Need help with a hybrid name...oh the confusion!

[Shannara]

Okay...I am poking around in OrchidWiz trying to add in my grow list. Well I came across and insane name on an orchid tag that is a combination of so many hybrids I want to make sure that the final name I came up with in OrchidWiz is correct.

So the tag says (Lc. Edgard Van Belle x C. intermedia) x Blc. Magic Meadow 'Green Genius' 4w (not sure why there is a 4w or if it is part of the name?).

I first found out that Lc. Edgard Van Belle is now C. Edgard Van Belle. I then did a hybrid check with C. Edgard Van Belle X C. intermedia and came up with C. Village Chief Cuba. See below screen shot:




Then I looked into the Blc. Magic Meadow 'Green Genius' which is now Rlc. Magic Meadow as seen below:




Alright now I had to combine C. Village Chief Cuba X Rlc. Magic Meadow and came up with Rlc. EZO Robin's Magic. Screen shots below.






So is this the correct final name? What happens to the Cultivar 'Green Genius' in all this? Is the final name just Rlc. EZO Robin's Magic? My brain hurts now!

Shann~

[Dendian]

You got it! The final name of your plant is......

Rlc. EZO Robin's Magic

Good Job!

The 'Green Genius' is part of its parents name, you do not use that for the kids. The 4w might be 4n - denoting that its a triploid (sp?)(has double chromosomes (4)), but its not part of your plant's name either, unless you have the ploidy counted and find out it is also a tripolod (4n).

Good Brain workout - huh?

[Shannara]

Originally Posted by Dendian

You got it! The final name of your plant is......

Rlc. EZO Robin's Magic

Good Job!

The 'Green Genius' is part of its parents name, you do not use that for the kids. The 4w might be 4n - denoting that its a triploid (sp?)(has double chromosomes (4)), but its not part of your plant's name either, unless you have the ploidy counted and find out it is also a tripolod (4n).

Good Brain workout - huh?

Oh boy...what on earth is a ploidy? LOL

Thanks for the verification on the hybrid. My head was really starting to spin for a minute. I had to walk away from my computer and clear my head for a sec!

Shann~

[kmarch]

Shann I think you've got it. As Dian said, the cultivar names get dropped when you go to the final name. But I would save all of that info on which cultivars of which parents were used. This is like a pedigree for an orchid.

[Shannara]

Originally Posted by kmarch

Shann I think you've got it. As Dian said, the cultivar names get dropped when you go to the final name. But I would save all of that info on which cultivars of which parents were used. This is like a pedigree for an orchid.

Thanks Kevin! Should I note the parents cultivar info in the notes part of the Journal or would I do this somewhere else? I am still playing around with my grow list and journal aspect of the program. I was thinking I will put a new tag in the pot but keep the old one also.

Also a question on a match for a species I was checking. All of my C. leopoldii have checked out as the name being current and correct. But the name for my C. leopoldii var. alba came back as C. tigrina? Why is the name different for the alba? Also, is the correct name C. tigrina or C. tigrina var. alba? I am going to drive you all crazy with these name questions!

My head is hurting again! LOL

Shann~

[tangers40]

Originally Posted by Dendian

The 4w might be 4n - denoting that its a triploid (sp?)(has double chromosomes (4)), but its not part of your plant's name either, unless you have the ploidy counted and find out it is also a tripolod (4n).

actually, triploid would be designated with 3n. 4n is called tetraploid.

(latin roots and all that good stuff....trip=triple=3 while tetra=4)

[rcb]

Originally Posted by Shannara

All of my C. leopoldii have checked out as the name being current and correct. But the name for my C. leopoldii var. alba came back as C. tigrina? Why is the name different for the alba? Also, is the correct name C. tigrina or C. tigrina var. alba? I am going to drive you all crazy with these name questions!

My head is hurting again! LOL

Shann~

Current accepted names for leopoldii, the standard form and the alba is tigrina.

World Checklist of Selected Plant Families: Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew

World Checklist of Selected Plant Families: Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew

Where did you see that leopoldii is current?

[RebelCowgirl]

Lol ok this is a little off subject but when I saw the lineage on the orchids it made me think of horse registration. In horses it's called blood lines, so in orchids would it be called pollen lines??? I'm sorry I know that was dumb but when that popped in my head it made me giggle, so I just thought I would share it

[orchids4me]

Originally Posted by RebelCowgirl

Lol ok this is a little off subject but when I saw the lineage on the orchids it made me think of horse registration. In horses it's called blood lines, so in orchids would it be called pollen lines??? I'm sorry I know that was dumb but when that popped in my head it made me giggle, so I just thought I would share it

I don't know about that but how I know it is.... The first name in a cross on a tag is the pod parent. The 2 name on a tag is the pollen parent. If sib ifollowed by name is a chid form same flask like sister or brother, if self. Its its own pollen, etc

[Dendian]

Originally Posted by tangers40

actually, triploid would be designated with 3n. 4n is called tetraploid.

(latin roots and all that good stuff....trip=triple=3 while tetra=4)

Thanks, I got it all mixed up ...

Ploidy has to do with how many chromosomes a plant has Shann - and usually the ones with 4 (tetraploid, thank you tangers40) are stronger plants than the ones with 2. If they cross ones with 4 with ones with 2 they get 3 which is usually sterile, but not always. Ploidy is important for breeding or showing plants - and its nice to have 4n because they do grow better and produce bigger flowers. I am still learning about this - because it gets more complicated when they start crossing the fertile 3n or when you start throwing plants with higher chromosome count in the mix.

I keep the parentage information if I have it in my plant main screen under notes. Things like cultivar name x self - or two cultivar crosses - or if I have the parents' names (like you do).

[plantloverlisa]

That's not a dumb question Jenny, it is just easier to refer to it as a pedigree. It is a universal term so it works for horses, dogs, orchids, etc..

[Shannara]

Originally Posted by rcb

Current accepted names for leopoldii, the standard form and the alba is tigrina.

World Checklist of Selected Plant Families: Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew

World Checklist of Selected Plant Families: Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew

Where did you see that leopoldii is current?

Hey Renee...I have been adding my orchids to OrchidWiz then hitting that "Match" button and finding out if the name is updated. It didn't update the name to anything new for my leopoldii...I have two different cultivars and then the alba.



You can see that there isn't even a synonym showing...just C. leopoldii. So are you saying that both my leopoldii are tigrina and the alba is what now; C. tigrina var alba? Thanks for helping me!

Originally Posted by Dendian

Thanks, I got it all mixed up ...

Ploidy has to do with how many chromosomes a plant has Shann - and usually the ones with 4 (tetraploid, thank you tangers40) are stronger plants than the ones with 2. If they cross ones with 4 with ones with 2 they get 3 which is usually sterile, but not always. Ploidy is important for breeding or showing plants - and its nice to have 4n because they do grow better and produce bigger flowers. I am still learning about this - because it gets more complicated when they start crossing the fertile 3n or when you start throwing plants with higher chromosome count in the mix.

I keep the parentage information if I have it in my plant main screen under notes. Things like cultivar name x self - or two cultivar crosses - or if I have the parents' names (like you do).

Thank you! I am going to have to read up on this more too...all this new info is making my head kinda hurt. LOL

And thanks everyone for your input too!

Shann~

[phalaephila]

Shann~

When I look up C. leopoldii in OrchidWiz (I have version 8.02), it clearly states "KEW: C. tigrina is accepted species for C. leopoldii"

When I bring up the profile page for the species, it is listed as "Cattleya [C.] tigrina (syn. Cattleya leopoldii)"

Not sure if this is a recent development, I just recently upgraded my OrchidWiz with the newest update.

jeanne

[rcb]

Shann, yes leopoldii is an outdated name. So almost all leopoldii are just tigrina, not var. alba. If you look at the second link i posted, the leopoldii var. alba is just tigrina.

To tell the truth, I'm surprised that orchidwiz doesn't have this info. For what you pay for it, I would expect it to be current on names, at least back to the last update which is quarterly right?

This isn't that recent of a change, defnitely more than a few months I know there is a post on here using the tigrine (syn leopoldii) from over a year ago.

[rcb]

And a comment about the 4N. 4N does not necessarily mean better. Plants tend to be bigger yes as they have double the chromosomes. BUT, double a bad gene is not always a good thing.

So 4N can be better than 2N, or not.

All you can know for sure about 4Ns are that they have double the chromosomes.

[otis 226]

The one thing Great about orchid names is if you don't like one or find it too hard to pronounce, just have a bit of patience... its sure to be changed fairly quickly!
Tony

[MelissaSE]

Originally Posted by Dendian

Thanks, I got it all mixed up ...

Ploidy has to do with how many chromosomes a plant has Shann - and usually the ones with 4 (tetraploid, thank you tangers40) are stronger plants than the ones with 2. If they cross ones with 4 with ones with 2 they get 3 which is usually sterile, but not always...

Interesting! In daylilies, if you cross a tetraploid with a diploid (2n), you get... nothing. Believe me, I've tried! I've never heard of any triploids in daylilies.

And as far as pedigrees go, in dogs and horses etc. the male parent is listed first, with the female parent second. Opposite with plants, apparently!

[Shannara]

Originally Posted by rcb

Shann, yes leopoldii is an outdated name. So almost all leopoldii are just tigrina, not var. alba. If you look at the second link i posted, the leopoldii var. alba is just tigrina.

To tell the truth, I'm surprised that orchidwiz doesn't have this info. For what you pay for it, I would expect it to be current on names, at least back to the last update which is quarterly right?

This isn't that recent of a change, defnitely more than a few months I know there is a post on here using the tigrine (syn leopoldii) from over a year ago.

OrchidWiz shows that the leopoldii is a trigrina if you do a basic search. If you are using the Match feature on your orchid grow list it doesn't appear to be updating it to the current name. Must be an error in the program.

Another weird one I have run into is Encyclia tampensis var. alba is just coming up as Encyclia tampensis. I don't understand how two orchids whose blooms are so different have the same name now? How can a vendor sell an orchid as Encyclia tampensis and not have the name reflect it's an alba?



Shann~

[Dendian]

Shann, Orchid Wiz does not differentiate in the main screen between the ssp/var/f/cultivars - you need to put it in down below when you put your plant in. If you look down a bit under the name (still in the pink box) you can see where you can put Subspecies/Variety/Form/Cultivar. Type the alba in the variety box and it will come up in the name above.

[JLu]

You're making this unnecessarily hard. There is no botanically described alba variey of Encyclia tampensis. Therefore the plant is just E.tampensis..makes no difference whether it's white or normally colored. If you wish to signify your plant as white you can say E. tampensis (hv. white) or E. t. (white form) or anything similar. The only thing that you cannot say (and be correct) is Encyclia tampensis var. alba because there is no such name in botanical literature. In general taxonomy does not consider color a defining characteristic. But they confuse the issue by describing some color forms and not others..go figure.

Melissa there are triploid daylilies and they are universally sterile. You are correct that you can seldom successfully breed a diploid daylily with a tetraploid one. The cross almost never takes, but it does more often in orchids. The Ditch Lily, Hemerocallis fulva is a triploid and is sterile, but it produces new growths via rhizome so rapidly that many states classify it as invasive.