Terribly worried -- can anyone reassure?

[mehitabel]

I'm so worried about an orchid shipment I'm getting, and I'm hoping someone here can reassure me about them.

I ordered two very special and expensive phals from a specialty vendor in FLA. They were a birthday gift from my husband. I've ordered many orchids in winter, and always found the vendors very careful about shipping during very cold weather-- holding shipments for a warmup, etc. Eg,Oak Hill sent an email out, no shipments this week, too cold. I just assumed the same would be the case this time.

I've ordered from this vendor before, and gotten nice plants. But that was in times of better weather. He has gone ahead and shipped by post office today. I don't even know if he checked the weather at all. They have already gone, and should arrive here Weds, when the *high* here is expected to be 29F. "They will be all right", he says. Obstinate git!

I feel sick and helpless and very angry. I'd like to throttle him for stupid obstinacy.

I've concerned that they might be damaged, of course. But I'm most concerned that the damage might not show right away? I haven't seen phals that were subjected to that kind of cold. I know that extreme cold would = mush, but is there damage that's less obvious, and that takes longer to show up? I don't want to "own" such expensive phals and then have them fall apart in a few days, or suffer a slow decline.

Please help if you can.

Hope someone has some answers (and maybe even reassurance) for me.

[kmarch]

Well, even in a worst case scenerio, the phals arrive having been frozen, you still have recourse, the vendor should replace the damaged plants. I know that's probably not much of a comfort but at least you know you won't be completely stuck with the raw end of the deal. When I lived in Michigan I was usually more concerned about having orchids shipped in hot weather rather than cold. I had lots of orchids shipped in winter with very few casualities. My fingers are crossed for you!!!

[mehitabel]

Thanks very much for the reply and reassurance, Kevin.

What I was really hoping somebody knew was what cold damage actually does to phals? (aside from turning it to mush). Is there delayed damage-- damage that only shows up after several days, or even a week or two? Do leaves drop off, or is it possible for growth to be stunted?

I don't want to pay beaucoup $$ for phals because they look okay for two days but then meet an appointed long slow lingering demise. If they're mush when I get them, I can ask for a replacement or refuse to pay. That's the vendor's problem, not mine. But if the damage is delayed, doesn't appear right away? Then I'm stuck with paying a lot of money for two walking-dead phals. And I'll be mad for a long time

Getting plants that show cold damage right out of the box would be a mercy compared to that.

Hope someone has some experience with this.

[Medelia]

I don't have any advice or info to give out but I do hope your Phals arrive safely. What are the flowers supposed to look like?

[mehitabel]

Thank you for distracting me from worry and making me smile, Medelia.

They are very beautiful waxy/glossy red/magenta-- my absolutely most favorite color. I just love that color and can't resist it.

[Medelia]

Talking of red, or mostly red waxy Phals. Here's some more distraction.

This is my newest acquisition a stunning NOID I found at...Walmart, I was gonna post the pictures on a new thread but I think this is better.

Hope you like ^^

Oh and I did a bit of research on Cold Damage on Phals but there really isn't much. Just that it instills, causes or strongly encourages rot. (I might be wrong though) But you probably already know that. Will keep looking.

[mehitabel]

Oh, Wow! What a lucky find! That's the very type, Medelia! I love it.

They last forever and tend to bloom a few at a time more or less continuously, too.

thanks for the picture

[Medelia]

I found these links.

AOS | Cold Damage

PP265/PP265: Physiological Disorders in Orchids: Mesophyll Cell Collapse

I hope these will be helpful to you.

[mehitabel]

Thanks for the articles, Medelia. Very kind of you to find them for me. They are right on target, especially the AOS one.

Well, it's as I feared-- any damage might not show up right away. But talking about it a little takes some of the sting out. And the article does say not to give up on them. And to give them high humidity. I have a big humidity dome to pop them right into.

The article was really helpful because it explained something that happened to me when I brought my phals in this fall -- there was an outbreak on a half dozen or so of watery areas on the leaves. I cut that part of the leaf off them, and it didn't recur. But it was enough so I knew it wasn't just a happenstance, but something had caused it. Now I know from the AOS article what it was: cold temperatures, then followed by warmth and high light.

Next year I won't let them get quite as cold before bringing them in.

So thanks again, your distractions in the form of your beautiful phal and your information were all very helpful. I really am smiling again. Even if they're set back, I think they can be all right.

[lmartiny]

All I can say is you'll know when they come and perhaps 30 days is a reasonable period of time. I ordered from the North last year. I won't do that again. Heat packs or not. It does not seem like a good time at all. I lost one within two weeks and the offer of a replacement never came through. They weren't expensive, but still.

[orchidlover55]

I am so sorry you have been put into this predicament Mehitabel. I would be so upset until I knew for sure that my plants had no damage to them.
You may want to call and see if you can get a warranty over the phone . Ask them do they have a winter warranty that they would cover up to 30 days after you receive your order. If you spend a lot of money, you want a guaranty your going to get your monies worth and tell them that you would like to be a repeating customer but there would have to be satisfaction to do that.
Also tell them you know a lot of people that grow orchids and you would like to have a place to recommend to your friends . Nothing wrong with facts is there? Hope everything goes good for you mehitabel, let us know

[tangers40]

i know nothing about the damage they may incur, but i'm hoping for your sake the vendor put a heat pack in the box. if not, then eeeeeek.

stupid winter weather anyway. i just recently discovered aloha orchids' website.....but i'm terrified of ordering anything this time of year. the high here today was around 5 i think. i may not make it all the way to spring/summer without losing my sanity looking at that site. sooooo many pretty flowers.......

[Breezy79]

Well my order that came from Aloha Orchids last week came in 30-35 degree weather. And I was worried because I meant to order a heat pack but forgot. But they only took 2 days to get here and spent one day in the cold. They were both fine (at least I see no damage, discolor, or ill effects yet), except the one that came in bloom blasted it's flowers, but I figured it would. So perhaps there is hope? How long was the shipping on yours supposed to be?

And tangers, maybe there is hope you can get an order in...they do have some beautiful unique plants. (am not even enabling)

[plucker]

Take a photo of the plants when they arrive.
Then take one every couple of days to see if the plants are going to make it or not.

After a week or two you should see using the first photos whether there is progress or failure on the way.

My guess is that they have packed them well including protection from the cold.

Like it was mentioned earlier, my biggest concern is the heat which I have had a few plants suffer from during transit in short periods of time.

[Züleyha]

Originally Posted by mehitabel

I've concerned that they might be damaged, of course. But I'm most concerned that the damage might not show right away? I haven't seen phals that were subjected to that kind of cold. I know that extreme cold would = mush, but is there damage that's less obvious, and that takes longer to show up? I don't want to "own" such expensive phals and then have them fall apart in a few days, or suffer a slow decline.

Please help if you can.

Hello Mehitabel!

I can understand your worry !
My tip would be, don`t open the package right away, when you receive it ( i know it`s hard...) and leave it closed for about 6 hours, so that they don`t get a temperature shock again. Then open the package and check the leaves and roots.
1.The worst case would probably be, mushy leaves and leave dropping...
2.In best case ( if they where well protected packed and if they have dry roots - not watered before send to you ), you will see no damage right away - maybe a little later some colour difference at the leaves and a growth stop for a while...

In the 2. case i would put the whole plant in a sugar - Superthrive solution for about 30 minutes and repot. Then put the plants for about 1 week in a shady, intermediate temperatured place to adjust - then to their final place.

In the 1. case i would complain to the vendor!

What Phals. did you order? ( Some Phals. can take a bite more cold, then others -like cornu cervi, mannii, lindenii.. ).

I hope, your plants will be fine ! Please post us some pic`s then.

[JLu]

"I'd like to throttle him for stupid obstinacy."

I sincerely hope this works out well for you. Chances are it will. If those plants actually see 29 for any period of time I suspect they are dead ducks, but maybe the vendor's skill and experience in packing and shipping will prevent that from happening. I hope so.

That said, could I ask a dumb, but obvious, question? You called this vendor stupid and obstinate for shipping when you have a cold period in St. Louis (in mid December). You blame him for not checking your weather. When did you order these? Did you check your own weather?

Like I say, I hope it works out well, but it seems some personal responsibility might be in order rather than disparaging a guy in Florida.

[sunshine]

How are these being shipped? Post office, Fed EX or UPS. Here's my experience on the shipping end. They will be inside a building until they are
ready to put on the truck for shipment. I can't tell you anything about plane shipments but I can give you a little hindsite on truck shipments. 29 degrees isn't all that cold in the back of a trailer. Your plants will be surrounded by other bags and packages which will insulate from the cold. The majority of the warehouses are heated so the only cold they will see is probally gonna be from the delivery truck to your house. The package should be marked LIVE PLANTS DO NOT FREEZE. Those plants shouldn't be on the truck for no more than 2 days tops. Your plants will be traveling thru GA, TN and KY and IN. The temps are still pretty mild in those areas. This time of the year I am constantly checking the weather. I hope this helps you.

Züleyha's idea is excellent. Let them adjust. Less chance of shock.

Medelia, what a gorgeous waxy red. I ain't never seen nothing that pretty at Walmart. You must of got there right after the shipment did. Guess I'm gonna start paying a little more close attention to Walmart shipments.

[rcb]

Mehitabel,

You should receive a tracking number right? and chances are that distance, unless the seller deliberately chose ground (cheaper), it will go by air. And as sunshine said, most warehouses are heated.

The biggest chance for it to get cold enough to hurt the plants if it is going by air is when it is out for local delivery. What I used to do when I lived in PA and got shipments in the winter was call the local office, give them my tracking number and request it be held for pick up. Then I would run down to the office and get it when it arrived. And they did call me and let me know it arrived.

Only one time did they forget and send it out and it did sit outside in the cold for a few hours until I got home from work. A little bit of damage but they survived.

I never let a little thing like winter stop me from getting new ones LOL

[grandmapenguin]

You got so many good ideas and I also learned while I read about your dilemma. I do feel for your concern.
All I have to add is I would speak to the Vendor after they arrive and condition is determined. If they are not in good shape and he seems reluctant I would call my Credit Card Company and give them the situation. I have never not been reimbused when I turn it over to my Credit Card Company. This is of course if you feel he is at fault. Being in business I feel he is the one that should recognize all the pitfalls of shipping.
I do hope all turns out well for you.

[mehitabel]

Thanks so much for all the good wishes and good ideas, everybody. I'm impressed with all the knowledge that's collected in a place like this!

Zuleyha, thanks for tips on handling. The closed box for 6 hours will be hard. But the soak-- I didn't think of that. Great idea.

Synshine, thanks for the information on the way shipping is handled.

And rcb, thanks for the tip about maybe being able to keep it in the PO for pickup instead of on the truck.

Tangers, I wouldn't hesitate to order from Aloha. They ship all over, including cut flowers, I believe. Most vendors that ship a lot are very astute about shipping and watch the weather both at your location and at the hub. I've never had a problem with winter weather until now. Andy's Orchids once put in a requirement that the package be held for pickup, not deliver.

Thanks again!

[tangers40]

Originally Posted by Breezy79

And tangers, maybe there is hope you can get an order in...they do have some beautiful unique plants. (am not even enabling)

ahahaha you are too! you guys on here are awful!

Originally Posted by mehitabel

Tangers, I wouldn't hesitate to order from Aloha. They ship all over, including cut flowers, I believe. Most vendors that ship a lot are very astute about shipping and watch the weather both at your location and at the hub. I've never had a problem with winter weather until now. Andy's Orchids once put in a requirement that the package be held for pickup, not deliver.

now, the biggest reason i hesitate? no money. oh yeah, you mean you gotta PAY for all the pretty flowers? hehe! but maybe if i get cash for xmas i'll look further. i think i'll still wait until spring, tho. my mom sent me some candy around halloween when we had another cold snap. the box sat out in the box for no more than 8 hours or so i'd say, and everything inside was frozen solid. knowing the post office here, even if the box said DO NOT FREEZE LIVE PLANTS all over it, they'd still let it sit out in the cold. this just gives me an excuse to make a longer want list, right?

[Hobby Orchidist]

Both BUYER and ORCHID VENDOR should adopt a policy about ordering/shipping live orchids during cold periods.

As a buyer, my policy is NEVER to order live plants through the mail when they originate, travel through, or arrive when outside temps are below 50 F.

If you do order live plants from a ORCHID VENDOR under these conditions, before you place the order you should find out what the vendor's winter shipping policy is. Each ORCHID VENDOR should have a winter shipping policy. If they do not or cannot tell you what it is in plant language, then DO NOT order from them during the winter.

Many will not ship in the US between Dec and April 1 to areas that are subject to cold temps unless you pay extra for some type of expedited shipping and sometimes they will require you to PICKUP the plants from the shipper rather than expose the plants to another day on the truck for delivery

[mehitabel]

Update: the PO agreed to hold the package for me to pick up. It arrived today, and will pick up, so looks like they won't get chilled after all. So happy ending.

And for the people who said I should have come to agreement before ordering: Most vendors honor an implicit agreement of acceding to a request to delay shipment a week or "for favorable weather". I've never had one refuse, and I've made lots of orders in the middle of winter. I assumed that agreement.

This vendor "didn't check his email" til after he packed the box and then refused to hold it back from shipping. I think that pretty much meets the definition of obstinacy. Call it poor bedside manner if you prefer.

[maiseymoo]

Glad to hear that arrived safely. Hope they thrive! This thread has made me think, my mum and dad have ordered me a xmas present, they won't tell me what type of orchid it is but that will be posted and we are we are supposed to be having a cold snap this week into next week so need to check about the shipping with them!!

[mytwogirls]

YEAH!!!!!! I am so happy things worked out for you! I am thinking of ordering online as well and this thread has given me a lot of knowledge about it. Again, I am so glad everything worked out for you. Be sure and post some pics once you get them.

[loviek]

Yay!! I'm so glad the package arrived and is out of the cold. Let us know how they look. Sending prayers your way that the orchids are just fine.:-)

[mehitabel]

One I ordered was Cat's Paw Firebird, a beautiful waxy/glossy saturated red and he sent *two* different cultivars, both in spike. One of them is positively huge, will go right into a 6" pot, the other more like your usual 4" size. The other one was Formosa Ven, and that plant was small.

I only ordered two plants, so the second Cat's Paw is a gift, a really nice one, and makes up for the small Formosa Ven.

So now that everything's safe and I'm not worried any more, and I've been gifted a beautiful red Cat's Paw I'm ashamed I was so cross

Thanks everyone, for all the help and the kind words.

About pictures-- when some of the chaos here subsides, I'm going to get a digital camera and take the time to learn to post pictures. So they'll be coming soon.

[fred]

excellent out come
I never said anything in this thread because my fingers were like this all the time

[koshki]

I'm so happy everything turned out ok for you!

[Medelia]

Okay, but hurry cause I want to see those lovelies ^^

[syndywindy]

I'm glad it all worked out for you. I was kind of holding back as so many chimed in with their thoughts, I couldn't add anything different. But it does make you think a bit about ordering now with the temps so unpredictable. I'm glad if I have an orchid fix, I am close enough to a few vendors to satisfy my need. I think my car can get there without me guiding it at this point. That's not to say I wouldn't order something I saw on line tho.

[mehitabel]

Synda, I was impressed with how helpful the people at the PO were. Yesterday they called to say it hadn't come in. Then today they called to say it had.

They were just plain nice and helpful. This time of year, when they're so busy, I just hadn't expected it.

Mostly, vendors will hold plants for a week or even two if it's really cold. And yes, rub it in that you are right next door to Hausermann's and Oak Hill and can pop over there any time, whereas I can't even find a decent phal at HD.

[LauraGR]

I had post office dealings this fall. We had a really warm November, and I got 3 separate boxes of orchids marked clearly with signs about not freezing the package. Despte it being in the mid 50's out, the mail carrier left it at the Post Office and I had to go get them. Then last week, when it hit low 20's, he left a box on the front porch - facing north so no sun hitting it - with a huge label clearly marked to not allow below 50 and that I'd pick it up at the Post Office. I was amazed that only one small phallie froze, and everything else felt really cold when I pulled them out but survived - one with flowers (a dendrobium) and 2 with spikes - both Phals. I got them all quickly into warm water with root stimulant, and a week later they don't even have any yellow leaves. So they can take an awful lot of abuse, which I clearly am thankful for given my nitwit Postal carrier.

[Züleyha]

Originally Posted by mehitabel

So now that everything's safe and I'm not worried any more, and I've been gifted a beautiful red Cat's Paw I'm ashamed I was so cross

That sounds great, i am happy for you! Can`t wait to see pic`s .

[dorothea]

I'm glad everything turned out ok. can't wait for the pictures!

[syndywindy]

Originally Posted by mehitabel

Synda, I was impressed with how helpful the people at the PO were. Yesterday they called to say it hadn't come in. Then today they called to say it had.

They were just plain nice and helpful. This time of year, when they're so busy, I just hadn't expected it.

Mostly, vendors will hold plants for a week or even two if it's really cold. And yes, rub it in that you are right next door to Hausermann's and Oak Hill and can pop over there any time, whereas I can't even find a decent phal at HD.

How nice at this time of year they would take the time to call you. Maybe that's why the cost of stamps keep going up. Sorry, didn't mean to rub it in being so close to Hauserman's and Oak Hill. You forgot I'm close to Natt's Orchids and Windsong Orchids. There is also a nursery called Klehms' which the area Home Depots get a lot of their orchids from. I've never been there, but obviously it can't be too far so may have to google them and check it out. Hmmm, I think I have an itch....

[mehitabel]

Synda, I think competition from Fed Ex and UPS helps focus the mind on customer service. They reorganized the mail routes to increase the delivery load for each carrier. The new carrier gave us his card with a phone # to reach him, and a little spiel on calling him if there was ever a need for special service on a delivery ...

I think instructions about that must have come down from above (the card, which I don't believe mail carriers would buy for themselves)

I think Congress is asking the PO for better service and more productivity (mail carriers are very well paid for the skill level of the work) before covering their losses for still another year (40th in a row? -- I've lost count).

[Breezy79]

So glad everything worked out & your plants are safe. And what a nice surprise you got for all the worry & stress. Can't wait for you to post pics of them.

[syndywindy]

Originally Posted by mehitabel

Synda, I think competition from Fed Ex and UPS helps focus the mind on customer service. They reorganized the mail routes to increase the delivery load for each carrier. The new carrier gave us his card with a phone # to reach him, and a little spiel on calling him if there was ever a need for special service on a delivery ...

I think instructions about that must have come down from above (the card, which I don't believe mail carriers would buy for themselves)

I think Congress is asking the PO for better service and more productivity (mail carriers are very well paid for the skill level of the work) before covering their losses for still another year (40th in a row? -- I've lost count).

I know what you mean. We've had the same mail carrier for as long as I can remember, a very nice guy. We talk all the time and they just changed his route and he's not happy with how its been redone. More homes and where we are, they are told where to go first. He said the way they have him going takes so much time as there is no rhyme or reason to the route. And when he said if I do it this way, it would be easier and quicker, but they won't let him. He knows that I order orchids and he's very good about making sure they aren't left out if no one is at home. Too bad they are limited in the amount you can give them at the holidays, because we would give him so much more. Just a good guy.

[mehitabel]

Originally Posted by syndywindy

Too bad they are limited in the amount you can give them at the holidays, because we would give him so much more.

Never heard of this -- what is the gift limit?

[syndywindy]

Originally Posted by mehitabel

Never heard of this -- what is the gift limit?

He can get no more than a $20 gift. We hadn't heard of this either until he said something. Although I don't know how anyone but the mail carrier and the giver would know. But he has always questioned before taking a gift from us.

[orchidlover55]

YAY Mehitabel, I am so happy for you , I know that was a scare to think such a beautiful orchid would be hurt. I hope you have a wonderful Christmas with your new chids

[Schlyne]

Originally Posted by syndywindy

He can get no more than a $20 gift. We hadn't heard of this either until he said something. Although I don't know how anyone but the mail carrier and the giver would know. But he has always questioned before taking a gift from us.

It has to do with corporate type limits, ethics, implied favors, bribery, and what not. We were limited on the pricing amount of things we could receive from customers when I worked in corporate.

All it takes is one neighbor to see you or somebody to make a remark, complain and claim preferential treatment.