I'm hoping to teach from my mistakes...

[Olive Cook]

So, as a newbie to LECA, I was so excited to try it out, I instantly potted up 2 of my Phals as soon as it arrived. I didn't know to soak it, rinse it, soak it again with Superthrive, ect... Just wet it and potted away.
I learned this soon after, but left the two alone hoping for the best...

1 of them I found a couple weeks ago, with only 1 good root left and has been in rehab. I thought perhaps it was just the plant, being it was a Walmart "just add ice" jobbie. I've been using the root hormone spray on it daily.
Then tonite I noticed another (also a "just add ice") wasn't looking as perky as it should, I figured it was just too dry, from being at the back of the shelf and not getting very much attention. So I decided to soak the pot overnight with Superthrive water. After a more thorough inspection, I noticed shriveled roots above the LECA, and they were rotted below. I un-potted, to find that MOST of the roots were rotted, but it has 6-7 good roots that were out of the LECA.
Like I said, it was dry, so I'm not going to blame over watering, even though that is what it would normally be. I'm thinking it was from not cleansing the LECA first, is this a good assumption?

I'm soaking the whole plant, leaves and all overnight in Superthrive/sugar water, and in the morning I will be putting it into a 2 1/2 inch pot, and keeping an eye on it.

For the Newbies to LECA, I cannot stress enough how important it is to thoroughly rinse and soak your LECA before use. And if there are any of you who did what I did and just pot up, I would suggest checking the roots asap.

I can stand to be corrected, so if anyone thinks I could have made another mistake I may have overlooked, PLEASE speak up. Like I said, I'm hoping to teach from my mistakes, but I still have a lot to learn as well

Thanks

[berniep]

G'Day Olive Cook

I am thinking of embarking on some S/H growing so threads like this are much more helpful than you realize. I am still reading the sticky on it and will probably do so a few more times yet. Do you think it would be the salt still in it from firing (not rinsing) or the Leca didn't wick because of the lack of soaking?

Look forward to hearing opinions on this.

Cheers
Bernie

[syndywindy]

I use hydroton for quite a few of my orchids, but mainly catt's and onc's. I tried my phal's in it and they did not care for it, so I put them back into a bark mix. For every person who uses it, you are going to get different answers. I do know that several have commented on phal's not caring for S/H, so maybe that should be a consideration. Before using it, I rinse, rinse, rinse and rinse some more. Then I let it soak at least 24 hours with rooting hormone in the soak. I have been using it for almost a year now and where I didn't have roots in the resevoir before, they are now growing down into it. I started gradually, I didn't jump into putting a lot of orchids into S/H as I wanted to see how they would react first.

[mytwogirls]

Thank you for posting this. I am eager to try LECA but I have to do a LOT more reading on it first before I try it (I am kinda chicken right now...lol) Olive, I am sorry you had to learn the "hard way" on this, how sad. I too look forward to hearing tips and opinions on this. Thanks again Olive for posting this!

[psyc1210]

are you potting in LECA with bottom drainage, or s/h? I do not soak my LECA ahead of time, and usually rinse it out real good after I pot the plant. I'm using LECA with bottom drainage holes.

[Olive Cook]

I'm using plastic orchid pots with slats in the sides and holes on the bottom. I keep a plastic tray under each one as the resevoir.
I have ALL of my orchids in Leca, and most of my collection are Phals. The only ones to have issues are these two where I didn't rinse and soak. My Dens are LOVING it!

I'm glad this thread will prove to be helpful, even if it's at the cost of a couple 'chids

[FLBob]

I've never used LECA (Aliflor) on Phals, I can't see why it would not work, but I'd want a rather humid environment before I'd attempt it for Phals.

I knew a woman that grew phals semi-hydro successfully, but there she had a reservoir of water and nutrient under the LECA.

I think it's wise to choose a potting media that matches your growing environment and culture requirements. The first grower I saw using aliflor in mass was in Homestead. By using aliflor he was able to water his catts every day in the afternoons when his green house had temps in triple digits.

I find aliflor a great media for catts and dens or any plant that really likes periods of dry.

I normally rinse after potting by running many gallons of water through the pot. I don't waste the water though, I use it on my garden plants.

[Aine2]

Olive, I am so sorry to hear about your phals. Posting the issues you had helps others
who may be thinking of trying this medium ( like me, but need to learn a lot more first).
Thanks for posting this.

[Olive Cook]

you are very welcome, Aine2

[katrina]

This is just a guess as I have never grown a phal in the manner that you've described. Since you have the phal potted in LECA like I would a catt...no reservoir...I do not believe the problem is from lack of soaking/watering the LECA prior to it's use.

Depending on how long you've had the phals planted this way...it's most likely just a lack of water that causing your problem. I'm basing this on your statement of "not that much attention". Also...could be that there was a bit of a problem to begin with and the stress of the move and lack of water involved pushed the plant beyond it's coping abilities.

Dens...because of the canes...have the ability to weather some drier than ideal conditions...at least for awhile. The phals...w/ no watering storing parts...do not so they will show the stress much quicker than a den.

I almost forgot to mention...when potting my catts in this medium...and not in s/h method...I do a quick rinse just to get the dust off and then in the pot it all goes. I also use it mixed in w/other medium in the same manner. No problems. If I were to set up s/h...then I would be more concerned w/the heavier rinsing and soaking.

[tangers40]

i'll play devil's advocate here and say again that i have all my phals in s/h (using hydroton) and all are thriving. i also have most of my other plants in it as well. the only problems i've had are with very small plants (an ascofinetia and a sophronitis species) so they're elsewhere. but all other kinds that i have, including dens, catts, an epidendrum, a miltonia, etc are all doing fine.

one thing i've made sure to do when transplanting into the LECA is to a) rinse thoroughly and soak at least overnight and b) wait until some sort of new growth appears on the plant, preferrably roots. if the plant appears dormant, i leave it in what it's in until i see signs of growth. if you've got a plant that's packed into soggy sphag or something of that nature and needs to be out of there NOW, i'd definitely clean up the roots and whatnot, but i then put it back into the same kind of media it was in, be it sphag or bark (not THE SAME media, of course, but the same TYPE...lol). then, once i see growth, i'll put it into s/h. not sure if this is part of my success or not. but all my phals are big and fat and healthy. *shrug*

of course, take my advice with a grain of salt. i'm definitely a n00b and still not very successful at getting things to bloom. don't want to come off sounding high and mighty here.

[Olive Cook]

tangers, thank you. Most of my Phals are doing just fine in the LECA, (hydroton) but after this second one I wanted to know if my assumption was right. I think the second one will be fine with time, love and Superthrive

[katrina]

Originally Posted by tangers40

i'll play devil's advocate here and say again that i have all my phals in s/h (using hydroton) and all are thriving. i also have most of my other plants in it as well. the only problems i've had are with very small plants (an ascofinetia and a sophronitis species) so they're elsewhere. but all other kinds that i have, including dens, catts, an epidendrum, a miltonia, etc are all doing fine.

one thing i've made sure to do when transplanting into the LECA is to a) rinse thoroughly and soak at least overnight and b) wait until some sort of new growth appears on the plant, preferrably roots. if the plant appears dormant, i leave it in what it's in until i see signs of growth. if you've got a plant that's packed into soggy sphag or something of that nature and needs to be out of there NOW, i'd definitely clean up the roots and whatnot, but i then put it back into the same kind of media it was in, be it sphag or bark (not THE SAME media, of course, but the same TYPE...lol). then, once i see growth, i'll put it into s/h. not sure if this is part of my success or not. but all my phals are big and fat and healthy. *shrug*

of course, take my advice with a grain of salt. i'm definitely a n00b and still not very successful at getting things to bloom. don't want to come off sounding high and mighty here.

I wouldn't say you are playing devil's advocate because the method in which Olive is using the LECA is not semi-hydropinics (s/h). Slotted pot (drainage) and no reservoir.

She is using the LECA as a medium...like any other medium...be it bark or chc or whatever.

Just because LECA is used in each potting set up...they are nonetheless 2 radically different potting methods.

Because there is no reservoir...there is no place for "gunk" collect. Also because there is no reservoir and the waterings are simply running through the medium and out the sides and bottom...there never will be any wicking action. Therefore the soaking to ensure the pellets will begin to wick the water...is just not necessary.

These phals...even though they are in pots...they are potted in something that dries super quick....they now need to be treated like a mount. They will need to be watered every day.

[Irene]

She doesn't have a reservoir in the pot, but she keeps a tray of water under it to act as a reservoir. Olive would you post a pic of your set up?

[katrina]

Saucer of water or not...it's not the same.

The slot pots...slots/slits on the sides of the pots...equate to a different growing environment than the true s/h. It will dry out much, much faster because of those slits. There's a chance I could be wrong on this point...but I believe the side slots will have a negative effect on any wicking action.

Hopefully Ray will see this and he can chime in here.

Olive -- have you read Ray's website? (firstrays.com) He goes into a great deal of information and explanation of the S/H growing method.

[tangers40]

Originally Posted by katrina

I wouldn't say you are playing devil's advocate because the method in which Olive is using the LECA is not semi-hydropinics (s/h). Slotted pot (drainage) and no reservoir.

true, and ty for pointing that out.

[Olive Cook]

I haven't made it to Ray's site yet, I will tomorrow, as well as try to get some pics up
Thanks everyone!

[Ray]

It's hard to say for sure whether it was the lack of cleaning that was the issue, although it certainly could be.

When LECA is manufactured, binders are mixed with the clay flakes as they are poured onto a rotating disk. The little balls roll around, gathering up more and more clay - sort-of like rolling a snowball to make it big enough for a snow man. When the balls are fired, some of those binders evaporate, but it is also possible that some reacts with stuff in the clay forming soluble salts. AND...if that wasn't enough of a potential issue, as the pellets come out of the kiln, to keep the dust down and to cool them rapidly for packaging, they are typically doused with water, that may not even be potable, and who knows what's in that!

Concerning using a slotted pot in a tray of water - I suppose you could say it's semi-hydroponics, but probably not very effective semi-hydroponics.

You have two opposing processes going on - wicking of water up from the bottom, and evaporation. If the evaporation rate is low, then the medium stays wet higher in the pot, where all of the roots can get to it. If the evaporation rate is high, then the wicking cannot keep up and most of the medium will remain dry, doing the plant no good. Having pots with extra holes or slots in the side really increases the evaporation rate, essentially negating the benefits of S/H culture.

[tangers40]

here's another trick i've learned if you want to do true s/h but only have slotted pots and a saucer.....line the inside of your slotted pot with a ziploc bag! cut the zipper off the bag, and open it along one seam and the bottom so you can roll it into a tube, then line the inside of your pot with it (i use a couple small pieces of double-sided tape to keep it secure while filling the pot with LECA...once the pot is full, the bag should be held in place by itself). then, you can set your pot into a saucer of water. that way, the LECA wicks water like normal, but the ziploc bag liner keeps it from evaporating out the sides.

i'm sure there's an easier way of doing this sort of thing, but that's what i do. i have my big phallies in 6" net pots with the baggie liner. they're doing just as well as my plants in pots that have a contained reservoir.

[Olive Cook]

whole plant:

pot and water tray:

Close up of roots, pot/water tray:



I'm still going to take Ray's advice and water every day, but I told those who wanted to see pics that I'd post how I've been doing it.
However, the Phals that are in the LECA that I soaked first are doing great like this, it was just the first two in the un-rinsed LECA that had issues

(I had just watered right before I took the pics, the top doesn't stay that wet enless I mist it.)

[sunshine]

Olive, thanks for the pictures. Your phal looks really happy and healthy. After
reading and looking at pics I am seriously thinking about trying this method. It looks like watering so much easier. I have not been home since the 11th of Jan Have had my neighbor go over and water. I do have a lot of water hogs This method is definitely must try. From what I have seen posted for pics the chids look so much healthier and happier. Can't wait to get home
about phals in s/h. Aren't they more likely to get root rot from so much water

[maiseymoo]

Thanks Olive for this thread, I have been toying with the idea of potting in LECA, and this has helped, especially seeing your pics of usual set up. I am still looking into it as I am not sure I have the right conditions for it. Thanks for sharing.

[Olive Cook]

sunshine, the plant I used for pics isn't really the best example, because the roots go all the way down to the bottom of the pot. As with ANY potting medium, if the roots (on a Phal) sit in water they will rot. That particular plant I water, let it sit for a while to soak it up, and drain the tray so the roots don't sit in it.
All of my others, the roots sit higer in the pot, so I can keep the tray full and it continues to soak it up as needed. I flush the pots and refill the trays once a week.
I hope that helps

[psyc1210]

Originally Posted by katrina

I wouldn't say you are playing devil's advocate because the method in which Olive is using the LECA is not semi-hydropinics (s/h). Slotted pot (drainage) and no reservoir.

She is using the LECA as a medium...like any other medium...be it bark or chc or whatever.

Just because LECA is used in each potting set up...they are nonetheless 2 radically different potting methods.

Because there is no reservoir...there is no place for "gunk" collect. Also because there is no reservoir and the waterings are simply running through the medium and out the sides and bottom...there never will be any wicking action. Therefore the soaking to ensure the pellets will begin to wick the water...is just not necessary.

These phals...even though they are in pots...they are potted in something that dries super quick....they now need to be treated like a mount. They will need to be watered every day.

Saying that it would need to be watered everyday like a mount is simply not true. Depending on the environment and growing conditions, it may need to be watered more frequently. All of my orchids are potted in aliflor and have side slots and bottom drainage. They do not get watered everyday....more like every 3-5 days.

[tangers40]

Originally Posted by sunshine

about phals in s/h. Aren't they more likely to get root rot from so much water

when first putting the plant (be it phal or any other type, i've found) into an s/h setup, i plant it so the bottom-most roots are about an inch above my reservoir line. this way, they're not constantly sitting in water. then, as the plant puts out new roots, some will invariably grow down into the reservoir themselves. these somehow adapt to this condition and don't rot. most of my plants have this now. tip the pot up to see the bottom, and you'll find swimming roots on all of them

and as for ease of watering, that's the reason i use it i can water/fill reservoirs once a week or so, rather than soaking every other day. saves sooooo much time.

[katrina]

Originally Posted by psyc1210

Saying that it would need to be watered everyday like a mount is simply not true. Depending on the environment and growing conditions, it may need to be watered more frequently. All of my orchids are potted in aliflor and have side slots and bottom drainage. They do not get watered everyday....more like every 3-5 days.

Are you talking phals? You have your phals in this set up and yet you only have to water them every 3-5 days? Seriously? I can see that being true w/a catt but I find it hard to believe w/a phal. No offense intended.

My mounted phals have a very healthy pad of sphag at the roots and provide more moisture retention than LECA in this set up provides...still...I have to water them every day.

[psyc1210]

Originally Posted by katrina

Are you talking phals? You have your phals in this set up and yet you only have to water them every 3-5 days? Seriously? I can see that being true w/a catt but I find it hard to believe w/a phal. No offense intended.

My mounted phals have a very healthy pad of sphag at the roots and provide more moisture retention than LECA in this set up provides...still...I have to water them every day.

Yes, I'm talking about my Phals. I understand what you're saying with it. I think before Jay said that he'd have to water every day or multiple times per day if it were potted in a regular bottom drainage pot in LECA...however, in my growing conditions I am able to only have to water every 3-5 days in LECA. Winter is the time that I am watering around every 5 days, summer is every 3 days. All seem happy and many are blooming and spiking. Works for me, because I would never have time to water all 80 or so every single day anyway.

[katrina]

WOW!! You are fortunate! I know when I used a bark mix...6" pots would be dry in 3 days. This was after a year+ of being potted in it. Even watering at 3 days all of my phals looked a bit dehydrated. Needless to say, no more bark mixes for me. Well, for that reason plus the bark doesn't agree w/my hands (allergies) and I don't want to have to wear gloves everytime I'm messing w/the 'chids.

Your point is accurate...depending on the growing conditions they may not need daily watering.

[PhalNewbie89]

I just ordered some Hydroton today and plan to try it on my paph. You all mentioned that your roots really shouldn't sit in the water. Would it hurt to put my paph into a larger pot then normal so it would be sitting up higher?

Also talking about the slotted pot, I have some that look much like what olive shows in her pic and to me I don't know how much would evaporate out the sides. The slots are barely open. :P

[syndywindy]

Water would leak out the sides of pots with slots. So unless there is a gap between the bottom of the slots and the bottom of the pot, you won't have any water in the pot at all. I tried a paph in S/H and it went bad very quick. But maybe it was just me. I didn't fare well with phal's in S/H either. But my catt's and onc's thrive in it. So I think it's trial and error for each person.

[Olive Cook]

Originally Posted by PhalNewbie89

I just ordered some Hydroton today and plan to try it on my paph. You all mentioned that your roots really shouldn't sit in the water. Would it hurt to put my paph into a larger pot then normal so it would be sitting up higher?

Also talking about the slotted pot, I have some that look much like what olive shows in her pic and to me I don't know how much would evaporate out the sides. The slots are barely open. :P

Phalnewbie, look here:
Growing Lady Slppiers in Water culture
This should help you greatly

[PhalNewbie89]

Yeah, I think I found that thread after looking at this one yesterday. Thanks Olive :P. The trays I picked up are pretty tall so I think for my paph I am going to fill it up so that the slots are cover. I will keep playing with it until I figure out what works right...