What 3N or 4N is for in the name for Phrags?

[orchidea]

Sorry for ignoramus question...............

I am looking at Phrags in the past few days. Aren't they pretty?
Check this one...... ..........look at the price!!!!!!!!!..............
Orchid Web: Phrag. besseae 'Robs Choice' AM/AOS 4N

But I was wondering what 3N and 4N stands for in their name. I can tell that 4N is better than 3N. But what does 3N means??????????
Thanks.

[Dendian]

Woo Hoo - I found it, knew it was here somewhere.

Check out T in the Orchid Forum Dictionary. Kmarch does a great job of explaining it.

http://www.orchidgeeks.com/forum/glo...s/12377-t.html

3N is triploid, 4N is tetraploid.

[orchidea]

Originally Posted by Dendian

Woo Hoo - I found it, knew it was here somewhere.

Check out T in the Orchid Forum Dictionary. Kmarch does a great job of explaining it.

http://www.orchidgeeks.com/forum/glo...s/12377-t.html

3N is triploid, 4N is tetraploid.

Wow Dendian, thank you! Good thing you found it. It was killing me.......

[exasperatus2002]

OMG! Now I feel like a peasant having only a regular Phrag bessae on order from ecuagenera at the end of the month.

[orchidea]

Originally Posted by exasperatus2002

OMG! Now I feel like a peasant having only a regular Phrag bessae on order from ecuagenera at the end of the month.

I bought my Phrag besseae ('Pucker' x 'Colossal') yesterday. And I really wanted to ask the grower about this 3N and 4N stuff, but totally forgot..
The tag in this plant does not say anything with regard to 3N and 4N.... And, why only Phrags have this madness.......
I wish I have more time on my hands to deal with this........
At least I know NOW what I'll be doing when I retire.........

Exasperatus2002, I would like to know how you besseae (you are actually missing one 'e' there) will be doing. This plant took my heart last spring at the Show, before I even knew it's a Phrag.... I finally have one of my own. It's a BS plant but has no spikes. I hope I keep it alive......., but I'll be so happy if I can ever make it bloom.........,......

[exasperatus2002]

I saw a small one at the philadelphia flower show on the judging table. It had taken 3rd place. I will receive mine as a bare root, blooming sized plant. I'm picking it up at the longwood gardens orchid show on 3/26. I'll post picks when I receive it. The 3n/4n isnt only applied to Phrags. Cattleya are also sometimes refered to this way. When the orchid seed is being sterilized before flasking they can treat it with Colchicine. This causes them to have extra genes which intensify color & sometimes form.

To quote silence882 from another site "Colchicine is a mitotic inhibitor that stops a cell from dividing at metaphase (after the chromosomes have been doubled). Seeds are treated with it prior to flasking in an attempt to induce polyploidy. It's not a precise process and as a result, germination and growth percentages are much lower when colchicine is used. The plants that result from this process can be triploids, tetraploids, pentaploids, etc. or they can be aneuploids (having an irregular chromosome count). Aneuploids and anything greater than 4N usually fail to germinate or die well before reaching flowering size. Occasionally, 3N or 4N plants with deformed blooms will appear, but they are rarely genetically stable.

Triploids generally result in larger blooms on larger, faster-growing plants, but they are either sterile or far less fertile than diploids.

Tetraploids generally result in even larger blooms, although flower count is reduced. Plant size increases and growth slows down, so seedling-to-blooming time is increased. The fertility of tetraploids is generally much greater than that of diploids, although crossing them to diploids results in mostly 3N offspring. Paphanatics was experimenting with polyploid Maudiae-types and noted that deflasking-to-blooming time increased from 2 years in diploids to up to 5 years in tetraploids.

Most of the 3N and 4N seedlings offered for sale were not colchicine-treated, but rather are crosses which were made using plants which are confirmed tetraploids. Crossing a 4N by a 4N will give mostly 4N offspring, although they are sometimes 3N or 2N. Crossing a 4N by a 2N will result in mostly 3N offspring, although 4N or 2N plants can be produced".

[Dendian]

Oh, no - you are sadly mistaken if you think only Phrags have this madness ... it is in Catts too, and probably quite a few other orchids. I bought a C. walkeriana 4N and it cost me three times the 2N price (I bought one of those too...).

I wouldn't consider the 2Ns for peasants, because if we all had to buy 4Ns then we would be poor as peasants... thank GOD for the 2Ns so we can afford more orchids!

[orchidea]

Wow exasperatus2002, thank you for such great info!!!!!!!!
But, I still have one question left.............(at least one...)
How can you tell if your plant is 2N or whateverN? Can you tell without the surgery...... ? If you say that 4N can be crossed with another 4N, but the result could be 3N or 2N..... Do you take it to the lab to see what the result is??????????
This is crazy........ I think this is bordering with the "mad science" here......... Let's just enjoy our plants...... and enjoy them even more if they bloom.........

I agree with Dendian, let's just buy 2N's, so we have money left to buy more 2N's.......... This $20,000.00 besseae is not for my pocket, that's for sure..

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by orchidea

...How can you tell if your plant is 2N or whateverN? Can you tell without the surgery...... ? If you say that 4N can be crossed with another 4N, but the result could be 3N or 2N..... Do you take it to the lab to see what the result is??????????

You can't tell just by looking. You might see an unusually large or well-coloured flower that you suspect is 4n but you'd need to have it tested to be sure or hopefully the info would be included on the tag. You'll never see 2n on a tag because that is the normal state. If you breed a 4n with a 4n, the result will be 4n. If you breed a 4n with a normal plant (2n) the result will be a 3n. 3n are usually sterile plants. Some plants are naturally 3n or 4n but this is unusual. The vast majority of 4n orchids you see will have been treated with Colchicine.

Originally Posted by orchidea

This is crazy........ I think this is bordering with the "mad science" here.

I suppose it is a bit like that. It raises some legitimate questions regarding showing and judging plants. Should "artificially enhanced" 3n and 4n orchids compete alongside 2n plants? Is that fair? Or is it like doping in sports where you have a super strong, drugged-up athlete competing against a "normal" one? Is Colchicine treatment that much different than using Superthrive, rooting hormones, or other super fertilizers?

[orchidea]

Thank you Kevin,
So, it does sound a bit tricky. Maybe the competitions have to be divided into the categories (like in boxing........) - 2n's compete with 2n's, and 4n's with 4n's...................
So, my besseae is 2n, that's fine. At least I am not going to be stressed even more than I am right now about trying not to kill it.........
But the tag of my besseae looks strange. It says:

Phrag. besseae
species - ('Pucker' x 'Colossal' )

I am not sure what the word "species" is doing there, and what "besseae" really means. Is it just a group of Phrags that have this bright red coloration, or the name for the original specie (as it's always written with the small "b" in front)?????????
Oh boy, so much to learn..................

[LouisW]

Phrag. besseae is single species of orchid (species names always have lowercase first letters, whereas hybrids always have capitals) . The names in the parenthesis are the cultivar names of the parents.

I agree that the tag is a little confusing but what you have is:

Phrag. besseae 'Pucker' x Phrag. besseae 'Colossal'

This is a cross between two cultivars of one species, and that still leaves you with a Phrag. besseae when it comes right down to it. Having the two cultivar names can be good because they represent variety within the species. You can look up the two parents, imagine something in between, and that is probably something similar to what you have.

Maybe its confusing but just remember that you have Phrag. besseae and it is a species.

"Is it just a group of Phrags that have this bright red coloration...?????????"

Phrag. besseae is the only Phrag. with such solid brilliant reddish color, and thus it has been used in hybridization to try and apply the beautiful color to other types of Phrag. Nearly all red Phrag.s get their color from P. besseae.

[kmarch]

The word "species" in there isnt' really necessary. We know it is a species by the name. The name of this particular species is Phrag besseae. The other part, the ('Pucker' x 'Colossal' ) indicates your besseae is what we call "line bred". Read post #9 in the thread below for an explanation of what line breeding of species is and why we do it.

http://www.orchidgeeks.com/forum/gen...denver-os.html

[orchidea]

Thank you Kevin.
I just found your post there where you are asking who our DOS speaker was.
I am sorry, I missed your post somehow...
The speaker was Glenn Decker, and he is the one who sold me my besseae... He had many healthy looking Paphs and Phrags there. So, I left with my walet empty.........., but very happy...........
The only thing that worries me now, is that he said that he doesn't use coco products in his medium, because of the salt. And I just repotted 3 Paphs and used coco chips and coco coir. Oh well, I think, I'll give them some time....

[LouisW]

Cool! you got to meet Glen Decker! I missed the meeting he presented here in Albuquerque.

He is probably the best person to but P. besseae from, especially if you just heard his presentation.

[Brooke]

Did you soak the chips and coir in water prior to using. It usually takes two or three long soaks and good rinses to remove the salts that are supposedly already removed. Don't trust them, rinse anyway or get a TDS meter and check them after the first soaking cycle.

BTW, bessae also has a yellow and orange version too.

Enjoy your new purchase.

Brooke

[orchidea]

Originally Posted by Brooke

Did you soak the chips and coir in water prior to using.
Brooke

Thank you Brooke,
Nop, I didn't........ I was trusting the lable....
But I mixed it with lots of other things like perlite, sphag, MG mix, LECA and bark (whatever I had in the house). So, it's not that much of it there.
I will give it a little time and check the roots then. Lucky for me Paphs don't mind repotting, even like it as understand.

[Or-Kidd]

Hi everyone. Can anyone help me understand why my Paph. deleratii x sib is gradually turning brown on its' sepal? Soon after it bloomed it started to turn brown and now it's about 1/3 of the sepal. Could it be too dry or not enough sun? It's in a 2" pot and is a seedling with its' first bloom. I water it once a week and fertilize it and it's in a south west exposure. Thanks for the help. Heidi

[orchidea]

Hi Or-kidd,
Sorry to hear that. Pictures usually help, because we can see not only the flower but the plant overall.
I am not a big expert yet...., but I think it could be one thing or the combination of many things. My first guess would be that such small pot needs to be watered more often, it's probably too dry. Then, it could be salts. I would pull the plant out and check the roots. Paphs like good water more than some other plants. Maybe too much fert...... I am not sure about the light. I think they are more flex on this one, but definitly don't like when it's too bright. The combination of dry medium and light being too bright is my best guess right now.
BTW, the correct spelling is "delenatii", your tag is missing the right leg of "n" so it looks like "r".............

Maybe you can start a new thread with pictures, and I am sure there will be more knowlegable people willing to help

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by Or-Kidd

...Paph. deleratii...turning brown...Could it be too dry or not enough sun? It's in a 2" pot and is a seedling with its' first bloom. I water it once a week and fertilize it and it's in a south west exposure. Thanks for the help. Heidi

Hi Heidi,

There could be several reasons why your flower is browing:
1) it could just be at the end of its life. How long has the flower been out?
2) it could have incurred some mechanical damage, got bumped or something.
3) it could have been exposed to some temperature extremes (but delenatii can tolerate some pretty cool temps so I doubt cold would hurt it)

Watering frequency depends a lot on temps, humidity, and the kind of mix you have it potted in. All of these things affect how fast the mix dries out. So a once-a-week watering might be way too much, just right, or far to little depending on these other factors. For this reason most culture sheets, and a lot of the advice orchidgeek members give will say what conditions the orchid likes instead of telling you how often to water. In this case Paphs like to be kept gently and evenly moist, never dry, never soggy.

A south-west exposure is plenty of light for your delenatii. Does it get hot in these windows being south-west facing?

[Or-Kidd]

Thanks so much for the helpful advise. The flower has only been open for a week or so and I don't think that it's aging made it turn brown. The other suggestions seem to make sense so I will give these a try. The southwest window that it is facing is not in direct contact with the flower. They get plenty of quality light but are not directly in the sun. Right now it's winter in Michigan and we don't get alot of heat out of the sun yet. I'll try to regulate the watering. I think I may be underwatering because of the size of pot. Maybe twice week would be more appropriate. I get so many great suggestions from other 'geeks'. Thanks so much!!

[kmarch]

I hadn't noticed you were in Michigan! I used to live in Ann Arbor and grew lots fo orchids in Michigan. Do you have an east window? I grew, with good results in an unobstructed east window.