Paph Seedlings Deflasked

[kmarch]

Bought 3 flasks of Paph seedlings back in September, deflasked them in November and here's a pic I took of them in December. After deflasking them I sprayed them only once with Mancozeb. Since deflasking them I keep them in this tub that has water in the bottom (though they are not sitting in water) so they have good humidity. I also have a small fan blowing directly on them so after I water them the leaves dry off quickly. I have them in the house so the temps are more even than if they were in the green house. They are potted in a mix of fine bark, fine charcoal, and medium perelite. I am trying 2 different ways of hardening them off for the greenhouse. I have moved 3 50mm pots of each into my greenhouse. They've been there almost 2 weeks now and so far so good. The rest I am currently gradually hardening them off, putting them outside for a couple more hours each day but still protecting them from the cool nights and the hot days by bringing then in.

The 3 paphs are:
Paph Macbeth's Ghost (a dark vinicolour Maudiae-type hybrid)
Paph purpuratum (one of my favorite paph species, dark maroon and white)
Paph leucochilum (insert lengthy discussion of the invalidity of the name leuchochilum, the correct name is Paph godefroyae - and how I am still preserving that provenance in case the names should ever change).

These were FULL flasks. All total, including 3-5 exceptionally small plants I threw away because they were so small you could barely distinguish leaf from root, the three flasks held just over 100 plants. Since deflasking, I have lost 2 of the smallest plants (which I probably shouldn't have bothered to pot up in the first place).

[Bolero]

Yeah I went through the same thing Kevin, I potted up a few plants that really I shouldn't have bothered with but all of those I bought in September except for a couple are doing extremely well.

Yours look awesome! I look forward to swapping with you.......;-)

[kmarch]

Me too Darren! I think I am a little behind you because I didn't deflask until November. If I remember you did yours much earlier. Have you still got them indoors or have you hardened them all of in your shade house?

BTW, Buying that shade house was probably the smartest orchid purchase I have made since I moved here!

On a different note, Sam just emailed me a new flask list. Shall I send it on to you?

[Schlyne]

I can't tell kevin, are any of these mottled leaf? I'm guessing no, but I'm not sure.

I look forward to watching their progress

[kmarch]

Schlyne, they're actually all mottled leaf paphs. Their "mottles" aren't very prominent just yet though there is a bit of "mottle" in them.

[katrina]

They look great Kevin! One day I believe I will venture into this side of the hobby. For now, I'll just watch those of you that have the space (and patience) that I don't.

[Bolero]

Originally Posted by kmarch

Me too Darren! I think I am a little behind you because I didn't deflask until November. If I remember you did yours much earlier. Have you still got them indoors or have you hardened them all of in your shade house?

BTW, Buying that shade house was probably the smartest orchid purchase I have made since I moved here!

On a different note, Sam just emailed me a new flask list. Shall I send it on to you?

Mine are growing in the shade house and doing fairly well so far. The venustum are growing really well, the others are slower and more what I would expect from them.

Sam sent me the list but without an import permit what can we do with it?

[Brooke]

Good growing Kevin!

Brooke

[syndywindy]

Kevin, I am curious about this whole process. When I go to a place like Hausermann's they have a huge room filled with flasks. Some of which I assume can be bought. I understand you getting flasks , but would there be an advantage to the casual hobbyist to get a flask or two? They also sell compots which I have been tempted by, but those don't have id's attached to them. Just wondering.

[mytwogirls]

Originally Posted by syndywindy

Kevin, I am curious about this whole process. When I go to a place like Hausermann's they have a huge room filled with flasks. Some of which I assume can be bought. I understand you getting flasks , but would there be an advantage to the casual hobbyist to get a flask or two? They also sell compots which I have been tempted by, but those don't have id's attached to them. Just wondering.

I was wondering the same thing! Maybe I am getting WAY TOO confident in my orchid growing abilities, but I love learning new things and experimenting.

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by syndywindy

Kevin, I am curious about this whole process. When I go to a place like Hausermann's they have a huge room filled with flasks. Some of which I assume can be bought. I understand you getting flasks , but would there be an advantage to the casual hobbyist to get a flask or two? They also sell compots which I have been tempted by, but those don't have id's attached to them. Just wondering.

Originally Posted by mytwogirls

I was wondering the same thing! Maybe I am getting WAY TOO confident in my orchid growing abilities, but I love learning new things and experimenting.

Excellent question! Is there an advantage to buying flasks or compots? I think there are both pros and cons and it just depends on your interests and wants. Here are a few of each:
Pros

1. Value - even if you really go all out and spend $100-150 on a flask, there are sometimes as many as 25-30 little plants in it which means they're only $4-5 each.
2. Variety - If you like hybrids, buying a flask or compot of seed grown hybrids will give you the opportunity to see the variety hybrids can produce. Some raise them up until they flower, keep the ones they like and sell or trade the rest, which brings me to the next pro,
3. Trade/Sell - If you have 25-30 of the same orchid you can trade with friends, give some as gifts, or even sell some of them off to feed your orchid purse. New seedlings can be an exciting and appreciated addition to your orchid clubs sale table or auction. Also, as one concerned with orchid conservation, I like to see our species orchids in the hands of as many capable growers as possible. Raising orchids form flask or compots and spreading them around a bit is an easy way to do this.
4. Education/Enjoyment - One can really learn a lot by raising orchids up from a flask or compot. It's also great fun (IMHO) to see them progress from a small seedling and it brings a great deal of satisfaction to grow a seedling up to see it flower for the first time!

Cons

1. Patience - This is only a con if you're like me and have an impatient nature. Depending on what kind of orchid you grow form flask or compot, you may have a bit of a wait on your hands before any of them flower. Although I have seen with my own eyes some miniature orchids flowering in the flask, most of our commonly grown orchids will take 3-5 years to flower once deflasked. More for some, a little less for others.
2. Care - Some seedlings need to be protected a bit after being removed from flask. This can mean a variety of things, perhaps being grown indoors for a while to protect them from extremes in hot or cold, it could mean spraying with a fungicide or bactericide, it could mean taking measures to keep the humidity up or the air well circulated. My view is that it is good to acclimate seedlings to your regular growing environment as soon as possible but this usually requires a "hardening off" stage. When we grow orchids from seed in flasks and deflask orchids, we're really doing a number of things that are quite unnatural in order to increase the number of seedlings that survive. In the wild orchid seeds would never be sown in the sterile, nutrient rich environment of a flask and they would not be protected from the extremes in their environment (hot, cold, wet, dry, bugs, fungus, etc., etc). The result is that out of the few million seeds a pod releases, maybe a few dozen will make it to maturity. In order to increase the survival rate, we alter their environment (in the flask). Then when we take them out of the flask we have to protect them a bit in the way's I've described above and somewhat gradually transition them into "the real world" so to speak. Now I say all of that as an explanation and not to discourage. As can be seen from several threads on this forum, deflasking is entirely possible for almost anyone from the hobbiest to the pro.
3. Space - This is going to sound completely silly but about 2 years after I bacame na orchid nut, and had amassed a collection of about 150 orchids or so, I had a HUGE epiphany: Orchids grow and get bigger! While a compot of orchids doesn't necessarily take up any more space than one mature orchid, what happens after a year or two when you take those seedlings out of the compot and put each one of those 20-30 plants in their own small pot? What once took up only about 7 sq. inches now takes up about 2 feet of your bench space. So space might be a concern.
4. Up-front Cost - Although flasks and compots are great value (see above) the up-front costs are higher. Flasks vary greatly in price form as little as $40-45 for a mini flask (usually somewhere around 15 plants or so) up to as much as $400-500 for high-pedigree or rare orchids. I think the most I have spend on a flask is about $175 (for about 30 plants). You also need to buy a lot of seedling pots (but not if you put them in a compot), seedling mix, and a few chemicals (although I know some here on the forum do not even use chemicals in deflasking).

Other members will certainly come up with more pros and cons. I look forward to hearing their thoughts as well!

Finally just a few practical thoughts on getting your first flask or compot:

1. First of all, before you buy, learn, learn, learn! Read as much as you can on deflasking before you try it. Look at some of the detailed deflasking threads members have posted here. Look in reliable books for deflasking information. Talk to members of your local society who have done it. Maybe even suggest that your local society or club have a deflasking demonstration.
2. Learn all you can about the conditions your new orchids will need. If you're an advanced hobbiest, it still never hurts to review cultural needs.
3. Take things one step at a time. If you are not sure you're ready for a flask or compot, first try a few seedlings. Choose seedlings of a genera that you have had good success with. For example if you have had good success growing and reflowering mature cattleya intergeneric hybrids, pick up a few cattleya intergeneric hybrid seedlings. Grow them for a year or two to see if they require any special attention or have any special needs in your growing conditions.
4. If you have already had some success with seedlings, consider trying a flask or compot of the same genera. The point of doing this is to get a genera that you already know reasonably well. Eventhough I have grown dozens of genera over the years, the only orchids I have ever deflasked are paphs. They are the ones I know best. I can tell just by looking at them if they are doing well or not. I know what to expect from their growing cycles. I know what conditions they like. If you choose something you know for your first flask you will be more in your comfort zone.

Of course, here on the forum we have some adventurous souls who have jumped in with all sorts of flasks. There is certainly nothing wrong with doing this, my thoughts are merely suggestions to make one's first flask as stress free and successful as possible.

Learn and enjoy! Learn and enjoy! Learn and enjoy!

[syndywindy]

Kevin, thank you for all that information. It really is helpful and insightful. I'm not sure a flask is the right choice for me right now, but a compot is certainly worth exploring. I will look at threads here and do some more research before taking this next step. I'm sure I will have more questions before moving forward. Thanks!

[rodbender]

Good growing Kevin. I look forward to watching the progress of those.
You hit the pro's and con;s well
and I feel the education we can get from a deflasking project is a must.
The thing I like most about having so many of the same plant is it makes it alot less expensive to try diferent this with them and watching how each one grows under its conditions.

[orchidea]

Kevin, looks like you have a lot of orchid babies on your hands...
They look happy!

Who is Sam, and how can I look at his orchid compots? Not that I am ready for something like that, but just in case.......

[patticake]

Awesome! They look great! My Paph. fairrieanum x sib. (Fair Lady x Extra Fair) flask came from Sam as well! I'm still hanging in there with them. I sure wish I could trade with you "Aussies", too! Great growing!!

[exasperatus2002]

Several other things about growing from flask is that, if you are looking to import some orchids from over seas, theres less red tape importing a flask since its sterile environment, over importing a potted orchid. Granted, which ever way you do it, you still have to meet the dealers minimum order.

Sometimes, we orchid nutz get the hankering to recreate or try to create our own hybrids. Ordering a cheap flask of orchids to "practice" on is a good way to prepare for your own flasks of seedlings such as Patticake, myself & others have done. Im expecting my own flasks to be ready this spring (I hope) so Im reading what ever I can to prepare.

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by orchidea

Who is Sam, and how can I look at his orchid compots?

Sam is Sam Tsui who runs Orchid Inn, Ltd. in Illinois. The paphs I've pictured in this thread were all flasks I bought form him when he came here to Australia last year. His plants are, IMHO, top quality. Here's his website: Orchid Inn, Ltd.

[syndywindy]

I've been doing a bit of research on this tonight as I find it fascinating, and I'm not sure I am ready to tackle deflasking yet. I did look at Sam's website, very interesting and seeing it makes me want to try but there is so much yet to learn on this subject and you really have to know what you are doing. I just thought you get them out of the flask, pot them up and take care of them like you would most other orchids. Now I know thats not the case. Now I know there is a big shock factor to the orchids when deflasking and you have to gradually acclimate them to life outside the flask. I think I will look into a compot as a starting point. Does anyone have a suggestion as to what orchid might be good to try?

[Schlyne]

Thank you so much Kevin. With that in mind I think I'll try a compot before I go to a flask.

[Brooke]

Here is Troy Meyers lab where you can purchase flasks or seedlings

Flask and Established Seedling Sales, and Flasking Programs

If you want to grow Phals, Big Leaf has compots and flasks but I can't link to it, google will find it for you.

Here is Orchidview website for H.P. & Katherine Norton - they are the ones creating so many blue Phals, plus some outstanding Phrags. It is best to give them a call rather than emailing them.

Orchidview - Home of Top quality phalaenopsis and phrags orchids

I got my first compots from Norton, my first flasks from Big Leaf and just recently a flask of Bulbos from Meyers.

Kevin did a great job covering the pros and cons of deflasking but compots give you quicker results. It does get rather boring tending all those seedlings from flask when all they do is grow and you know some won't bloom for years. My first deflasked seedlings are now in 4" pots (phals) so space eventually will become an issue if you are growing 30out of flask.

My easiest to deflask (and bloom) was a Rodrumnia cross and the hardest was a Lycaste cross because the flask was contaminated. The Lycaste was also the only one I had additional fungus while in compot.

It is fun if you have patience and understand the reward is down the road.

Brooke

[syndywindy]

Thank you everyone for all the information, vendors, etc. Next time I go to Hausermann's or Oak Hill I will pay more attention to compots. Brooke, how many seedlings are generally in a compot?

[Brooke]

Synda it depends on the age of the seedlings. The younger they are, the more per pot.

Brooke

[Stelios]

great work Kevin, i am looking forward to see them as they grow and bloom.
I wouldn't get paph seedlings, i tried twice with other (regarded as easy orchids) and both times most of the seedlings died. I have 3/10 Cattleya amethystoglossa remaining from last winter and they did not really grow as much as i expected (just half a cm). From the last seedlings i got (end of Autumn), only sedirea japonica is still alive in a good number (6/10). I think i should gain more experience before trying seedlings.

[maiseymoo]

I think I will leave it a while before I venture into this, don't think I am quite ready for this yet (or have the space!) I can imagine that it such a great feeling when they are fully grown and flowering though! Will be looking forward to updates!

[mytwogirls]

Kevin thank you for the information. I would love to get into flasking. I think I am ready. I have been doing some reading on it this weekend. I am super excited. I am impatient though....NOT good...ha ha

[Forever-mango]

Kevin, thankyou for the information about flasked orchids.

My first flask of the Den. Australian Goldrush 'Bonsai' is doing very week. And i wish to try a different type of orchids. Preferably a Paph or Phrag.

How different is growing up a Den to a paph? I've been growing my flasked dens in mini bark, mini charcoal and min perlite. They seem to love it. I got 2 more flasking kits coming from AON. Hope to buy a new flask soon. Any suggestions where to purchase some quality flasks in Aus?

[kmarch]

I reckon a dendrobium seedling is as different togrow from a paph seedling as a mature den is form a mature paph. They're quite different in their needs, even more so since dens are quite a diverse genus. I just remembered that I have deflasked one flask of orchids that was not a Paph. They were Den tetragonums and unfortunately I lost the lot during last year's heat wave in Feb. Other than that, I have only ever e=deflasked paphs so I can't really be of very much help in saying precisely what the difference is.

[Brooke]

Stephen I've deflasked several different species and in the beginning they are all treated the same. "They" don't really know what they are when young, they just want to grow. Even a genus that needs dormancy to survive are never forced into it. The bigger they are going into it, the more robust they will be the next season.

I grow everything in as much light as possible without burning them, always fertilize and change the growing media every 4-6 months to keep it fresh.

Currently growing for me and all over a year old: Phals, Paphs, 2 different Catts, Psychopsis, Lycaste, Anguoloa x Lycaste, Rodrumnia, Cyc x Mormode, Pleione x Bletilla and a couple I'm forgetting.

Brooke

[kmarch]

It's been about 3 months since I deflasked the paphs pictures in the first post of this thread. I'm happy to say they are all doing well. I did loose one more tiny little straggler. All three of the flasks have been "hardened off" and are all out in my greenhouse now with all the other paphs. They're being watered according to the regemine I use for the other paphs and are essentially being treated the same as my mature paphs. Over the last couple of weeks I have noticed that it looks like several of them have started growing.

Now I have 4 more flasks (!!!) and here are pics of my deflasking of two of these. These came in glass bottles (see pics) so I wrapped the first one up in newspaper and gave it a whack with the hammer. When I opened the paper and lifted the broken flask off, the seedlings inside looked like they had been frosted. They were covered in tiny splinters of glass. The only thought I had which I can publicly post on the forum was, "Great, now what am I going to do?" I had prepared a clear glass pie plate to soak off the agar and so I moved the seedlings into the pie plate, put it in the sink and gently ran water over them to rinse off the glass splinters. The splinters sank to the bottom of the plate while the excess water spilled over the side. I strained out the glass splinters and threw them away and rinsed out the pie plate and refilled it with water. What a little DRAMA! In the end I laughed at it. You can't make things like this up. Oh the little surprises and dramas our hobby throws our way!

Pic 1 - Preparing to deflask
Pic 2 - Seedlings rinsed and spread out (more or less sorted by size) and the second flask is soaking (at the right side of the pic). I find that if I just set the seedlings in a pie plate of water, almost all of the agar dissolves away after only about 15-20 minutes or so of soaking. This makes rinsing and separating the seedlings much easier.
Pic 3 - Seedlings form the first flask are potted up, some in individual pots, some in mini compots. They're in one of those big plastic containers that you buy grapes or other produce in. If needed, I can pop the top down and make just like a small terrarium. It has lots of holes, so is well ventilated.
Pic 4 - Two flasks deflasked and potted up. The second flask had really big seedlings in it so I gave them all their own individual pots. The seedlings to the left are Paph Peppermint (niveum x adductum) and the ones on the right are Paph Somers Phil (Somers Isle x philippinense v. alba). They've received a heavy spray of Mancozeb and are now sitting in a plastic tub. I want to get these out into my orchid house before winter so I'll start trying to harden them off sooner than the other ones.

A Nifty Little Technique
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away (i.e. when I lived in America), I read about a clever little technique for planting compots which I tried out this time. The technique is to fill the pot with mix and set it in a pan or bowl. The pan or bowl has to be at least as deep as the pot you're using. A bucket would work too. Put the pot of mix in the pan and fill it with water to a level that is even with the surface of the mix. It is important that the water level is even with the surface of the mix. If it is too high the mix will settle down too far when you take the pot out. If it is too low you won't be able to insert the seedlings. If you poke your finger into the mix you'll see it easily gives way because the mix is suspended in the water, it's kind of like what happens with quick sand. Take the seedling and gently push the roots into the mix with your finger. When you pull your finger out, the plant will stay in place. If you need to adjust the seedling a little you can do this by sticking your finger into the mix and pushing the seedling around in the mix by the base of the plant. Once the pot is full, lift the pot out of the water. The mix will settle a little but not much and the seedlings should be stable in the mix. If a seedling is a little high or if a root is exposed, you can wither re-immerse the pot or just add a little mix to at the top to cover it.

I used tis method on both of the Paph Peppermint mini compots. It was really easy and it took me less time to pot both compots than it did the rest of the flask.

[orchidea]

Kevin, thank you for posting. They look happy!!! I am sure you are happy too....
Two questions I have though, did you sterilize your mix, and how if you did?
Somewhere I read to boil the mix in the water for few minutes....
My paph flask is going to arrive next Wednesday. I think I'll deflask them into seedling mix similar to yours. I am debating between sphag and mix right now.

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by orchidea

Two questions I have though, did you sterilize your mix, and how if you did?

I sterilize my pots, but not my mix. I just use it right out of the bag.

Originally Posted by orchidea

I am debating between sphag and mix right now.

You'll notice in my very first post one of the compots of smaller plants is in sphag. Eventhough they were much smaller seedlings to begin with and so will naturally be slower to grow, I am not happy with the results i'm getting from growing them in sphag. Of these most recently deflasked, I didn't put the tiny ones in sphag, but just in the same regular seedling mix. We'll see how they go.

[kmarch]

I got motivated today and deflasked the last two flasks form my last order.

Pic 1 - Getting ready to deflask


Pic 2 - The flasks - The one on the left is Paph micranthum x thaianum, the one on the right is Paph Black Diamond (delenatii x fairrieanum)


Pic 3 - The paph seedlings soaking - I find that letting soak like this for 15 minutes or so dissolves a lot of the agar and makes the roots easier to separate. You can see these are really good sized seedlings, especially the ones on the right, the Black Diamond. I noticed in both flasks some of the seedlings actually has second growths starting. I took care to make sure they were indeed second growths and not separate seedlings that were just tiny, and they were indeed second growths. I've never seen that in seedlings like this before, but then again I've never had seedlings this big.

Pics 4 & 5 - Look at the crazy roots on these!!! It took forever to untangle the roots of the Black Diamond flask. Well at least it seemed like forever. It was actually only about an hour or so.

Pic 6 - Seedlings planted!

[Brooke]

Good job!

Brooke