Rhynchostylis retusa

[frostychic]

I have one of these... I've had it approx. 1 year. It was mailed to me & got too cold, lost a lot of roots but still spiked (2) spikes about a month after it arrived... they bloomed fully & it was scrumptious... I thought, what a hardy plant to lose that many roots yet still go on to spike & bloom.

Anywhoo... fast forward to last summer.

I encouraged it to grow several (about 5 or 6) big, fat, healthy roots. They grew anywhere from 6" long to about 10" long... I felt like I was on the right track.

Now moving into Fall 2009 the plants also had to move in... into the house!

When I was gone from Indiana for over a month (near Christmas) all my orchids were suffering from something or another when I returned... this Vanda also had/has some issues.

I think it had thrips... I've treated it & my entire collection for all the things that I thought were ailing them... and have started a routine treatment rotation to keep my chids all healthy.

Meanwhile, I've been watching all the "old" roots on they Rhyn. dry up & I'm nearly positive that all the lower roots are dead & I also believe the lower portion of the stalk of this plant is also dried ... I'm speaking about the part of the stalk that is in the hanging basket. This is a fairly large Rhyn. and there seems to be about 3 inches of this stalk that is above the basket that is also dried/dead. I think this because of the roots that have dried and where they are located on the plant stalk. Every single root in the basket is dried & empty (but kept the outer casing of the root... you have to touch & press on some of them to know they are dried).

I'll take a photo later today and post it... but here's the scoop.

As I mentioned, it's a large plant... in a basket with old medium that could still be housing "issues" for this plant. This Vanda is leaning really bad so it would be great to get it out of this basket & into something fresh. Plus, if the lower portion of the plant stalk is dried I'm guessing that eventually the weight of the top of the plant could "snap" it.

I have another Vanda of mine that lost lower roots and I cut the bottom of the stalk & sealed the cut with cinnamon powder. Where I had cut that Vanda was nearly dried... but it was still showing just a bit of green. I did that to the other V. about 2 weeks ago & so far, so good. Prior to cutting it, that particular Vanda had a long, long body at the bottom that was void of leaves. The roots on the lower portion of it's stalk had dried up too... so whatever condition it was suffering from (thrips as well I believe) did the same damage to my Rhyn. retusa.

Do any of you have experience with lobbing off the lower portion of a Vanda & if so... is there anything that I should observe other than the normal sterile cutting tools etc.

I'd love your recommendations on what you'd do if it was yours.

Photo soon come...

[frostychic]

Here are some pics...

This first one of me pointing is a dry/dead root. It is the highest one up on the plant stalk. I believe everything below that root is dried. Plus, I'm worried about what's in that old medium that the plant has been growing in.


Here's more of the same plant showing the roots, stalk, basket, plant, dirty ruler etc.








See these roots in and out of the basket? Not one of them is solid & alive... all are empty shells that are dry and fold in when you push on them... the only alive roots are the 5 or 6 that are all above the basket.



Not sure if I posted this one already or not... sorry if it's a repeat of another photo above...



Sooooo... your thoughts? I wanna the stalk & give the plant a new basket without all that moss (it's what it came with & I think it was getting too old).

Whaddaya think?

[willowbanks]

Frostichic, do you have a plastic vanda basket handy or can you get your hands on one????????

Bill

[tansyflower]

I have my vandas planted in bark. I also have a couple bare-rooted (one in little basket, and one on tree). I think moss may be too soggy.

I have had a couple I have needed to trim. I just lopped them off. I did however keep the bare woody lower portion, in case it formed offshoots (ever hopeful). I chucked them eventually.

Also, in regards to the old roots. I have had some that i was sure were dead and dried, but then put out new green shoots. Those lower papery ones are probably too far gone though.

[_cor]

It might be that its needs more heat and higher humidity. retusa is very hardy but very hard to grow well and almost impossible to flower when grown cold. Just a thought.
cors

[willowbanks]

Sorry about the open ended strange question about the basket.

The roots above where your finger is still look ok, every thing below is dead and gone.

Notice how your wooden basket has sideways slats, you'll never get this plant back into that basket even when the good roots are wet. Plastic vanda baskets have upright slats and the roots can be slid in and down through the slats without damaging the roots.

You can trim the stem to just above the dead root you are pointing at, this has nothing to do with any nasty fungal attack, it simply drowned in the sphag moss.

Normaly when you lop a Vanda you keep cutting the stem till it appears nice clean and white in the centre, not in this situation though, your plant has rotted and naturally sealed itself off above the moss.

I'll stop here now, I need to know what you find when you make the stem cut above the dead root. Also could you wet the roots that look good and give them a gentle squeeze between finger and thumb, they should feel solid not in any way soft and weak.

Bill

[LouisW]

Maybe you can take the opertunity to cut off the bad stuff and pot the upper portion into a nice fresh basket so those roots can get a little more water.

[frostychic]

Well... about that plastic vanda basket. I have seen a "home-made" one before, but I'll have to get on the internet & search (maybe eBay) to see one manufactured that way & perhaps purchase one.

Our Indiana summers are very warm & humid so that would make sense of why this retusa did well last summer outside.

During our winters, it's housed inside, misted daily... has a fan circulating the air ... plus a humidifier & the day time temps are usually around 75-79F.

This plant was shipped to me from the grower who is in Florida... so the sphag. was there prior to me owning this retusa. I've never been fond of it as it seemed it was packed very tight ...

Thanks for the advice on a vanda.

I will proceed by throwing caution to the wind now...

[frostychic]

Originally Posted by willowbanks

I'll stop here now, I need to know what you find when you make the stem cut above the dead root. Also could you wet the roots that look good and give them a gentle squeeze between finger and thumb, they should feel solid not in any way soft and weak.

Bill

Thanks Bill... I'll give 'em a squeeze & report back. I'll also let you know what I find when I make the cut. Although that stem is mighty thick. I'm worried I'll need to get the hedge trimmers out

[frostychic]

I gave a squeeze to each of the 5 or 6 roots it still has... only one is questionable in it's look and feel. It's been looking to me like it is starting to shrivel... and it has a slightly (ever so slightly) mushy feel. I can't remember if it was already looking shriveled since the treatments I gave it or not...

[willowbanks]

No need to rush into anything, orchids are slow.

The plastic basket is very important, if it is too hard to find I can post a couple over to you probably quicker than you can find one yourself.
(need to know soon, as in very soon)

Very large chunky bark is the other thing you need.

I'm confident this plant can be saved but it needs to be done right.

Bill

[frostychic]

Hi WillowBanks...

Sorry for my delay. I've had some issue with my Lynksys ethernet connection (we're on satellite internet access out here in the boonies of Indiana) ... last week, thru this past weekend I have been unable to access OG's thru my normal connection... I had to bypass the ethernet & go straight into the computer... problem is that my photos aren't in this 'puter so I had to email them to myself (yadda-yadda-yadda).

Long story short... I'm back (intermittenly).

I chopped him & currently I have the retusa hanging on one single wire hanger (the same way some growers hang lots of their vandas in the greenhouse without a pot.

When I took the photos in my last post... I was doing a visual inspection and there before my very eyes was a THRIP right there on the retusa root! So I chopped the stalk & gently removed the top of the plant from the basket. I tied up the top of the Vanda before chopping it so that I had both hands free but didn't have to worry about dropping the orchid when I I proceeded to take the retusa (without the pot) and treat it again for thrips.

I took the wood basket & it's contents outside where I soaked it in a Bayer 3in1 solution in a bucket. I think it's still out in that bucket and that was 3 days ago... I know you want me to use a plastic basket but are you SURE I can't re-use this wood basket?

I've checked out some plastic baskets and I believe I have some wood chips in an orchid bag mix.

I've put the retusa in the shower one day... and misted multiple times the other days since the chop-chop... the leaves are all looking healthy & I've given the roots a squeeze again & I think that at the moment... it's stablized & on the mend. I know I have these thrips though & I'm sure they are migrating around my entire collection... so I've got to stay diligent on the spraying.

I'm ready for your instructions though... I'll continue to look for a plastic basket...

One thing I'd like to point out in one of my newest photos is that when one of the lower leaves of this plant fell off about 3 weeks ago, the root had grown just ABOVE it and there is an "open wound" on the bottom ofthat root that is now turned into a black "gash" ... it has sealed shut, but it has a strange looking little red mark on it that is flat and oval shaped... I don't know what "scale" looks like but perhaps I should google that image to see if I have a "scale" sucking the sap out of that wound on the retusa root. The root actually grabbed hold of the leaf... these retuse leaves are quite substantial & that root had adheared to the leaf because it grew out of the plant so close to the leaf just below it... it was really tight up against the leaf & when that leaf yellowed & dropped, the root didn't want to let it go!

I'll point it out in a photo below...


Just before the chop! I saw a thrip (or I think it was a thrip... it had a feathery white body that looked like a cross between a shrimp & a prehistoric monster). You can't see the thrip in this photo but you can see the damage to the roots in the way they have broken ring marks.


The Chop!!!

[frostychic]

See here, just next to my pinky finger... on the bottom side of that root there is a black gash about an inch in length... this was black and "open" when the leaf fell from it... this root was "attached" to that leaf ... it had grabbed hold of the leaf & still you can see little hairs or something that looks "furry" on the bottom side of this root where it had been holding onto the leaf.

I think the wound is sealed... it's dry where-as before it had a wet look.

[frostychic]

Also... when I cut the stalk and all the roots that were above the moss but that had anchored into the moss & basket were dry, HOWEVER, there was one root that still had a little life left in it below the surface. When I cut it at the stalk I did notice it had a little color to it so I sealed it & then when I removed the material from the wood basket I did find a green root that was about a knuckle's length ... it was nearly dry at the stalk though so I don't think it had a chance while in that pot.

Here is where I cut that root & sealed it... see the powder? Once I removed the basket from the house & took out the moss is when I found the live piece of root. I think I did the right thing though in cutting away everything that I did... whadaya think?

[Brooke]

Thrips are very small and are the size of an exclamation mark ! white and fuzzy sounds like a mealy bug. The reddish mark you pointed out is not scale. Scale are much much smaller.

The mark on the root won't harm the plant.

Brooke

[willowbanks]

Your doing fine Frosty, you've cut it away and hung it up on a piece of wire like a professional.

No basket yet so I'll answer your other questions.

I know you want me to use a plastic basket but are you SURE I can't re-use this wood basket?

I'm pretty positive that you won't get those roots back into the original wooden basket without needless damage. That plant was put in there at a much younger age, the roots are now too thick and rigid.

Don't chuck it away, you can always use it on another Vanda/Ascocenda later. Don't get me wrong, I love wooden baskets and still use some on the right sized plants.

I've put the retusa in the shower one day... and misted multiple times the other days since the chop-chop

Forget the shower trick, mist it where it hangs normally will be fine.

I think the wound is sealed... it's dry where-as before it had a wet look

That's nothing, it's only slight damage on the velamen, white sponge like covering that stores moisture for the root to up take.

I think I did the right thing though in cutting away everything that I did... whadaya think?

Yes you have done the right thing.

Just before the chop! I saw a thrip (or I think it was a thrip... it had a feathery white body that looked like a cross between a shrimp & a prehistoric monster). You can't see the thrip in this photo but you can see the damage to the roots in the way they have broken ring marks.

Thrip damage, no way, those ring marks were more than likely caused when the plant was posted to you, that's what happens to these thick rigid roots when they are pushed too far.

Ok, I think I've got all your questions covered (I hope)

One more thing you can do while we wait for the basket and it will help your plant big time. Mix 1 gram of raw unrefined sugar (not white or brown but raw sugar) per litre of water, spray the leaves and roots with that twice per week, it's a natural nutritional boost. By doing this you are supplimenting the glucose formed by photosynthesis. (glucose will do the same as raw sugar but I found it harder to disolve.

One more thing, do not throw fert or hormones at this plant till it shows signs of recovery, it just can't process them at the moment.

I'll post photo of the basket so you know exactly which type to look for.

Bill

[willowbanks]

The baskets, notice the upright slates.


This is what I mean by large chunky bark, no flaky rubbish.


Ten years ago I could buy bark twice this size and it was great for Vandas.

Bill

[frostychic]

Ok... well, weeks later I'm pretty bummed out about my retusa... and actually, another Vanda (Motes Indigo).

First, the retusa.

It has slowly continued to die. The 5 or 6 large roots that I did have left have shriveled one by one... I've lost 3 or 4 more leaves. The roots are shriveling from the stalk on out but the first signs of death of each root has occurred at the stalk.



So at this moment, I have (I think) 4 mature leaves plus the 2 that were emerging... I have no new roots pushing thru & the roots that are left have begun to shrivel from the stalk and we had a warm day of rain showers yesterday so I put all my orchids out in it and I could clearly see the "death" of the roots.

I'm so sad.

Plus... I have another really large and what used to be a healthy Vanda that is over 2ft tall of foliage that is also showing signs of distress... I lost 3 leaves in the middle of the plant... I lost lots of roots over the winter on this vanda. I thought the problem was thrips... but honestly, I don't know what the problems are/is.

I know I'm pretty disheveled right now... all my orchids seem to be "unhealthy" and really, they have been since I was away for those 45 days in Nov.-Dec. 2009.

I have had some blooms on my phal type dends & I have a cane type dend that is about to bloom... a couple of my other vandas are putting out strong new roots but a couple of others have that "ring" look to the new sections of the root... like for example the root had no new growth but then all of a sudden it pushed out more root from the end of a current root... where the new root pushed out from the old root there is a ring... the color of the ring is a rusty-brown & the ring is smaller in diameter than the new part of the fresh root.

I am just going to cry if I lose my chids...

The new chids I have bought recently are being housed at the house where we take care of 3 elderly family members... the new chids I bought over the past 3 months are not low dollar orchids saved from Lowes as were some of my others... but this thing with the Vandas has me really, really upset. My vanda culture has always been really good but all of a sudden something has gotten to them & I'm taking a beating over it... especially, not knowing what to do!

Is this an issue with:

1. Too much moisture?
2. Not enough humidity?
3. Thrips?
4. Fungus among-us?
5. Bacterial?
6. Some other dang bug?
7. ???

Help!!!

[willowbanks]

Frosty, cheer up, your Vanda growing is pretty good from what I have seen.

We all have success and failures along the way, the main thing is to learn from the ones that don't go to plan.

I thought we had a very good chance to save your retusa but looks like it is a gonner, I'm sorry. Every thing you did to try and save it was the right way to go just that the damage was far more advanced than we thought. With Vandas, if they decide to die they will die no matter what we do to try and save them.

I'll move on to your questions,

1. Too much moisture?

Yes, because of the sphag moss, too much moisture around the stem of the plant for too long caused it to rot.

2. Not enough humidity?

I can't really answer this question, I'm not in Indiana to know what your conditions are like.

3. Thrips?

(I take it this question is about the rings on the roots)

No, not thrips in this case.

The rings are normal the way you describe them. Vandaceous seal themselves off during extended periods of cool/cold weather (winter) and start growing again from the sealed off point when conditions (weather) improves. (I think Vandaceous orchids are the only ones to do this)

4. Fungus among-us?
5. Bacterial?

Fungal spores and bacteria are always present even after chemical treatment, they are in the air we breath. This had nothing to do with your retusa dying.

6. Some other dang bug?

No other bugs.

7. ???

The death of your retusa was a simple case of drowning.

I hope that answers your questions and is a help to you, any thing you need clarified about those answers please ask, if we don't ask questions we don't learn.

Bill

[lmartiny]

Bill, when I posted my sick, dehydrated Vanda you suggested alternating soaks of raw suger water, then fertilizer. Would that help in this situation?

[evagentry]

This has been an informative thread, thank you Bill for the advice you have given.
I am sorry about your plants Frostychick, but it won't hurt to try again!

[willowbanks]

lmartiny, not in this case with this plant, it has decided to turn it's toes up and there is no stopping it.

Bill