Seed and pollen Parent, does it matter?

[brianb]

I have an orchid L. purpurata X C. loddigesii which has no registered name. However, C. loddigesii X L. purpurata is registered as Lc Sallieri a very old orchid registered in 1895. Can I call my plant by this name. I.e. Does it matter which is the seed and pollen parent?

[Brooke]

It doesn't matter which is the pod parent. You have Sallieri and with those parents it should be gorgeous.

Brooke

[JLu]

Brian, it does not matter in the registration system which plants are the pod/pollen parent. Any cross between two plants has the same hybrid name.

However it does matter in other senses. When you go to look up the hybrid in the RHS system, it only appears in the pod/parent relationship of the original registered hybrid. So to see if a particular cross is registered you must look up both combinations since you would seldom know how the original was registered.

Secondly, it could make a big difference in the hybrid cultivar because mitochondrial DNA and chloroplast DNA come 100% from the pod parent. So it's important information that is not captured by the current registration system.

In terms of the hybrid name it is meaningless. Any two parents in any combination are the same hybrid name. That does not mean that the seedlings themselves are the same...they are not.

[jpyerry]

I was under the impression that in terms of nomenclature, the pod parent is listed first followed by the pollen donor, ie Genus species 'Pod Parent' x Genus species 'Pollen Donor' would be correct and not Genus species 'Pollen Parent' x Genus species 'Pod Parent', or in a hybrid: Genus Pod Parent Plant x Genus Pollen Donor Plant. Of course, there is a good chance I am completely wrong about this.

The whole nomenclature thing can get for convoluted and confusing, and it really seems like there can be a lot of misinformation out there.

[rcb]

Justin, yes when a cross is written out with the parents names, (not always a species btw) the pod parent is listed first. But as a cross can only be registered once, if someone remakes the cross with the previous pollen parent as the pod parent the second time, a new hybrid name is not issued. Many growers (unfortunately not all) when doing this will put the parents names in () after the hybrid name if it is a backwards cross, so you know it.

As for the misinformation out there, remember there is only one valid source for orchid hybrids names, the RHS orchid registrar. That is it. Everything else comes from that, and misinformation happens because of people being people.

So if you have a plant that has the parents names listed, instead of the hybrid name, then simply check both ways on the RHS website if you want to know if it has been registered. Not that big a deal. But make sure to not include any clonal names, they have absolutely no bearing at all on a hybrid name, so anything in single quotes is irrelevant when looking up a hybrid name.

If you want to look up a hybrid, just go straight to the RHS site. Don't bother around with the other garbage out there on the web.

[JLu]

"...... in terms of nomenclature, the pod parent is listed first followed by the pollen donor........."

To extrapolate a little on RCB's excellent post about your issue quoted above....
both RCB and I commented on the RHS orchid registration system. In your quote you mix up the terms "nomenclature" and pod/pollen parent conventions.
It is true that in all plant hybridization (not just orchids) the normal convention is to put the pod parent first. This is nothing but a horticultural practice. Nothing "official" about it. Therefore it is not part of what we call "taxonomic nomenclature" which is a highly structured system defined by the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature (for species plants) and the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants ( for hybrids).

You might think I'm being overly detailed here, but I'm not. There is no connection between the informal practice/convention of listing parents and the very official rules of nomenclature. It's best you separate those in your thinking.

[jpyerry]

Originally Posted by JLu

"...... in terms of nomenclature, the pod parent is listed first followed by the pollen donor........."

To extrapolate a little on RCB's excellent post about your issue quoted above....
both RCB and I commented on the RHS orchid registration system. In your quote you mix up the terms "nomenclature" and pod/pollen parent conventions.
It is true that in all plant hybridization (not just orchids) the normal convention is to put the pod parent first. This is nothing but a horticultural practice. Nothing "official" about it. Therefore it is not part of what we call "taxonomic nomenclature" which is a highly structured system defined by the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature (for species plants) and the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants ( for hybrids).

You might think I'm being overly detailed here, but I'm not. There is no connection between the informal practice/convention of listing parents and the very official rules of nomenclature. It's best you separate those in your thinking.

Good information to know, thanks.

[koshki]

Is "Sallieri" named after the composer?

For such an old cross, it's surprising that there are no awards listed in OW. I'm looking forward to seeing your bloom photos!

[brianb]

Koshki,

I believe the Italian composer was "Salieri" i.e. one L less. Don't believe he would be made famous by an Orchardist. He is believed to have plagiarized some of Mozart's works and was accused of poisoning him. Kevin might wish to comment.

Both loddigessii & purpurata are of Brazilian/North Eastern Argentinian origin. So I suspect that the originator in RHS is the Mexicon Botanist Fournier. The name is therefore quite possibly a Brazilian/Argentinian family of the day in the late 1800's. However, cannot trace it.

Jlu & Rcb,

Where as I recognize from your answers, that what I have is a Sallieri. i.e. it does not matter which is the seed and Pollen plant. Nevertheless, as the DNA from the pod parent is most significant, I therefore assume that the offspring looks quite different to the offsprings of the reverse crosses. Is that true?

Secondly, how does the Hybridist decide which will be the Seed and Pollen plant?

Brooke,

Attached is the photo

[rcb]

Brian, I don't know, I'm not a breeder and dont keep track of those effects. I'm not sure that the pod parent's DNA is necessarily more significant, just that the "female" passes on the additional stuff.

There are plenty of examples in which the resulting plants do look a lot like the pollen parent - the father.

check out my Marg Putnam post, I'm not seeing much of anything from the pod parent - the mother.

But don't forget, in a seed cross (one specific cross), not all of the children look alike either, especially the more removed a cross is from species.