Parentage

[brianb]

I have two orchids of which I cannot find the parentage. Have searched both through Google and the RHS registration site. The two orchids in question are;

Dendrobium. Cinta Sweet. Introduced the last Q of 2010

Mokara. Gold Nugget.

If anyone is aware would appreciate.

Brianb

[kmarch]

You can look them up yourself here: The International Orchid Register / RHS Gardening

[brianb]

Originally Posted by kmarch

You can look them up yourself here: The International Orchid Register / RHS Gardening

Dr. Marsh,

Yes, I am familiar with the IOR/RHS site but cannot locate the said names on the register. In the Grex column for the names of Citra Sweet & Gold Nugget respectively, the Dendrobium & Mokara plants have drawn a blank.

Brian B

[willowbanks]

Brian, both names aren't valid.

Your Mokara Gold Nugget could be Renantanda (Rntda.) Gold Nugget, very possible knowing how slack orchid traders are with identification and labelling of plants.

Mokara (Arachnis x Ascocentrum x Vanda) and Renantanda (Renanthera x Vanda) have the same growing requirements, you won't know any more until it flowers.

Your Dendrobium Cinta Sweet name is dodgy, without seeing the plant I suspect it is a hard cane Den. and has oriiginally come from Sien Orchids Indonesia. The only way to find out more would be to contact them.


Bill

[JLu]

"Your Mokara Gold Nugget could be Renantanda (Rntda.) Gold Nugget, very possible knowing how slack orchid traders are with identification and labelling of plants."


I do not see how you can make that leap of faith just because of the grex name Gold Nugget....you can't

Let's face it, neither of the subject hybrids is registered. As a result you have no reliable way to determine the breeding. This is becoming more and more common with Asian hybrids made for mass marketing.

[willowbanks]

Jlu, I haven't determined any thing as to the identity of these two hybrids, only a course of action for Brian if he wishes to take the next step to try and identify his plants.

I think you need to read my post again and maybe this time you won't jump to conclusions.

Bill

[Anton]

Brian have you got photos of these two plants and flowers ?

May help the issue.

[JLu]

OK Willowbanks, but you said, "Your Mokara Gold Nugget could be Renantanda (Rntda.) Gold Nugget......"

Suggesting to a beginner that his plant might be something that you have no legitimate basis for is dangerous because many will run off with information and re-tag a plant. If you didn't mean it that way, good, but that's what it looked like to me.

[brianb]

Gents,

I am a Newbie to orchids.

Attached are the photos of the Orchids in question. I bought them along with fifteen others from commercial yards in Singapore, the names of which held up & checked with the register. Those in question are:

Dendrobium Cintra Sweet & Mokara Gold Nugget.

Cintra Sweet is positioned as a very new Hybrid being introduced in Asia in late Dec 2010. Perhaps it is still in the RHS pipe line.

Mokara Gold Nugget, appears to play a significant part in the cut flower industry here in Asia. It appears well known.

Brianb

[koshki]

Brian, nice plants!

I would hazard a guess that your very pretty dendrobium has some den. phalaenopsis in it. If so, your plant might continue to bloom on old canes. I have one that is quite similar (den. Somsak), and it is rarely out of bloom.

I don't have enough light for vandas, so I can't comment on your Mokara.

[JLu]

Brian, you could be correct that your Cintra Sweet is in the "pipeline". Certainly I have no way to deny that is possible. It would be unusual because the pipeline is not very long and most hybridizers who plan to register something want to get it done before someone else uses the same name. Consider what happens if someone starts selling a new, unregistered hybrid and it becomes very popular. A different person comes along with something similar and registers the successful name as his and takes advantage of the popularity. It could happen.

On the second one, the fact that it is a very popular cut flower is irrelevant to whether it is registered.

Registration certainly does not make a plant more or less desirable as a plant, but it does make the plant uninteresting to the avid hobbyist who wants to know the breeding especially if he might want to get it awarded and/or hybridize with it.

[Stitz]

Originally Posted by JLu

"Your Mokara Gold Nugget could be Renantanda (Rntda.) Gold Nugget, very possible knowing how slack orchid traders are with identification and labelling of plants."


I do not see how you can make that leap of faith just because of the grex name Gold Nugget....you can't

Let's face it, neither of the subject hybrids is registered. As a result you have no reliable way to determine the breeding. This is becoming more and more common with Asian hybrids made for mass marketing.

Originally Posted by JLu

OK Willowbanks, but you said, "Your Mokara Gold Nugget could be Renantanda (Rntda.) Gold Nugget......"

Suggesting to a beginner that his plant might be something that you have no legitimate basis for is dangerous because many will run off with information and re-tag a plant. If you didn't mean it that way, good, but that's what it looked like to me.

Let's face it, JLu, this forum is for hobbyists!


--Stitz--

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by Stitz

Let's face it, JLu, this forum is for hobbyists!

I'm sorry but I must correct this point. This forum is for everyone, regardless of their level of expertise or knowledge of orchids. All levels of expertise are welcome and vital to the educational part of the forum's purpose.

[brianb]

Originally Posted by Stitz

Let's face it, JLu, this forum is for hobbyists!


--Stitz--

Hi Stitz,

That is what I am trying to achieve i.e be a hobbyist. That is why I decided in future only to buy named plants or those with at least the parentage stated. Any tips on avoidind dud labels at the Orchid centers.

The nursery in question is a good member & friend to our Orchid Society so I don't think he deliberately duped me. Thirteen of the fifteen I bought checked out on the ROS register just fine. The two in question did not. Will go see him this afternoon and see what he has to say.

Brian

[brianb]

Originally Posted by JLu

OK Willowbanks, but you said, "Your Mokara Gold Nugget could be Renantanda (Rntda.) Gold Nugget......"

Suggesting to a beginner that his plant might be something that you have no legitimate basis for is dangerous because many will run off with information and re-tag a plant. If you didn't mean it that way, good, but that's what it looked like to me.

JLu,

I think it unlikely to be a Renantanda. My readings on Rntda's suggest that they are mostly Red & Orange due to the predominance of the red in it's Renanthera lineage. Yellow appears to be a rarity. So doubt I could have bought it for $20. Will check it out this afternoon when I go visit the Orchid nursery again.

Thanks again,

Brian

[brianb]

I visited the nursery where I bought the two suspect named plants; Den Cinta Sweet & Mokara Gold Nugget, this afternoon. Seller was so apologetic but insisted that the Mokara plant had been around for some ten years out of Thailand and had in fact won prizes in Malaysia. Nevertheless, he assured me he would trace it's parentage via his friends in Thailand. The Den Cinta Sweet it was later agreed could be Airy Peach. On returning home later this also was shown not to be registered. We live and learn.



Brianb

[brianb]

This morning, I did find the Den Airey Peach (not Airy Peach as the grower stated)in the Quarterly Supplement To The International Registry of Orchid Hybrids (Saunder's list) covering July to Sept 2010 registrations, issued on Dec 2010. In the Dendrobium section it shows two registrations 1) Airey Peach & 2) Airey Peach (misapplied)

It has an interesting footnote which states;

Dendrobium Airey Peach has been identified by Mr. Somsak of T.Orchids, Thailand as Den. Doreen X Den Thailand White. However, flasks have been distributed from an unknown source with the misapplied name Airey Peach & the parentage as Den Burana Green & Den Cruentum. This is temporarily listed in the Register as Airey Peach Misapplied, pending registration under an appropriate name.

May be getting closer now to identifying my new Dendrobium that was originally labeled Citra Sweet.

Brianb

[Stitz]

great detective work, Brian!


--Stitz--

[koshki]

Brian, OrchidWiz lists Airey Peach as 86.4% den. phalaenopsis, while the Airey Peach (misapplied) is 50% den. cruentum and only 14.5% den. phalaenopsis. Unfortunately it does not have photos of either plant, so I can't make a visual comparison. But of the two, my bet would be on your plant being the correctly named Airey Peach.

BTW, den. cruentum is a species, so the name is not capitalized. Kevin is teaching me well!!

[kmarch]

Den cruentum looks very different from Den bigibbum, so in this instance it might be possible to tell them apart by seeing the flowers. Also Den cruentum is, if my memory serves me correct, one of the nigrohirsute dendrobiums. It has fine black hairs on its cane. This charactersitic sometimes show up in the offspring of this species. Does your plant have find black hairs on the cane?

Also note I used the name Den bigibbum and not Den phalaenopsis. Den bigibbum is the currently accepted name.

[koshki]

Originally Posted by kmarch

Also note I used the name Den bigibbum and not Den phalaenopsis. Den bigibbum is the currently accepted name.

See, I told you, Kevin is teaching me well!

[brianb]

Dr. March,

Thank you very much for your input.

Attached are some photos of the plant showing the flower, stem, leaves and cane. We believe that the orchid in question was bred in Thailand where Dendrobium cruentrum is found, however there are no black hairs on stems and leaves and it carries much more than one or two flowers (up to 18 on mine) which is untypical of cruentrum and there is no fragrance.

Did I not read somewhere that Dendrobium phalanopsis was moved to Dendrobium bigibbum but recently reclassified as a species Vappodes phalaenopsis?

Brianb

[brianb]

Hi Kathrine,

Thanks for the information on Airey Peach from Orchidwiz. I have been tempted to download it but would first ask your opinion on its usefulness against cost. I see the full down load is close to US$300. A lot of orchids.

Talking about Dendrobium bigibbum the attached picture is of one of my NOIDs which blooms and blooms for me each year and its beautiful colour reminds me of the photos I have seen of bigibbum, apart from the white dot on the cap. The gold Dendrobium lurking in the background is Shangri-La Singapore.

Brian

[koshki]

Without question, $300 would buy a lot of orchids. My husband bought it for me for Christmas...he has supported my "habit" with gifts like light shelves, a nice camera and that program, without actually buying me any orchids.

I use OW just about every day. Sometimes, like today, it's to look up information on other peoples' plants. For example, your Shangri-La is 50% bigibbum (sorry that name just seems awkward to me).

Other times it's to find out cultural information about plants I have. Last week my coelogyne cristata went from happy to suddenly in trouble (turned yellow), and I looked it up to find that it was probably suffering from heat stress, as its native temperatures rarely go above 80 degrees (it was over 100 here for several days, lows in the 80s). So I took it indoors, and it's looking better.

I also use it to research plants BEFORE I buy, which turns out to be a practical idea (lol!). Included in each species entry are the Baker & Baker culture sheets that are extremely helpful. I frequently look up the size of the plant to determine if I can grow it under the lights I have indoors. Or, in the case of dendrobiums, if it will bloom on old canes or is a repeat bloomer, etc. How much light does it need, what are the recommended media to use, if it needs a dry winter rest, etc., etc. Oh, and photos!

For hybrids, it gives you the lineage of the plant as well as the percentages of each species in its background. You can also research the offspring of those plants.

And you can use it to keep records on your own collection.

I'm sure I'm forgetting something. Award data is patchy and dated, which is the sad result of a silly argument.

I can't imagine growing orchids without it.

[Stitz]

OrchidWiz allows two installations per license. That allows for people to quietly share the cost. It also allows for a "gift" which is how I was first introduced to OW several years ago.

While the current edition OrchidWiz Encyclopedia Version 8.0 does not contain the past two years' AOS awards information due to an ongoing dispute with AOS, Alex has managed to "score" with recent awards info, especially fotos, from the Brasilian, German, South African and New Zealand societies. The Brasilian contribution is especially significant. Alex already included recent Australian awards.


A 20% discount may be secured by using a certain BOARD when ordering the product. I'll leave the name of the BOARD up to your imaginations.

It is definitely worth the price for me. I will consider the AOS AQ+ product as a Happy New Year gift to myself! I saw the last AQ+ beta product. It was improved and complementary to the OW. The awards data allow determined hobbyists to track the origins of awarded plants and to compare fotos.

I agree with everything that Katherine wrote!

--Stitz--

[Stitz]

[Stitz]

Originally Posted by koshki

And you can use it to keep records on your own collection.

That is the ONE use that I have not used. NOTHING beats hand-kept records.

--Stitz--

[koshki]

JLu,
I in no way implied that the software could be shared by two individuals and I am offended that you would suggest that I did.

[Stitz]

the following is a direct quote from Welcome to OrchidWiz Orchid Database Software OrchidWiz Orchid Database Software Home Page

The price includes the ability to install the program on two computers and updates 8.01, 8.02 and 8.03!


--Stitz--

[brianb]

JLu,

I needed to read you posting twice before I realized that it was a reminder on sharing software, raised by an older posting but one not on this thread. Such reminders to protect intellectual property are always worth continued noting.......As you know, my question to Koshki was on the usefulness of Orchidwiz and her reply identified her experience. There was no other intent implied.

Thanks again for all previous inputs and no offense taken on your last.

Brian

[brianb]

Den cruentum looks very different from Den bigibbum, so in this instance it might be possible to tell them apart by seeing the flowers. Also Den cruentum is, if my memory serves me correct, one of the nigrohirsute dendrobiums. It has fine black hairs on its cane. This charactersitic sometimes show up in the offspring of this species. Does your plant have find black hairs on the cane?

Also note I used the name Den bigibbum and not Den phalaenopsis. Den bigibbum is the currently accepted name.

KMarch,

Do you have any observations on the photos I posted(further back in the post) in response to your question?

B

[brianb]

Originally posted by Koshki
I use OW just about every day. Sometimes, like today, it's to look up information on other peoples' plants. For example, your Shangri-La is 50% bigibbum.

Koshki,

There are two registered Dendrobium Shangri-La's

1) Shangri-La Registered in 1957 Den. Lady Hamilton X Den.Pompadour.

2) By Shangril-La Singapore, Registered in 2006. Den. Patolo Sunshine X Den. Pink Spider.

The 50% bigibbum is probably the first as both parents are quite deep red.

Mine is the second and shown in the thumbnail photos. A big plant with lots of flowers. Would be interested in its results on OW?

brian

[JLu]

Quoting from the marketing hype is not sufficient. The first question in the Q&A regarding the license agreement is:

Q: I have desktop at home and also a laptop. Do I need to buy a separate license of OrchidWiz Encyclopedia for each?
A: OrchidWiz Encyclopedia can be run on a maximum of two computers per named user. This gives you the flexibility to run the program on the computer at your main location (home or work) as well as on a mobile computer such as a laptop. Installation of the software requires activation (click here for an explanation of activations).

[brianb]

JLu,

Flattery will get you everywhere my friend. Since retirement the only things I can get mad at are my two dogs and they just look at me and wag their tails.

As you know Ow what is your opinion. Koshki has given me her fair assessment.

1) does it run on Windows 7 & Mac.
2) for my two copies can I run one on my PC (Windows7) and the other on my iPad (I doubt it)
3) is the US$ 290 a one off fee with continued upgrades free.
4) does it keep pace with the quarterly updates to the Royal Horticulture Society Orchid Registrations.
5) Is it worth the money?

Brian

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by brianb

KMarch, Do you have any observations on the photos I posted(further back in the post) in response to your question?

Ah yes, I missed that. Your pics show a nice phal-type dendrobium. I sont' see any Den cruentum in there at all. It's pretty.

[Fishmom]

Unless OW has been upgraded this year, it does not run on the Apple OS. There was a copy up for auction last fall at my Orchid Society, so I did some checking then, and got a negative for my Mac. Sigh...

[fred]

JLu you need to drop your high and mighty attitude on this forum
you have been warned and banned by me for just that reason you seem to get a kick out of upsetting members.
this is not negotiable it stops right here right now.
if you wish to talk to your fellow geeks I don't have a problem with that but talking down to your fellow geeks coming across as Mr Right has upset quiet a few members on this forum.
they tell me your a very nice man in person let some of that shine here on geeks
one more complaint and my actions will be permanent
I will not enter into any further discussion about my post
this thread will now be closed