Using Sea Weed Extract

[skipper]

I have been using seeweed on my Phals for about three months now. I must say I have not seen a big differance in the plants. Today when I mixed up a batch to water my plants again, I tested the seeweed solution for PH. My tap water is very soft, with a PH today of 7.39. I could not believe what I found. The solution tested out to a PH of 8.89 !!! The plants can not even use the nutrients at a level that high. I went to the pet store and purchased some PH down for fish tanks and added it to lower the PH to 6.49. I know there has been some threads on PH and most people have said that it makes little ot no differance what the PH is. I think that results like this would make most think this over again. If you are using seeweed on your plants, I would check the PH of your solution first, and go from there. It should be interesting to see what differance this is going to make.

Dale

[otis 226]

I do not water with l.s. I use it as a spray on the foliage, (of course the potting material also gets doused). I've noticed considerable root growth on plants treated with a once weekly spray of l.s.

Tony

[Ron]

Hi, interesting thing about the PH, will have to buy a PH tester.
I have used sea weed extracts products for many years as a tonic only, gives a boost on repotting of plants. Also used in early spring to get the plants back into growing mode after their winter rest.
I just pour it over leaves and potting mix
Great tonic to get plants into growing mode after deflasking, do not use it as a general fertiliser as it does not have the streangh and elements/food required by the plants.

[rcb]

I saw a huge difference when I started using seaweed extract. So much growth in fact that I cut back on how often I used it.

But I'm curious that you say that the nutrients in seaweed extract are not taken up by the plant at 8.9 pH. Which nutrients?

To add to what I saw, my son actually did a little science project comparing seaweed extract, plain tap water and fertilizer to root plants.

The plants that were watered with fertilizer and seaweed extract rooted weeks faster than the others. Just a little 6th grade simple project, but the results were surprising.

Here is some of the "research" from his paper. Please remember this was written by a child. But I made sure he used good references.

"Seaweed extracts contain natural plant growth regulators which control the growth and structural development of plants. Seaweed extract also contains 4 major plant growth regulators auxins, cytokinins, indole, and hormones. Auxins move to areas where they allow the walls of cells to stretch. Cytokinins are hormones that promote growth by way of speeding up the process of dividing cells. Indoles are compounds that help the development of plant buds and roots. There are 60 types of nutrients in seaweed."

[skipper]

rcb, looks like you have a real nice son, great project. All the reading I have done on growing Phals, say that the water and solutions that you water your plants with should have a PH of 5.5 to 6.5 in order for the plant to uptake all of the nutrients. I could not tell you which ones in seeweed the plants are not able to use. I don't have a clue, but with a PH as high as 8.9 it can't be good. It seems to me if you can adjust the PH to a more acid range it has to be good. I don't think it can hurt. The PH meter is a great tool for alot of things, and I think this is one of them. Also great for mixing fertilizer and just plane water for your plants. Just a thought.

Dale

[orchids4me]

Hi Dale,
You mentioned you water is soft wondering if that may be why the ph is affected when using the extract? I've had wonderful results using it but my water isn't soft here.

[plucker]

PH is critical with plants. When it is outside an acceptable range the nutrients are not absorbed into the plant.
The PH range from the bottom to the top will give adverse flowering affecting the amount of flowers, qualities, color etc. Really is amazing how much affect it has.
That is why rain water is ideal. PH is balanced with trace minerals.

[Ray]

Actually, the pH versus nutrient uptake thing is - to some extent - poorly extrapolated data; some would say a "myth".

We have all seen the chart showing individual ions and their availability as the pH changes. What folks don't consider is that the data is from a single test, using a single fertilizer formula, measuring the pour-through from a single sample of soil. The graph actually says nothing about plants' uptake of the minerals, it's just whether they are available or not - soluble or not, free or bound to the soil constituents. If a fertilizer made up using different minerals was used, the graph would likely be different. Likewise if it was solution testing (more applicable to orchids), or done using a different soil.

I am not suggesting that pH isn't an important factor, just that it's not all that critical, especially in the 5-9 range - and again - it depends upon what the chemicals are that are affecting it. Pure water has a pH of 7, but by absorbing carbon dioxide from the air, carbonic acid is formed, and considering the amount of CO2 typically in the air, the equilibrium pH is about 5.3-5.4, which is pretty low. However, carbonic acid is SO weak, that anything else that dissolves in the water completely overwhelms it, rendering it totally inert.

As to why a seaweed extract may not be effective, there are a lot of potential factors. (Discussions about these products here got me to look into it, and I'm working to become a distributor...) It might have been a pH issue, but we should consider:

1) Not all extracts are created equal. Some are loaded with auxins which primarily stimulate root growth, others more cytokinens than tend to have more vegetative growth influence (both do both - it's a matter of degree). Some are highly concentrated, others less so. I'm sure there are more innate differences.

2) Age of the material. Even though they tend to be far more stable than the synthetic analogs used in SuperThrive, K-L-N, and the like, the active chemicals in the extracts still have a finite "shelf life", and it's hard to know the status of what you're buying, and most don't tell you to keep the stuff cool and dark.

3) Renee's son's observations may also give a clue - while the chemicals can work by themselves, if the plant doesn't have the other nutrient "building blocks" to work with, what's the point. (I had one grower tell me "It's like taking a Viagra while you're alone on a desert isle...")

[rcb]

Ray brings up a good point. I keep my seaweed extract in the original container, in the fridge. When I use I, it make up a solution fresh. don't even keep the mixed stuff overnight. (Well it does stink lol)

Also, the pH of my water here is usually about 6.7 - 6.8, indicating low buffering capabilities.

And one other thing to think about. I'm not going to get into specific pH range and nutrient availability, but organic compounds from seaweed extract I would expect don't necessarily have the same absorption properties as inorganic ions. Second, even if they did, it is not the pH of the solution as made that is what is available to the roots. It's the pH of the solution available to the roots. So if the plants are in any type of potting mix, the solution in the potting mix is going to be different than the solution made up in the container.

For example, I think (not positive) that spag is acidic. So the ph of the solution after it goes through the spag is going to be different than what the pH was when made up fresh.

I'm not usually one to publicly support a "miracle" ingredient. But the difference I saw while using this stuff was way too obvious.

One more comment about Shane's project. The plants watered with just tap water died. They never did grow roots.

[Brooke]

Renee did the seaweed make an orchid grow roots when it wasn't their normal time to grow? I have some which lose their active growing tips but when the conditions improve (to their way of thinking) the growing tips reappear and the roots elongate again.

Brooke

[rcb]

Brooke, I don't know. I only used it on the orchids during spring and early summer. I stopped using it mid summer, as I didn't want new leads starting at that time. I wanted the new leads that had started to mature.

Remember the bulk of my plants grow outside during the winter, and I'd rather they do a semi-rest.

But I seem to remember (don't necessarily trust it, I'm getting old), that my Aerangis did start new roots. And mine usually don't grow that many roots in summer. They are typically wintertime root growers for me.

As for the other plants, yes root growth was extraordinary compared to previous years. But that may be because it was the first full year in using LECA as my medium.

What I did see was plants that I've had for years, which typically put out a couple new leads every spring were putting out numerous ones.

And my bloomings are better, more flowers, bigger flowers, brighter colors than before. Is the effects from last spring still affecting them? I don't know, I would think not, but on the other hand, I really don't think I became that much better of an orchid grower overnight.

For example, my C. loddigesii which I could count on one to three spikes every spring has 6 sheaths budding up right now. I know that as plants get more mature they do put out more blooms, but this increase in one year?

My Siam Jade, which was a 2 - 3 flower per spike has 5 flowers on a single spike right now, and two more spikes developing, one of which has at least 4 buds.

My Dens also are showing more spikes and more flowers than they have in previous years. (BTW truantuanni has three spikes Yay)

So, does this all mean that the seaweed extract is directly responsible? I dont know. But I'm happy enough to spend the money and time on it just in case it is.

[skipper]

Emmaye, Our water here is very soft with a TDS in the 40 to 60 ppnm range. Testing for NaCL, it is around 36 to 40 ppm. The ph ranges from7.3 to 7.5 most of the year. This makes for some very nice water for the plants. I have no idea what other water types would do to the mixing of seeweed. If your water was on the acid side, I am sure that the ph would not be as high as mine is. Science was not my strong suit in school, so I am flying by the seat of my pants here. In one of the orchid books I have by Bob Gordon, he says that all water used for Phals should have a ph in the range of 5.5 to 6.5.
Is he correct? I have the ph meter, I have the time, I have a way to adjust the ph, so I am giving it a shot. As I said before, I don't think it can hurt. Results may vary. Just remember, it's a hobby.

Dale

[E-Jag]

So if my or your water tests out to 8.0, should we consider bringing it down a little? If so, what is the easiest way to accomplish this? Can something be added, for example, to a couple gallons of water as needed?

[skipper]

E-Jag I went to the pet store and purchased a small bottle of PH Down. It is a liquid and you add the number of drops that will bring it down to the range you are looking for. If you are a large grower, this may not be economical, but I have about 16 plants so it works well for me. It is safe for the plants,as it is used in aquariums that house both fish and plants. You will need some way to measure the ph of your water. I have a meter, but test strips will also work. I think that this is an improtant issue, and I am going to try this and see if it helps. I have read about this in to many places. I think there is something to this.

Dale

[Brooke]

Thanks Renee for your thoughts. I divided a big catt day before yesterday which bloomed a couple of months ago but the roots were just now growing. While picking out the old bark I was wondering if it would help spring old pbulbs to life.

I see people talk about the wonders of seaweed but I've always wondered if it was in fact the seaweed or the actual growing season for the plant. I used one bottle once for my Phals and didn't like what it did to my sphag so didn't try it again.

BTW you've described the growth habit of loddigesii - it sounds like your is getting to be specimen size.

Brooke

[Ray]

Originally Posted by Brooke

I see people talk about the wonders of seaweed but I've always wondered if it was in fact the seaweed or the actual growing season for the plant. I used one bottle once for my Phals and didn't like what it did to my sphag so didn't try it again.

Brooke, I was right with you on your wondering, but finally broke down and did some digging.

One thing I learned is that every NFL team (and many college teams) with a grass field uses kelp extract on their fields - I assume to stimulate root growth to "anchor" the grass they have to restore after every game. Despite the oodles of cash they have in the bank, it's hard to imagine that they would use a product that doesn't work.

After that tiny bit of encouragement, I contacted the North American distributor of one particular product, only to discover they sell only to large-scale growers (primarily of fruits and nuts), but I convinced them that flowering plants like orchids might be considered similar to plants producing fruit (a seed capsule is a fruit, isn't it?), and they did send me a 2.5-gallon "sample". They insisted that I start by using it quite dilutely, and never more than once every two weeks, or I'd "burn out" the plants by over-stimulation and disruption of natural biological processes.

So-far, I have applied it three times in the greenhouse (about 3 weeks apart), and think I am seeing some stimulation in growth of both roots and foliage, but I have also used it on my houseplants (including some terrestrial orchids), and that's where I am really encouraged.

In Two Dracaena marginata plants, I'm seeing the emergence of new growths on existing branches, and new growth spurts in two other unknown species/hybrids. Several different aglaonema plants have jumped into action, too. They normally grow for me with more-or-less vertical stalks, with the leaves being essentially out to the sides, but within a day of treatment, the leaves all perked up and started pointing upward. A small Neanthe bella palm my wife saved from a dish garden was about 12" tall, but the first growth after treatment was 18". An aspidistra exploded into new growth. A spathyphyllum we've had for 5 years - received in-bloom as a gift that has never bloomed since - is currently blooming.

All of the plants are in Semi-Hydroponics, and receive the same MSU level as the plants in the greenhouse, but not nearly the light levels (damned dark old house).

I have several terrestrials in sphagnum on a brighter back porch, and the sarcoglottis plants have all spiked (although i cannot claim enough experience with them to know of this is just the right time, of if it's due to the kelp).

I am very encouraged.

[Brooke]

Thanks Ray but what I'm looking for is info on orchids which have a distinct non-growing season. Would the seaweed "make" them grow roots when they are supposed to be basically dormant or will they ignore the genetics and sprout roots.

When I was repotting the other day I kept three old catt pbulbs and wonder if the seaweed would encourage the dormant eyes to pop or would the eyes pop during the plants normal season to grow, probably the spring. Would the seaweed also make roots appear on these old bulbs or make the one lone long root go wild and multiple.

Thanks for the info on the football field grass - it is a miracle the seaweed grows grass in January at Lambeau Field

Brooke

[Ray]

That's funny, Brooke. Just because they use it, it doesn't mean they use it at all times. It would probably become ice this time of year.

I have no knowledge of their workings, but I would guess that hormone application could spark growth during what would otherwise be a dormant period. They can be used to induce ovulation in animals, so why not?

[otis 226]

Originally Posted by Brooke

Thanks Ray but what I'm looking for is info on orchids which have a distinct non-growing season. Would the seaweed "make" them grow roots when they are supposed to be basically dormant or will they ignore the genetics and sprout roots.

Brooke

Brooke, I've had a liquid seaweed solution grow roots on a rootless little Phal in record time, (about 2 weeks for nubs to form and 3 weeks for actual small roots). The plant was one leaf and a rhizome and it was suspended above the solution, barely touching.
Tony