dendrobium/Phal. watering question

[andyt]

Hi,
I have (incorrectly I now know) watered my dendrobium throughout winter on the same routine as my 2 phals.

The result is that I have 3 keikis growing on it, which I'm quite confident I can deal with, but my question is - Do I keep watering it, now that I've started? or do I need to stop and let the plant rest? and will I lose the parent ?

I think common sense is telling me that now I have babies, I need to keep feeding them, but you (I) never know !

And will a drop in temperature encourage my Phals to flower ? they haven't for a while now, just keep putting out new leaves.

many thanks
andyt

[sandra]

I've read a lot of conflicting (pros and cons) about these keikis. Why would these growths be something to remove or prevent? Do they zap the growing potential from the mother plant? Can they be removed and potted to begin the cycles of new plants?

I'm not quite sure what's growing on my phal but there's a lot of new growth that's recently ocurred. I tried getting a close up of an example of what I'm referring to. The quality of the photo is poor but if this is something someone recognizes as normal growth/keiki, would you shed some light my way?

Thanks

[andyt]

Hiya,
that's exactly what I have. They aren't a bad thing at all. The plant is just reproducing. You've probably done what I've done. Apparently, they should be rested over winter and instead I watered mine as usual. When it comes to flowering time, the keikis have grown instead of flowers.
Once they are a reasonable size with their own aerial roots, they can be removed and repotted. FREE PLANTS ! It's a good thing.

I just wasn't sure how I should water the main plant from now on is all.
Good luck with it. If it's anything like mine, you may get a couple more

cheers for replying,
Andy

[DDS2007]

hi !
i have read the keikis are a sign that a plant is under stress of some kind. it's the plant's last resort to propagate before it dies as to preserve its kind. i'm not saying that your parent orchid is going to die, i'm just saying it must be under major stress, especially that it's producing three keikis.
i have no idea if u should slow down on the watering, maybe one of the senior members would tell us what he/she thinks?

[PhalPal]

DDS2007 is correct; your plant is under some type of stress. I think you may be grossly overwatering and this has caused some type of condition to make your plant unhappy. (many threads to refer to for diagnosis) In general, orchids will grow (well) one thing at a time, leaves, roots, or flowers. If you are producing keikis you will not have flowers. With that said! I have a mini-phal that is supporting a spike in full bloom, a new spike, and a new leaf all at the same time and the plant is gloriously healthy. NOT the norm for most orchids and I wouldn't believe it if I didn't see it myself. Keep in mind your environs and the dampness of England and take that into account when watering. Search this forum for the 'skewer method' of testing for soil dampness. Most of the growers on this forum that welcome keikis encourage them with hormones, etc and know how to keep them alive once they are able to be removed from the plant. Whole new ball game! and not one I would recommend for beginners. (myself included) But, if you have them, may as well give it the old college try!

[DDS2007]

more info to add, over watering induced forming your keikis, but i think you should cut back on the watering, it will make a healthier parent plant which can support a healthier keiki.
if your keiki's growth slowed down, try to lower the spike that's holding it to a small pot filled with potting medium , it will start producing more roots soon after.

[andyt]

Like you say, PhalPal, might as well give it a go...

They do look very healthy, and so does the parent plant I have to say.
The plant has been very happy in it's spot for a year or so, flowering twice along the way.

It's a Dendrobium, which is now also growing a new stem from the base. could it be that just the stem with the keikis is on its way out, and so is reproducing? The rest really does seem okay, and growing new leaves
I don't think I've given it too much water, just not enough rest, keeping it on it's normal regimen over winter instead of stopping it.

I'm asking as I'd rather not have to move it.

I've been very lucky so far as I've had very little maintenance to do with any of my four orchids - 'bout time it got interesting . . .

[sandra]

Don't know if this is applicable to my situation but in reading these responses to andyt and considering my poor little phal, yes, my plant is stressed out because it's owner was stressed out when she noticed thousands of tiny little ant-like creatures living in the bark. I had cleaned the plant thoroughly and instead of cleaning it with hydrogen peroxide, I grabbed the rubbing alcholol and wha-la.....these keikis were immediately noticeable. Obviously, they were there prior but it wasn't until this big mistake that I noticed them. With this said, I repotted it in fresh bark and gave it a fungicide shower. In my case, this plant has not been overwatered and was in full, incredible bloom just a month prior. So, these are keikis? And should I remove them once their roots are proper length and pot them?

OK, I'm back from trying to get a clear shot of this............

I was able to manage to get a clear photo of what I'm asking. Here goes.... I hope someone will address what I should expect to do.....pretty please....

[andyt]

hey sandra,
I think the replies to me would go for you too. The images you posted are of a dendrobium like mine, so although for different reasons, it would seem we've both got unhappy plants, so they are reproducing to survive. 'Keiki' is apparently Hawaiian for 'baby' (love Wikipedia!), so it doesn't sound too dangerous!!

This seems also to be how these plants can be deliberately propagated, so there must be 'keiki cultivation' advice on here somewhere - particular to dendrobiums. You can certainly start new plants with them. And maybe our parent plants will survive too. Like you, my plant was flowering happily before hand, so we can't have been doing too much wrong.

I'm going to have a look around and I'll post smething back here for you if I find it. It'll be tomorrow now (11.20pm in UK, off to bed), but I won't give up.

fingers crossed for a bit of advice . . .

[siriusmk]

I just noticed my dendrobium just started forming a keiki as well. I think i know what type of dendrobium I have now so hopefully I can destress it. I have not been watering much so hopefully increasing the frequency will help.

[PhalPal]

I had sort of assumed we sere still talking about phals. I don't know anything about Dends and don't know what these new growths are; are you sure they are true keikis? If the plant just finished flowering it is probably moving on to it's next stage of growth and maybe these new growths are just the plant adding more canes? I do know that a phal throwing babies is a last ditch effort to survive.

[andyt]

Sorry, that's my fault. I was talking about both originally, the keikis are on the dendrobium. They are definitely keikis, growng half way up the stems and they have their own aerial roots growing. Dends grow new stems from the base if it's the parent. The same goes for sarahs photos

I've discovered that Dends. should not be watered so much in winter to rest the plant. I kept watering mine once a week and that is why I have keikis.

My Phal. question was how best to make a plant flower. My 2 are just growing more leaves all the time. Maybe I should have rested them too ?

Anyway, do you know if putting them somewhere cooler will help with flowering? A friend has suggested that, but I don't want to stress the (otherwise happy) plants.

[tom499]

it depends on the den. from what i have heard. some like watering thoughout, some dont, some just like abit.

my bamboo orchid, very close to a den. but not actually a den. ( i think) has a keikei gowing very nicely, as well as around 5 or 6 new "branches" and on at least one has a flower shoot growing, and others are showing signs of flowering too!

so there you go, keikei and flowers on a (almost) den. watered once a month through winter

[PhalPal]

andyt - phals set their spikes in the autumn when temps drop. I put mine outside for about 6 weeks when my overnight temp drops to the 50-60 degree range and then bring them back inside. Now, I am in So California where 50 is freezing for us! Putting your plants out like this may not be possible in your area; however some houses get that cool (inside) in the winter. Also, your plants may not be getting enough light; they will not bloom without enough light. It sounds healthy enough if it is continuing to grow leaves and roots. Try more light for now and give it cooler temps in the fall.

[andyt]

thanks for the replies, we're getting there . . .
I guess there isn't really too much wrong. My Phals are growing leaves nicely, they are in a south facing room, but a couple of metres inside, away from the windows. Whe they were in flower (as bought) they held onto them for about 3 months and continued to devlop more, so I do think they are happy where they are. I can move them to a cool spot in our basement (with good light) like you suggest, later in the year.

My Den. I think is fine too. I'll have a go at bringing the keikis on, and see what happens to the parent. It is growing a new branch, so must be okay (?).
It is on a north facing window ledge though, so maybe it should come into the front room with the others.

I just need to be patient.

[PhalPal]

andyt - Given your description, I doubt if your phals are getting enough light. I have 2 very large, south facing windows (6X8 feet each) in a very sunny part of the world. With my phals 2-3 meters away and they did not get enough light, not even to grow leaves. The windows are tinted which I do not think is a common practice in England?
I have moved them on to the window sill and they are much happier, however I'm looking for a new location now that the very hot summer sun is here. My experience with England was not a sunny one! Your phals might be just fine very close to your south facing window. I bought a light meter and it was great in determining how much light I was getting, and it was remarkable how quickly the reading dropped just a few feet from the window. One thing I believe we have all done is experiment - try different locations and be consistent for at least one entire growing cycle. (a full year?) By this time next year you will know what works best for your plants in your specific environment. Good Luck!

[andyt]

That's a great idea PhalPal. I have two similar sized phals, so i'm going to move one of them onto the window sill and see how it does this year.
They are identical plants and totally in sync with each other as far as growing leaves etc., so it's a good opportunity to see the difference it will make.

I placed them further into the room as I thought direct sun was bad . . .


oh, how I wish I need to tint my windows . . .
sigh

[kmarch]

Hi andyt,

Your keikis were caused by the watering through the dry period. Soft-canes grow plant (leaves and canes) when they are getting watered and grow flowers after a dry winter. You are coming into spring in the UK now. Spring-summer is the growing season for soft-canes so the plant is expecting to be watered now. Do not give them a dry rest now. You probably won't get any flowers this year but the important thing is to care for the plant according to its annual growing and blooming cycle. So water it this spring and summer (very little or no fertilizer) and taper off to no water in Autumn. Give it firly bright light in winter, but no water, and let it get cool (it cantolerate as low as 5-7C). At some point in the winter you'll probably see some nodes on the cane swelling and you'll be tempted to water.....don't. Wait until you can clearly see they are buds then begin to occasionally water very sparingly.

Regarding the confusing, conflicting culture info about Dendrobiums:
Dendrobiums are wildly diverse in their cultural requirements, from hot dry regions to cold wet mountainous and everything inbetween. Soft-cane culture is different from hard cane culture, which is again different from the tropical Dens, and different from the cold, wet growing miniatures. Unfortunately, much of the culture info, especially that found on the web is horribly general and vague. I frequently see "Dendrobium Culture Sheets" that give vague overgeneralized cultural info as if all Dendrobiums require the exact same culture. Just as unfortunate is the confusion heaped upon new growers who don't yet know about the differences between the cultural requirements of the different groups of Dendrobiums.

So what's a new grower to do? I strongly recommend 2 things: 1) as soon as you get a new Dendrobium (or better yet, before you buy one) find out what kind it is (soft-cane, hard-cane, etc., etc.) and look for cultural info specific to your kind of Den.; 2) Ignore any Dendrobium cultural info that is vague and generalized and which does not address the unique requirements of the different kinds of Dendrobiums. If you encounter one of these over generalized culture sheets, don't bother trying to figure out what kind they're talking about, just ignore it and look elsewhere.

Oh and one more thing, ask lots and lots and lots of questions!

Cheers

[andyt]

thanks for the info kmarch, it's much appreciated. I've pasted your answer into a notebook I keep for these things, for future reference.

I didn't realise how many different types of these plants there were. I don't know which mine is, but (hopefully) I've attached a photo from when it was in flower. Maybe someone could ID it for me.

I certainly agree about the general info everywhere, it's what made me turn to this forum for answers and I'm so glad I did.

Thank you all so much for your replies and trying to help me.

[PhalPal]

Beautiful blooms andyt! What I have learned from this discussion is that I never want to attempt to grow Dends.....

[andyt]

yeah, me too . . . whoops ! too late.
think I'll be taking it along to my local orchid society, let someone else 'show me how' (tee hee). I'll let you know how they get on.
cute pets, by the way.