Phal with serious problems

[pondrthis]

I received a Phal in July from an online vendor as a birthday gift. It's my first orchid, and my first medium-to-high maintenance plant. It's been a nightmare trying to keep it healthy; I'm getting demoralized and I want to know if it's time to give up, or if there's still hope.

It originally had four leaves and a solid but tiny root system. I don't have sufficient light coming in the window, so I installed two 24" T8 bulbs under a kitchen cabinet, about 1/1.5 feet away from the leaves of the phal. I've tried a multitude of watering patterns, but all of them seem to lead to root rot. I took off one leaf after it started showing signs of infection, but it was late enough that it spread to a second leaf.

Now the phal's been repotted, with its roots cut down to the healthy ones, and the second leaf has been removed much earlier in its infection course. Suspicious spots on the main body of the plant were scraped away with a hot knife. Only a few, short viable roots remain, and they're mostly wide-angle roots (i.e., ones that are near the surface when in the pot). The medium it's been repotted in is Miracle Gro orchid medium, which I've read mixed reviews on.

A new leaf has started growing, but after reaching a critical size (~1/5th of the length of the full-grown leaves) it turned purple.

After repotting, I watered with a little less than a cup of water. Now, days later, the largest leaf is floppy as if I overwatered... the medium seems dry, though. I'm sick of experimenting at the cost of this organism's life, and I want to know what kind of watering regimen would be best given the circumstances.

[Ron]

Hi welcome to the Geeks forum.
Phalls are a tropical plant and need constant warmth, good supply of fresh air and a medium amount of light.
Min temp at night of 62 to 65F. day temps up to 85F are quiet ok.
for the leaves to go off so quickly, seems some culture is wrong!
Can you update on you growing area warmth.

[NBAMA]

As soon as you get up to five posts you can post pictures. Pictures of the plant and some details of the growing conditions are extremely helpful.

[RebelCowgirl]

Hi and welcome!!!! Its nice to see another Tennesseean on here. There are folks on here that can help you with your orchid, just post 5 random post so you can post a picture.

[otis 226]

Don't give up hope just yet. These plants are tough and really want to live. I'd keep it dry for right now, (don't water again until you've made 5 posts and can show everyone what you're dealing with in pics).
Good luck, and WELCOME!
Tony

[pondrthis]

I have described the growing conditions in detail, if you'll refer to the OP. It's in a kitchen, under 2 24" T8 fluorescent bulbs. Temperatures are in the high 60s-low 70s, since it's winter here, but have been in the high 70s-low 80s before (i.e., during summer).

Natural light is not an option due to the position of my apartment in the complex... courtyard window, first floor, in the shadow of a 6 story parking garage. (If it were up to me, I'd have never gotten a plant in the first place, since this lighting issue makes me ill-equipped to care for it... but it was a birthday present.)

Due to the amount of root rot I've pulled from the plant, I'm fairly certain this is a watering regimen and potting medium issue. The leaves weren't "lost" as in dropped, they became visibly sick with classic fungal infection/root rot symptoms and they were removed. What appeared to me as a fungal lesion (dark, wet, soft area on the back of the plant core) was excised using a sanitized (i.e., placed over a flame) steak knife. There are only 4-5 inches worth (if placed end-to-end) of healthy root left.

Really all I'm asking is "what potting medium should I use, and how often should the plant be watered in that medium". I've been reading too many websites and applying too many mixed techniques to it... it's historically been in denser medium than most orchids, I think, and since I've been watering at schedules made for fresh sphag/bark/other loose media I've been killing the plant.

[-k-]

Check out this thread!
Skewer use for watering of orchids

PS: Watering schedule will vary depending on the individual growing environment so I cannot really say for sure how often, but the skewer method will help you!

PPS: The purple color on the leaves could simply be the plant is receiving high level of light and may benefit if moved a bit further from the light source. As mentioned by others whenyou get a chance post some pics it will help the folks here better identify problems and corrective measures!

[RebelCowgirl]

Pictures help to judge what condition your orchid is in. It would be best to start with AOS culture sheets, here is a link AOS Culture Sheets

[pondrthis]

Post # 3:

I'm new to this "wait and see" method of solving problems.

[pondrthis]

Post # 4:

Because I'm an engineer. We like to charge in and get things done.

[pondrthis]

Post # 5:

So that subtracts further from the morale.

(Pictures incoming.)

[Daethen]

Ok, I don't know if this will help or not. I personally hate miracle grow orchid mix. It is too much like dirt. If you can find some bark or some sphagnum moss you would be better off in my opinion. Some will tell you not to use sphag, but if you keep it loose instead of compacting it around the roots it usually does ok. There is a lot to learn about orchids, but the hardest for me was that you need to water them less than you think and then ignore them a bit. I fussed my first few to death. Sounds like you are trying all you can. Pictures help us see if it is something we have dealt with before.

[Emma Grey]

Just an idea, but what size pot is your plant in? It's possible that the pot is too large, which is causing the medium to stay wet to long. This leads to root rot.

Personally, I prefer a medium bark mix for my phals, but I don't use medium from big box stores because one of my plants got mealies from that medium.

If I were you, I would repot the orchid into the smallest container possible so the medium dries out faster. You may consider using a small tupperware with holes burned in the sides and bottom. You can even put packing peanuts in at the bottom of the container to provide airflow and to facilitate quick drying out of the medium. I had a plant in a small tupperware for months after I stupidly hacked almost all of the roots off (it was my first repot attempt and I got carried away). It's finally starting to come back to life, but it takes a while.

[pondrthis]

http://i44.tinypic.com/xqff4.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/2ynntjq.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/iqvfax.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/vyvcqg.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/24o50ec.jpg

The lights look dark, and they kinda are... just not that dark. The pics were taken with an iPhone, which is adjusting its brightness level to the reflections of the fluorescent light off the stainless steel counter.

EDIT: Whew, that was bad. Apparently the iPhone is a lot higher res than I thought.

EDIT2: Last night I was thinking about tupperware. No kidding. I definitely think the pot is too big for the roots, but I (still) don't know when to water.

[Emma Grey]

Hmm, I have two comments: 1) That medium looks too fine for my liking, and 2) the plant is potted in a glazed pot? Most orchid growers don't use these because they don't breathe, which means they don't facilitate water evaporation or let air get to the roots. Orchid roots like air flow.

My advice is to repot in a plastic or unglazed pot with holes in the sides and bottom for airflow, and to use a chunkier medium. As I said in my previous post, that pot may also be too big for your plant since it has so few roots left.

[Daethen]

Ok, the pot is glazed so it won't let the medium dry out as quick. If there are not very many good roots, then it very well may be overpotted. All in all it doesn't look all that bad at the moment. When you cut into the leaves, you can seal the cuts with cinnamon (yes the spice). Other than that, it looks ok to me.

[RebelCowgirl]

Wow that potting mix is not good for phals, I personally can not grow anything in bark. I use coir and it works great for me because I tend to over water a tad and it has good drainage. Since you are in Nashville there is a Hydroponics store called Worms Way you can get pots, medium, and even lights. The manager Ashley is very nice and she can help you with whatever you need.

[rcb]

sorry a bit off topic, but why are glazed pots bad? Plastic doesn't "breathe" and people use plastic pots all the time.

As long as a glazed pot has drainage so the plant doesn't sit in water, how is that different than plastic pots?

Always wondered about this.

[pondrthis]

I just repotted in a shallow tupperware dish, rectangular shape, 2 holes drilled in each side and 10 holes in the bottom. Should have good airflow once I can replace the miracle grow medium with something else.

I hadn't considered that the reason I always read that orchids like to fill their pots with roots is so that there is little stale water in the medium. Fail on my part.

[BGGraham1]

Ditto on the glazed pot that is too big. I had one in a similar condition and put it in an unglazed terracotta (clay) pot. Its doing quite well now. The clay helps the medium dry out a little quicker. Mine is in a mix I make myself of medium coconut husk chips, medium fir bark, #3 perlite, and #3 charcoal. Its nice and airy, and I use it for pretty much everything. Of course, you can also use the plastic slotted pot or the tupperware / glad wear / ziploc bowls with the holes burned in with the same medium.

I also second the suggestion of the skewer method. It really helps.

[-k-]

I agree if the plants root systems has been greatly compromised then a smaller pot will be a better fit for recovery... But I don't know what size pot it was previously in to really comment on that... or how many actual viable roots are left... but the plant doesn't look all to bad. . ..
Many folks use different potting mediums, miracle grow is a dense mix which requires less watering but works nonetheless. There are many many potting mediums that work fine you just have to adjust your watering habits to accommodate the mix. Just be certain to read up on the culture sheet and watering link to get you moving in the right direction. Of course should you have any questions / concerns please feel free...

[Emma Grey]

pndrthis - I hope your plant does well now that it's in a smaller container. As I mentioned before, I put a plant of mine in one of those and it slowly improved. Right now it's putting on a bunch of new roots! I'm sure yours will do the same.

Renee - I always assumed glazed pots were bad because there weren't any holes in the sides of the pot... but I could be completely wrong. I use and love plastic pots and you're right, they don't breathe either aside from the slits in the sides and bottom. Hmm...

[bumpman]

So nice to see all the willing advice for this suffering Phal. It sure looks savable, and luckily Phals are the most adaptable in being repotted. As for pots and media I suggest thinking about the availability of air and oxygen more than moisture. Just google Phals in nature to see them growing on the side of a tree over a humid swamp (of course not all are like that). My Phals love SH or large bark in unglazed orchid pots, and especially mounts. Best advice I've gotten from the masters is "think epiphyte" and since then it's been relatively easier for me (knock lots of wood) in planting in a pot or whatever. Good luck with your Phal!

[orchids4me]

Originally Posted by rcb

sorry a bit off topic, but why are glazed pots bad? Plastic doesn't "breathe" and people use plastic pots all the time.

As long as a glazed pot has drainage so the plant doesn't sit in water, how is that different than plastic pots?

Always wondered about this.

Renee,
I can't remember if it was a book or online, but its not just that in a glazed pot it can't breath if its potted in a pot glazed on the inside it was toxic to orchids. I read this like 4 years ago somewhere. I just wish I could remember because I use to go to barns and noble a lot and browse the orchid books and pick one out to buy one at a time and surf the web while having coffee so I read that somewhere. And also bad to have the dish attached (the ones that don't seperate from the pot. ). But I wish I could remember where I read it, I don't belong to any other forums.... I'm wondering if it was in that orchids made easy book ( has some cool tips but is vague at times ) ....

[Leafmite]

I use lava rock as a medium with plastic net pots or mount my orchids. They are so much easier this way. Lava rock allows lots of air around the roots and doesn't break down so yearly repotting isn't necessary. The drawback with lava rock is that if your water has minerals in it, the minerals build up on the rock so using pure water and an organic fertilizer works best. With mounting, more frequent watering is required but you don't have to worry as much about water quality. Mounting orchids is easy, too. Take any non-toxic, non-metallic, porous, long-lasting material and fasten the orchid on. Clay pots, upside-down will even work but a small log can look really cool. You can set this on a dish to avoid drips. Good luck,
leafmite

[Fishmom]

Originally Posted by rcb

sorry a bit off topic, but why are glazed pots bad? Plastic doesn't "breathe" and people use plastic pots all the time.

As long as a glazed pot has drainage so the plant doesn't sit in water, how is that different than plastic pots?

Always wondered about this.

I'm just talking off the top of my head here, but many glazes have metallic and salt components to them, particularly lead. There are others I can't remember--it's been a long time since I took a ceramics class! That's why some ceramics are not supposed to be used for food. Is it possible that the chemical substances leach in the presence of the water given to the plant?

pndrthis, I second (or third) the suggestion that you use a bamboo skewer to assess the moisture content of your medium. It's far-and-away the best method for keeping track of what's really happening inside the pot. -k- gave you the link upthread.

[rcb]

Fishmom, that is a reason that could be, although I doubt all glazes are toxic. And isn't lead supposed to be banned in the US? I know it was used for white in the past, but nowadays I thought they used TiO2. If you think about it, they sell glazed ceramic pots for kitchen windowsill herb gardens, I would kind of think if the glazes are harmful, then they wouldn't be using them in pots that are meant to grow plants that we eat. Well at least not legally lol.

But, it has been posted on here many many times that you shouldn't use glazed ceramic pots because they don't breathe, and they don't, but plastic doesn't either. So that made absolutely no sense to me and I just wondered why.

Yes, some plastic pots have side slits or holes, but again many don't and they work just fine.

I guess what I'm in a roundabout way of getting too, is I always suspected the glazed pot thing was another internet myth, that is repeated by many, quite often, with no real reason. And I was trying to find out if it is true or not.

Emma - just wanted to add, I'm not picking on you. Many people state this, and I just had the time and thought to question this time.

[Emma Grey]

Renee - No problem. I didn't feel picked on at all.

The truth is, I'd heard the no ceramics thing and was just parroting it back to the OP without thinking much about it. I do use plastic pots (slits or no) and they work really well for me. So, who knows about glazed ceramic?

[-k-]

About the glazed pot issue.. I found some info... check out this link and read the section about glazes...
Art Safety Training Guide

[rcb]

K - thank you.

So basically don't use glazed containers because it might have some heavy metals that could leach.

ok there is the answer.

I have to say I'm really surprised they still allow lead to be used. As for the other heavy metals, they are used all the time in products still, but lead I thought was done with.

[Daethen]

Lead can't be banned altogether. I still use it in my stained glass work.

[koshki]

Pondrthis, welcome to Orchid Geeks! Your post seems to have prompted Renee and others to "ponder" the glazed pot question, lol! I do use plenty of glazed pots, but only as cache pots when displaying blooming plants.

Your phal looks much healthier than I had expected, so I think you have a fair chance at growing it successfully.

I exclusively use clear plastic pots for my phals for a reason that I think will appeal to the "take charge and get results" engineer in you...I can see roots growing! I use a medium that holds moisture well, so I also watch for condensation in the pot. When the condensation is gone, it's time to water again. My phals reward me with lots of roots to watch grow around the sides of the pots, which sustain and interest me while I wait for the spikes to show!

I hate bark for phals, but that's me.

[Leafmite]

I agree that the information found can be confusing but the reason has to do with varying growing conditions (airflow, heat, temp, humidity, light, amount of healthy roots, etc.). When I give phals as gifts, I put them in lava rock to make growing them easy. The 'difficult' part of growing them is to be careful not to get water in the crown, not to let them sit in water, finding a window that gives them bright but not direct light, and to find the medium that works best for you. Once these criteria are met, they grow without any trouble. Good luck!
Leafmite

[Leafmite]

Ps. I'm ChemE and I had to do everything the practical way.

[Mamarazzi]

Originally Posted by BGGraham1

Ditto ...

I also second the suggestion of the skewer method. It really helps.

I have a question on the skewer method. I'm afraid to do it. What if you puncture/nick a root? I'm assuming you always try to do it in the same spot? And if you're doing it once a week, that's a lot of nicking, so the root could take infection or just die altogether...?

[Fishmom]

Mamarazzi, if you look at the bamboo skewers used for cooking, they have one pointed end. That is the end to use when poking down into the medium. It will slide between chunks and roots and not do any damage to speak of. I do try to use the same spot so if a root has grown around the skewer, there is no damage. I have skewers in almost all my pots, and I don't have problems with damaged roots.