mend themselves , but thank goodness orchids do. They are pretty tough.

prisana, I read this part and took a deep breath.

I suspect the medium was broken down because no way have I over watered this plant. Are you suggesting NO watering for a few weeks except for misting? Also, I was misting (and watering) it with the worm tea and according to Jerry, fertilizer can be eliminated when using the tea so I wasn't using anything additional.

47 catts prisana? My kind of girl! I have to admit that catts are my favorite orchids but that won't stop me from the rest....I just keep gravitating towards them more than the others!

Thank you for your response here. I needed to hear from someone who knows and since we're both environmentally-friendly to Florida, I appreciate you sharing your smarts with this not-so-smart orchid wanna-be! I will follow all your advice here!

[Vivienne]

Oh Sandra - I'm so sorry to hear about your day. But I believe it's true, orchids are hardier than we give them credit for. Please keep us posted!!
And I hope your weekend goes better than your Friday did.

[prisana]

Oh yeh, I forgot to mention your new catt, now get yourself a paperbag , breathe in and out of it real fast. It won't help with anything but that's what people do when they hyperventilate, that's what I do, less the bag. It's very frustrating to lose new flowers, oh I can't even begin to think about how p%$$#@ off I'd be, I feel for you.

But like Kev said, it hurts you more than your plant, knowing this..you can give it a little kiss-it-better and get a good-night sleep and perhaps wake up tomorrow and go orchid-shopping, they say it's a good cure to anything.

[sandra]

Originally Posted by kmarch

It's unfortunate to loose a flower to be sure, but unless your plant has suffered sever broken pseudobulbs, roots, stems, and leaves it will survive to bloom again.

You promise Kevin? I felt EXACTLY the way you described your incident with your Phal. I think I'll feel better next month when I see some (hopefully) progress with the both of them.


Vivienne, I know...what a drag huh, and the scary thing is, Friday's not over yet! What else can go wrong? One thing for certain....I'm not stepping foot on the patio till the morning!

[sandra]

Originally Posted by prisana

Oh yeh, I forgot to mention your new catt, now get yourself a paperbag , breathe in and out of it real fast.

prisana: I think I began to hyperventilate! I thought about a paperbag but then remembered that Publix always wraps in plastic! LOL

And yes, I already got a prescription from the orchid dr. for a new plant tomorrow!

[PhalPal]

I know!!! WORM TEA!!! Put worm tea on it! Hey...couldn't hurt.

[sandra]

One is a lonely number......

[fred]

sandra my heart and Angee,s goes out to you

[Sharyn]

Sandra, I know how you feel, but everyone is right about the plant bouncing back. If I can grow a cattleya, ANYONE can grow one, and that includes a damaged catt.

I received a couple catts in January that were almost frozen solid. They lost some ugly leaves, I over watered, underwatered, stuck it outside in too much light this spring. When I finally saw some new roots, painstakingly repotted it. Then, recently, I saw the new flower sheaths! I was so excited, until the horror set in and I realized that I planted the rhizome backwards. Now most of my new growth is coming at the edge of the pot.

My two girls sent me a mental message: "Lady, just go away and leave us alone and we'll do what we're suppose to do. Just go away quietly and we'll give 'ya some dang flowers!" Therefore, I'm leaving them alone and they seem to be doing quite well, with very little intervention from yours truly.

[sandra]

Originally Posted by Sharyn

I was so excited, until the horror set in and I realized that I planted the rhizome backwards. Now most of my new growth is coming at the edge of the pot.

Sharyn: how do you plant rhizome backwards? The bulk or crown of the plant is recommended that it be potted towards the edge of the pot, so I've always been told. It would also take a much larger pot to get the plant into, if you were going to try and fit it more centered and that wouldn't be good for the growing conditions of the plant either so again, how do you plant the rhizome backwards? In a round pot, how does one plant backwards? I'm stumped here trying to visualize the right/wrong way you mentioned to plant a cattleya and wondering if I messed up when I repotted mine the other day.

[jerrymeola]

Sandra

You plant sounds like just what you should expect from an overgrown Cattleya. I say this for those who might consider buying these plants, because they are often sold at discount.

I bought 150 last October in overgrown 5 inch pots. (I am a commercial grower for those who do not know) Almost everyone looked exactly like you describe. The reason is that Cattleya grow in one direction along a rhizome.

what was meant (badly worded) about planting 'backward' (I have never heard the word used by commercial growers) was that since they only grow in one direction - push the old growth hard up against the side of the pot with the other side of the pot empty and the Cat will grow into it.

What happens with overgrown plants is the rhizome grows out and over the side of the pot. If allowed to grow a year or two like this the roots in the pot all die and the plant lives entirely on the bare root existence over the side of the pot.

Cattleya grow this way naturally.

you should expect to cut off a lot of roots every re-potting of Cattleya. This is one reason annual or at least bi-annual re-potting is necessary.

It is a lot of work to re-pot overgrown plants. Most commercial growers are not growing large specimens anymore.

Do not worry about cutting off the dead roots. This is necessary every r-potting. I mentioned in the Newbie section last year that in Asia they often cut of all roots on Cattleya every year to encourage new growth. I do not go quite that far, but the more old roots I remove the better the plants grow. I did cut off all the rots on several last October and they have more new roots then the re-potted ones.

I received some overgrown 2 inch pots three months ago where I cut off all the roots. They are flowering already.

Soft mushy roots must always be cut off. Dried dead roots will only rot and become mushy so cut them off. (They actually break off easily with a little pressure. This is my test method.) Save the new roots with green tips. The green tips are the only growing part of the root.

The plant will do fine. If you are afraid of cutting too much re-pot again when the new roots are an inch or two long and cut off more.

By the way the life span of a Cattleya flower is about 4-6 weeks not the 2-3 months of a Phalaenopsis.

[chefatplay]

Oh Sandra, I'm sorry you had such a bad Friday! Hopefully, all is well now. I know exactly how you feel. Remember when I rolled my Brassia in full bloom down 6 stairs! SUCK IN BREATH, AFRAID TO LET IT OUT...... Holy Cow...or perhaps more appropriate to this forum Holy Worm Tea.

Have a great day today. We are going airboating today as soon as I finish soaking my orchids. Hope to take some pictures of lillies and other wild things.

[sandra]

Jerry,

Thanks for responding. I was hoping you'd see this and put your advice in.

Hoping you're still around to respond to a couple of more questions I have.

Should I de-pot the plant again and cut off all the dead roots that I cautiously was reluctant to do the other day? When I repotted the other day, I did push the rhizome against the edge (which is where it originally was) but planted it further down into the pot. Is this correct? The plant is very tight in the pot and I know this is recommended but should I consider going one size bigger to make room for growth? I've attached a photo of the plant.

By the way, this plant cost $30 which I thought was a great price but am thinking now that it needed a lot of work therefore, discounted by nurseries standards?

[Sharyn]

Thanks Jerry. I was in the process of trying to answer Sandra's question about my poor terminology of planting backwards! You've covered it well.

I learned a great deal from observing an orchid's growth pattern. My mistake was a lack of knowledge of the growing eye and where the new lead would appear. For the time being, these two catts are going to stay in their present pots until they bloom and then I'll fix their position at the right time and follow your instructions.

Sandra: I picked up a copy of Mary Noble's book, You Can Grow Cattleyas (Edition II). It's an inexpensive paperback $12.95 with a wealth of information covering all kinds of catts. If you like catts, you might enjoy this book.

[prisana]

Originally Posted by sandra

Are you suggesting NO watering for a few weeks except for misting? Also, I was misting (and watering) it with the worm tea and according to Jerry, fertilizer can be eliminated when using the tea so I wasn't using anything additional.

Sandra, No normal watering at all for about 2 weeks, just enough to keep the plant from drying out, so misting the top of the medium and pseudobulbs a couple times a day is fine. Fertilizing is not neccessary when roots are weak, it will actually have a reverse effect ..bad instead of good. Don't know about worm tea , though , but I think worm tea is fine. Good luck Sandra

[sandra]

Sharyn, I'll look for that book. Thanks.

Prisana, I'm going to repot it again this afternoon when I get home. Want to get more dead roots off of it then I'll just mist for the next 2 weeks. Thank you once again.

Ellen, Have fun on your boat today. If you think of it, take some photos to post. Would love to see them! And yes, I remember your rolling brassia incident. Frightening! It was like reading a horror novel.

[PhalPal]

I'm a little confused about watering plants after re-potting. I have read in many books and heard from experts to not water at all for several weeks after re-potting. I have also been advised from two Phal specialists that they DO water after re-potting because they feel it stresses the plant more to leave it dry. I water and Worm Tea with new media and have never had a problem. In most cases, I do wait until all blooms have faded and I see new root and leave activity to do the transfer. Could this be why I have never had a problem? Sandra I'm serious about the worm tea - I put it on anythng that has suffered a stress (even re-potting) and it works wonders.

[sandra]

Prisana, I need You and your catt expertize here. I went ahead and cut down the roots on my purple cattleya. There wasn't much left from this huge plant, a few spots, if that. I soaked it in a rooting hormone along with the worm tea and potted it in fresh media. I went ahead and did what Jerry suggested. So, with this information, should I still hold off on the watering and only mist the plant for a couple of weeks or should I give it a generous watering to start conditioning it?

[prisana]

Sandra, When you soak the bark ( or mix ) before repotting, there's enough water in there to sustain it for a while and it will dry out slowly, since there's no roots or very little roots in the pot , any extra water would just not get used up and all kinds of things will be living and growing in there, and it will probably sour the mix . The roots need a chance to heal and that means least water you can give it , just only enough not to let the plant dry out. And no fertilizer ( but I know you don't use fertilizer )

The pseudobulbs are storage for water, so don't worry , they won't keel over and die from being without the abundance of water for a couple of weeks.

I'm no expert, but I've found that this works best for my orchids , they need to rest a bit after all that ordeal. No strong lights needed either

hope this helps you some. Let me know if you have more question. Good luck Sandra .

[Tobi]

I have heard from other Catt. growers that after repotting you should also
keep the plant in a rather dry, shaded area for a while. Anybody comment
on that?

[PhalPal]

I don't understand how drying out a plant to 'rest' it helps after a stressor. Seems to me it would be working harder to acquire water and stress it even more? Could be that because phals do not have pseudobulbs the practice is different for them?

[jerrymeola]

Phal Pal

Your two posts define some of the issues.

You might think that after re-potting the plant needs water, but the problem is that with stressed Cattleya roots, they can not absorb water. Also the Cattleya can go a long time without water. Actually I do not think that old Cattleya roots even absorb much water. It is the new growth that counts.

But to your first post, Phals do not like to dry out and watering is necessary after re-potting, but not any more than necessary to keep the medium damp.

I find that a lot of members of the forum have a tendency to take advice for one family of orchids and apply it to another family. This does not always work. Try to understand why the advice was given and limit its use to the reason intended.

Sharon

I was preparing a long (and getting longer) tutorial on re-potting Cattleya. I have two examples of over-grown pots - one where I cut off every root and another where (over-grown pot) the roots are almost always bad (75 plants) and I cut off most. We are going to have to have pictures for anyone to understand the issues.

I have more photos in the series to show root rot from over-watering one in only two days.

For today, if you see newly growing roots with green tips (probably the ones over the outside of the pot, then leave it for now. Dead roots take a long time to rot and if the plant is allowed to dry between waterings the rot is unlikely to spread.

If you see the pseudo-bulbs starting to rot, then re-potting and surgery is necessary.

I will look tonigh and see if I have any of the photos with me, outerwise I will post them on the weekend, when I am home.

[PhalPal]

Thanks Jerry!

[sandra]

OK, so the vote's in. Both Jerry and Prisana agree that I should leave the plant alone for now. Being that I cut back on all the roots and have in essence, prepared it for a healthy new growing, I'll let it rest for the next couple of weeks and lightly mist it....no watering till then.

Thank you all once again.

[sandra]

I am just dumbfounded, confused, can't figure this out.......

I'm posting my dilemma here because this thread has a lot of valuable solutions to problems and concerns regarding cattleyas and I've just been presented with yet, another.

Here's my lastest....

Another new and very young cattleya that I bought last month, it was dry rooted when purchased. I conditioned it with a good soak in rooting hormones and potted it up in a small pot with fresh bark. Have been watering it once a week and misting with worm tea.

Yesterday, I had a look at my other mini cattleya, the one that took a CRASH last week. The roots were completely rotted. I wasn't that all surprised being that I had just recently bought it and it was near the end of it's blooming and more telling, I wasn't the one watering it prior to my purchasing it so it didn't surprise me to see all the rot. I'm also aware that catts. need their roots trimmed down yearly in order to keep it thriving and produce good growth. I trimmed it all down and repotted it and will now wait a few weeks to give it a good watering. I'll mist in the meantime.

OK, getting back now to the little, young catt....after repotting the last of my catts yesterday, I decided to have a look at this one to see how it was doing, never thinking I wouldn't see anything other than progress. WRONG! WHY, I can't figure out was this plant filled with only rotted roots? I'm wondering if it had something to do with the condition in which I purchased it.....dried? I don't think I was over watering it????? Young catts, I'm told should not be allowed to dry as mature catts should. And once a week in fresh bark, a good slatted pot and I'm stumped. As well, I trimmed off all the dead roots which were mostly ALL the roots and will do the same as above but obviously I have to change the habit of the care I'm giving it so my first guess would be to water all the catts every other week and mist daily???????? It's getting extremely hot here now and so far the air quality has been decent with breezy days but that's all about to change....the air is getting still and thick so I'm obviously concerned that aside from getting the fans out, if watering every other week is enough.

ADVICE NEEDED!!!!!

P.S. Hope Prisana reads this ........LOL

[brookn]

I don't know if this will help, but I potted my seedling catts in bark on the bottom and surrounded the roots with sphag. They were bare root, and they are growing green roots. I am wondering if there is enough air circulating in the room they are growing in. Mine have one of those big box fans going on them plus a ceiling fan and the humidity has been 80% and above. I leave mine to dry until the sphag is crispy, and when I stick my pinky down into the sphag sometimes it is still damp. If still damp I wait a day or two to water again. Maybe they just need more drying time or more air. Been 6 days since mine were watered, and they are still damp in the middle with all of the air. Hope that helps.

[sandra]

I think I just need more drying time as you've mentioned Brook. I keep reading that the hotter it is, the more frequent the watering but I don't think thats true for my conditions. The humidity here keeps the bark moist longer in summers than in winters when the air is cooler and less humid. I'm going to try more misting and much less watering.

[prisana]

Hi Sandra..sorry I didn't see your post yesterday..

Have you been omitting the water and only misting? I forgot how long it's been since you repotted it ( a week, maybe?) The thing about newly repotted catt roots is that , if kept too moist and no air circulation , the older roots, instead of branching out new root tips, will likely rot. Have you got a bamboo skewer ? stick one in the pot, and next time you feel you need to water it, check the skewer first , if it's still damp, then wait a day or two like Brook said.

Also, the roots need the least disturbance as possible, thus we use rhisome clips to keep the plants from moving around in their pots. I know how tempting it is to take a peek at what's going on inside the pot, but it's really not a good idea to take out a plant that's trying to recover because it can cause a set back in their recovery process.

I hope this helps a bit, and hope Jerry will sign on to help you with more expert advice since I'm only speaking from my experience ( very little , compare to the real pros )

[sandra]

Only misting for now prisana. I'll do this for the few weeks recommended then will be using the skewers again. When I was in Hawaii, it would rain lightly for 5-10 minutes daily so the misting will hopefully create those same conditions. I'm not tempted to check anything out. I'm leaving it very still and undisturbed. I tend to think now they need less attenion than I was giving them. I'm a nurturer with my plants and I have to learn to step back a little.

Thanks for your input prisana!

[prisana]

Sandra,
I was just reading the worm tea update posted by Jerry and he mentioned that plants retain more water if worm tea is used, but I don't know if he meant the plant itself or the mix that retains water , you might want to look into that..good luck.