Heating cold water in the winter for orchids

[Ron]

Heating cold water in the winter

Hi All I asked this question many months ago, after having a problem with my Phallie seedling last winter.
The outside rainwater tank gets very cold, and when I watered my Phallies I initially did not realize how cold the water was.
so I set about inquiring on how I could do such a setup.
With the help on my son in law plumber, this is now the setup
On the left the cold water pipe goes into the tank.
Hot-water outlet pipe is connected to the cold-water inlet pipe by going through a splitter or mixer.
You just adjust the amount of cold-water mixing to suit your plants. They realty do like water about 20C (70F) or above to avoid any setback.
No more cold water on my orchid plants in the freezing winter

[Anton]

Is this for watering your Phallies, or heating the GH Ron ??

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Anton

Is this for watering your Phallies, or heating the GH Ron ??

Hi Anton.
It is for watering my Phallies in winter, the rainwater from the tank out in the backyard gets to around 10C or lower in winter.
This cold water knocked a lot of seedling around last winter, they were only a few months out of flasks around, some died a few drooped a leaf or 2, bigger plants did not look happy either.
It was recommended that the water be at least 20 C, and as I like to keep the plants very happy and growing I put the hot-water heater in.

The green house is heated by a commercial 4.5 amp/K heater
The things one does to keep the plants happy

[orchids4me]

Thats brilliant Ron!
He did a fantastic job too

[Ron]

Hi Emmaye
My wife say the orchids are better looked after then we are.

[Anton]

You're not married to same woman as me Ron ?

I am looking around for gas heaters for winter. Electricity to heat my GH would be too expensive.

LPG I found out is 3 1/2 times the cost of Natural Gas here, BUT, to lay a line 60 feet to my GH isn't cheap either, so what a dilemma, pay a small fortune to get a gas line laid, or pay a small fortune for 2 x 45 Kg LPG cylinders @ $115ea + delivery + rental fee.

[Ron]

LPG I found out is 3 1/2 times the cost of Natural Gas here, BUT, to lay a line 60 feet to my GH isn't cheap either, so what a dilemma, pay a small fortune to get a gas line laid, or pay a small fortune for 2 x 45 Kg LPG cylinders @ $115ea + delivery + rental fee.

I originally looked at all, despite the cost of electricity (at the time 3 years ago) I went and bought a electric heater. I have sealed the greenhouse of pretty well for winter.
I set the heater at about 17C minimum.
While it cost me money it is my only hobby and the beauty of the Phalaenopsis orchids are certinally worth the costs.
I would love to have a natural gas heater, mate in Canberra has one and he says it is not too expensive, his greenhouse is about 40 feet by 20 feet and grows Phallies and Catts.

[Ray]

I use a 400W aquarium heater in the RO tank in the greenhouse.

It's amazing the difference warm water makes.

[E-Jag]

Ray, I certainly have no quarrel with what you're saying, I always water with pretty warm water. But not really sure why, other than I've read it here AND I'm sure cold water could shock the roots. So, what difference does warm water make? Really curious.

[Ron]

I use a 400W aquarium heater in the RO tank in the greenhouse.
It's amazing the difference warm water makes.

Hi Ray, I looked at several options including the aquarium heater as well as the electrical probes for boiling water.
Finally decided on this after talking to my Plumber Son In Law.
He said the safest and most reliable way of maintaining a good temperature.

It's amazing the difference warm water makes.

Totally agree, that is why I went to all the trouble and expense to look after my Phallies.
See how much better they preform next year after a winter of using warm water.
By the way, I use a quality hose sprayer that puts out a gentle rain pattern of water, all over the leaves and plant. Gives them a good drenching each water day

[Anton]

Ray, my GH is 21 feet long by 13 feet wide and 15 feet high.
An 400W aquarium heater just aint gunna cut it.

[koshki]

Watering with cold water is one of the concerns I have about taking my plants outdoors for the summer. No water heater to the outdoor spigots!

Will this be a problem? I suppose I could fill a watering can, let it warm up, and use that, but a hose would certainly be easier.

[Dendian]

While I don't have any Phallies, I do try pre-warm (at least to room temperature) my water for the orchids. The way I am doing this now is that I have a hose attachment to my sink, and I bought about 200' of cheap garden hose, so the water comes in the room, sits in the hoses coiled up under the sink on the floor and it pre-warms in the hose before I use it. I have a long neck sprayer that I use, and I keep one hand on the metal wand. If the wand gets cool to the touch, I stop watering so I don't shock the plants. The sun room varies between 56 and 80, and the outside varies between 40 and 90. I usually try to water in the morning - but not with 40 degree water! I use this for Catts and Vandas.

[Ron]

Watering with cold water is one of the concerns I have about taking my plants outdoors for the summer. No water heater to the outdoor spigots!

Will this be a problem? I suppose I could fill a watering can, let it warm up, and use that, but a hose would certainly be easier.

I only use this warm water, mainly on my Phalaenopsis orchids because they mainly grow in the tropics.
The Paphiopedilums get it because I will be watering the Phallies nearby.
I suppose the Cattleyas will appreciate the extra warm water but as for the natives and Cymbidiums in the shade house,, they will get whatever tempature the water from the tap is.
These orchids do not need to be pampered.

[Hummer344]

During the winter I always heat my water to room temp. I feel that the cold water causes shock to the plant & it won't preform as well although the cold water won't kill them. During the summer my plants are outside and its hose water although I run the water to get the hot water out of the hose if its been laying in the sun. No use in scalding the babies either.

[Ray]

E-Jag, like the others, I only have anecdotal evidence that it is of any value, but especially with phals and bulbos that naturally grow pretty hot, I find the growth rate to be steady year-round with warmed water and stalled in the winter with cold water.

As a general comment to folks with greenhouse water tanks: just because your water is sitting in a controlled-temperature environment, don't think for a minute that it's the same temperature as they air. Evaporative cooling is remarkably effective at dropping its temperature compared to ambient.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Ray

E-Jag, like the others, I only have anecdotal evidence that it is of any value, but especially with phals and bulbos that naturally grow pretty hot, I find the growth rate to be steady year-round with warmed water and stalled in the winter with cold water.

As a general comment to folks with greenhouse water tanks: just because your water is sitting in a controlled-temperature environment, don't think for a minute that it's the same temperature as they air. Evaporative cooling is remarkably effective at dropping its temperature compared to ambient.

Our nighttime temperature outside is dropping very quickly this year, for the coastal are we normally in Autumn get a few cool nights but this has been a crazy year in Australia. Nights are often well below 50F.
Now have to put the heaters on at night.
Big change I have notice this year is now I am heating the rainwater to around 70+F, the plants are loving it and lots are now spiking.
Well worth the worry and research to set it all up, just turn it on half an hour before I need it and connect the hose to it, then happly water the Phallies and they love it.

[Onleme]

Love the set up Ron, well done yet again.
I have been watering our phals with warm water ever since I read something you put on here ages ago. Makes sense to me, tropical plants would really hate the cold water. It would be like us jumping under a cold shower in the middle of winter, we'd stop breathing too.
Thanks for showing your set-up.

Sonia

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Onleme

Love the set up Ron, well done yet again.
I have been watering our phals with warm water ever since I read something you put on here ages ago. Makes sense to me, tropical plants would really hate the cold water. It would be like us jumping under a cold shower in the middle of winter, we'd stop breathing too.
Thanks for showing your set-up.
Sonia

Hi, well we mabe have a few weeks more of cold night, but the days are warming up.
I belive my orchids came through winter a huge amount better with the hot water system warming up the water.

All the root tips remained active and especially the one deflasked in May 2011, these are now starting to grow new roots and leaves.
best investment I ever made.

With the show season over and a reserve Champion with a Phallie, 2 champion Phallies and Champion speciment with a Phallie. This justified the hot water system being use.
O and GrandChampion with a Paph, plus 2 Champions seedling Paphs, 2 Champion Paphiopedilums at both of our club show.
All the TLC shows in the quality of the plants and flowers I grow shows through at our local show!

[Anton]

I took up the experiment too, and have an old kettle in the GH and heated up 1.7Litres of water in the kettle and added to my 10 Litre (3Gal) hand pump sprayer.

This gives me a water temperature of around 22C (71.6F), and like Ron, have had my best ever winter with my Phals, and just like his Phallies have had active roots right through winter.

Thanks Ron, NOW, I am confident to get some more Phallies and know that they have have a more than reasonable chance of surviving me.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Anton

I took up the experiment too, and have an old kettle in the GH and heated up 1.7Litres of water in the kettle and added to my 10 Litre (3Gal) hand pump sprayer.

This gives me a water temperature of around 22C (71.6F), and like Ron, have had my best ever winter with my Phals, and just like his Phallies have had active roots right through winter.

Thanks Ron, NOW, I am confident to get some more Phallies and know that they have have a more than reasonable chance of surviving me.

Hi Anton, it is good to share tips, some may work for us, some may not.

The hot water system got quiet a few laughts until they seen how good is has been.
Have a covert member of our club putting on in after loseing a lot of plants this winter (Pahllies)

[terra_australis]

Not quite as elaborate as your method but I warmed my water up this winter too. The water straight out of my tank was icy some mornings and I was sure that wasn't going to do any of my plants any good. I just boiled a jug and dumped it into my 8 litre sprayer along with the tank water. Probably still wasn't 20 degrees but at least it wasn't cold enough to give my hands freezer burn so I assumed the plants would cope.

[tom499]

I bottle up rainwater in big plain plastic bottles and keep it inside. Long as they have 24 hours or so, they're warm enough to water plants with.

exclaimer: I don't have as many plants as some of you =P

[Ron]

All I have done is passed on some very special and good advice, it works great for me and my Paphs and Phallies, I would not bother to do it on Cymbidiums as they are non tropical plants and are grown cool.
This advice was never wispered to me and have never heard of it being used before!
Do it at you own peril but look at how many people are seeking advice on the problems they suffer from trying to grow Phallies.
I have just taken a big step forward.
No grumpy from me but a bit of help for the newbees

[hera]

Its very welcome to post tips and trick that the books don't tell. I use warm to hot water. I only have indoor plants and I'm still under a hundred so that works for me. When I had some S/H plants outside I saw the damage that cold water did to the roots. Warm is definitely best.

Originally Posted by Ron

All I have done is passed on some very special and good advice, it works great for me and my Paphs and Phallies, I would not bother to do it on Cymbidiums as they are non tropical plants and are grown cool.
This advice was never wispered to me and have never heard of it being used before!
Do it at you own peril but look at how many people are seeking advice on the problems they suffer from trying to grow Phallies.
I have just taken a big step forward.
No grumpy from me but a bit of help for the newbees

[Onleme]

Ron you are just a champion, and now because my phalies have survived their first winter and some flowered even, I am now looking at getting some more. I also found one of my noids on the internet last night, but bugger me, no name on it just a number, there is no mistaking it, so sad. Grower is in Taiwan. I was so excited then totally deflated. LOL.
Would love to get some flasks in, but just don't know how to go about importing them.... just something else to look into.

You must spend all your days talking to your phals Ron,

Sonia

[diane21]

The hot water can be stored at higher temperatures and reduced to supply temperature by mixing with cold water in blender valves. Storing hot water at a higher temperature increases the systems overall capacity and reduces the need of storage volume.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by diane21

The hot water can be stored at higher temperatures and reduced to supply temperature by mixing with cold water in blender valves. Storing hot water at a higher temperature increases the systems overall capacity and reduces the need of storage volume.

Hi, the hot water thermostat in the hot water tank is on the original high setting.
Very high! left at this as you say, as a small tank does not hold much water..
Plus the hot temp. in the water tank prevents fungal and bacteria build up in the water.
Very happy with the overall success using it on the plants
Thanks

[Anton]

My Phallies AND Vandas loved the warm water through winter and like Steve and Sonia didn't lose a plant.

NOW, if I could just control the heat in summer, I will be on a sure thing.

It is only my Ekkies which I have had problems with so far in the heat.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Anton

My Phallies AND Vandas loved the warm water through winter and like Steve and Sonia didn't lose a plant.

NOW, if I could just control the heat in summer, I will be on a sure thing.

It is only my Ekkies which I have had problems with so far in the heat.

Hi Anton, thanks for the vote of confidence on the warming of water in winter for water Phallies orchids with.

As for the cooling of the greenhouse in summer, I use the 5 jet as described in the website listed below.
It is place in front of a 3 feet industral fan and runs off timers on a hot day.
Works by the small particles of water eveporation and its cooling effect.
Also keeps up the humidity and prevents plants stressiing and drying out on extreme hot days above 40C+ temps.
Had it in use for nearly 4 years now and saved many plants on the extreme days when Temps top 50C+ in the green house and outside
Well worth the $70+ and cost of fan
Recomend
mhttp://www.hydor.com.au/pages/product.asp?groupID=11&branchID=-1

[Anton]

I have just installed a 45cm industrial wall mounted fan above the door to replace my old rotary fan which is on its last legs.

My foggers and under bench misters kick in every 45 minutes for 45 seconds and raise the humidity, but only drop the temp by around 5C, which on a day when the GH temp is up to 45C in there, doesn't help much.

Here in Adelaide, I would probably better off with an airconditioner in there, but can you imagine the power bills these days to run it 24 / 7over summer ???

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Anton

I have just installed a 45cm industrial wall mounted fan above the door to replace my old rotary fan which is on its last legs.

My foggers and under bench misters kick in every 45 minutes for 45 seconds and raise the humidity, but only drop the temp by around 5C, which on a day when the GH temp is up to 45C in there, doesn't help much.

Here in Adelaide, I would probably better off with an airconditioner in there, but can you imagine the power bills these days to run it 24 / 7over summer ???

Hi, my misting fan is about 2 meters above the floor on the end wall, the fan blows the mist about 4 meters before it all eveporates on a wamish 27 C day and about 1 meter on a 35C+ day.
If I were to walk into the greenhouse and had forgot to turn the misting system back on for some odd reason.
The Temp is at 45C, then turn on the fan and misting system the temp would drop to 30 -32C in about 5 minutes.

Humidity perhaps would have been about 20%, but after turning on the misting system, 5 minutes later it would be at about 50-55%.

It is like one giant evoparative cooler, perhaps better as it is compact and even less part to wear out. same priniciple of cooling by everapation!
Worth a thought!

[Brooke]

Anton why don't you get an evaporative cooler. Over here you can buy portable ones and they do a great job of cooling. Mine is built into the wall but I have two friends who use them.

Brooke

[Anton]

Brooke, they don't perform well with high RH and having a 20ft X 13ft X 15ft high warmhouse, would need quite a large unit to cool it.

I did look at second hand 15amp units which would have done the job, but would have needed a forklift to fit it, they weighed a ton (metaphorically speaking), just way too heavy, as they are 4 ft deep x 3 ft wide x 2 ft high.

They were in a surplus warehouse and originally came from the single men's barracks of the Woomera Rocket Range up north, so designed specifically for extreme heat.

[zaeem]

We are fortunate to have gas water heaters for home so in the large spray can I prepare a luke warm mix with cold tap and spray through nov,dec,and jan.maybe in feb as well.
OFcourse I dont have many------many plants

[Brooke]

I understand Anton, mine is built in and the air is drawn through a 20'x3' water saturated wall and does a great job unless the outside humidity is a 65 dewpoint or higher. When it is that high the best I can do in the front of the g/h is keep the temps slightly cooler than the outside temps. The cool growing area will only be about 5 degrees cooler than the outside air. With a lower dewpoint I get a 15 degree differential between the front and back.

The portable units I was talking about operate in an almost closed environment with the roof vents open for the heat to escape. The cooling unit doesn't draw in the humid air but recirculates the interior air. It operates similar to heat/air conditioning in a car where you push a button and the air is either from outside or you can recirculate the inside air.

Sorry you live in a hot and humid area. Using a fogger when the air is already saturated wouldn't help very much, you have a tough problem to deal with. I hope you can figure something out.

Brooke

[Anton]

Actually I live in an extremely dry area, it is just the inside of the GH that is humid.

A guy from our orchid club was just telling me he uses a portable evaporative unit with a small duct drawing in air from outside. He said this way it works efficiently because of the fact that it is drawing in the dry air from outside and not humid air, hence there is a better cooling effect.

This point was also agreed to by some other members of the club who were at my birthday bash last night. So, maybe worth looking into.

[Brooke]

If you live in a dry area it will be the cat's pajamas. It's too bad you didn't install a built in one when you built the g/h.

Brooke