Repotting, what to do with this giant?

[whalloper]

Hello,

I went to remove both a Phal. Brother Pepride and a Phal. Brother Sara Gold from their pots and this is what I found. They were in a 5.5" pot and I have a picture of one sitting in a 6.5" pot. They each have 3 Keikis and one keiki has a spike, but no roots. The picture is after I picked off all the dead roots, even those brown ones are totally solid. What should I do? I would really like a clear pot, but they are hard to find above 6.5"...does anyone know a place that sells them?

[PhalPal]

Here is one site I found that I buy from a lot but their handling charge may be too much for just a few pots. Their prices are great, however if you need some other supplies to make it worth the charge. New Page 4 (Cal West Tropical)

Heres another one that is one of my favorites. Both of these places have just started carrying these clear pots in large sizes so I think they are gaining popularity. Rigid Plastic Orchid PotsThis place also carries these great 'Terracota Plastic Pots' that they advertise for Paphs, but I find them too big for Paphs and use them for my smaller Cyms. They are deep and sturdy and work great.

I hope you find what you are looking for!!

[kmarch]

What a huge root mass! I'd do the same thing with it as if it didn't have a huge root ball. I'd remove the dead, mushy roots and pot it into the smallest size pot that can comfortably accommodate the roots. I'm not sure what you're referring to as a keiki. Keikis are baby plants that come on the inflorescences. I dont' see any keikis in your photo. But nothing really to worry. Your plant looks nice and healthy.

[Ron]

Hi, if it was my plant and it was in the growing season, I would try to open up the root system to 'completely' remove all the inner and old roots.
I would try too get rid of about 1/3 of the root ball.
If unable to buy clear pots try finding clear plastic container such as food bottles , jars etc.
Burn or cut a fair few 1/2 inch holes in the bottom and repot up to the base of the leaves.
I have sent a photo of one of mine.
The idea being that all new roots will quickly grow down into the mix.
Cheerio
Ron

[mehitabel]

Good advice from Kevin and Ron. If you put it into a big pot and it has mushy roots, it is likely to be overpotted. Be extremely cautious of using a pot over 6" is IMO. The volume of medium goes up hugely with just a 1" increase in diameter of pot, access to air goes up minimally.

As Bob Gordon put it, the problems you have with big pots tend to solve themselves-- the roots rot, then it goes into a smaller pot.

[whalloper]

This ones keikis or new growths, whatever, are growing out of the sides where spikes would form... It has 3, I could get u better pics if you would like. This is the root mass after any dead ones were cut back. Would a 7.5" pot work?

[Brooke]

Yes you can grow a phal in a large pot IF you use something in the middle of the phal to take up space. Phal roots grow around the edge of the plant and if you seperate all those roots you will find nothing but the stem. If you use a net pot or p'nuts glued together (yes I've done that) under the phal stem, you reduce the amount of the media in the middle of the pot.

If you are brave, you can also trim the roots, dab the cut tips with cinnamon, and the roots will branch. You can then repot into a smaller pot.

Your keikis are basal growths or sometimes called basal keikis which are quite common with pulcherrima and venosa in the background. There is another species that does this also but it slipped out of my memory cell right now.

Brooke

[FLBob]

Whalloper, what medium were you using to grow that wonderful mass of roots?

[whalloper]

Great info!!

Brooke, Ive seen some Phals come to me with small net pots in the center of the root mass, and I think youre totally right in this situation, I will definitely do that!

Ron, I would never be able to cut live roots off, I dunno, just cant do it. Thanks for telling me to cut holes, thats always good I feel.

Mehitabel, Ive been drilling holes in some of my pots. If I decide to go with the 7.5", could I just drill extra holes? I also have a couple of 7" net pots at home that I bought a while ago. The root mass fits, and that certainly would allow airflow!!

FLBob, they are grown in bark.

[whalloper]

Originally Posted by PhalPal

Here is one site I found that I buy from a lot but their handling charge may be too much for just a few pots. Their prices are great, however if you need some other supplies to make it worth the charge. New Page 4 (Cal West Tropical)

Are these pots good?! They are the cheapest clear pots Ive ever seen by a lot!!! And their wooden baskets are dirt cheap! Please let me know that quality, thanks for the link!!

[koshki]

FYI rePotme Orchid Supplies - Orchid Mix - Orchid Pots - Orchid Care - Orchid Fertilizer has 8" clear plastic pots.

[orchidlover55]

Hello Whalloper, the site Phalpal gave to you is the one I order everything from and I am very happy. They are usually fast on deliver too. The have great pots.

[PhalPal]

Originally Posted by whalloper

Are these pots good?! They are the cheapest clear pots Ive ever seen by a lot!!! And their wooden baskets are dirt cheap! Please let me know that quality, thanks for the link!!

I know I know!!! They have great prices and their quality is EXCELLLENT! I started potting/mounting a bunch of my orchids when I found their wooden baskets were so cheap. I've never been disappointed with their products.

[PhalPal]

Originally Posted by mehitabel

As Bob Gordon put it, the problems you have with big pots tend to solve themselves-- the roots rot, then it goes into a smaller pot.

Bob Gordon is such a kick, isn't he???? I love reading his books, so practical and to the point!

[whalloper]

Ok, I got impatient and heres what I did...



Thats a 7 inch mesh pot which it actually fit very well. I put some packing peanuts in the center of the root ball, and put it in a bark/coco husk mix. I think I will have to water it very often, the root to medium ratio is probably 50/50 haha!! Anyone object?

[Ron]

Thats a 7 inch mesh pot which it actually fit very well. I put some packing peanuts in the center of the root ball, and put it in a bark/coco husk mix. I think I will have to water it very often, the root to medium ratio is probably 50/50 haha!! Anyone object?

I can give you my 2 cents worth of my knowledge, first it looks ok, 'but' I would actually fill the potting mix up to the base of the plant, were you can see a new root starting to grow.

I put some packing peanuts in the center of the root ball,

This I would never use or do, they act like mini sponges and hold a lot of moisture, but it is your plant so you can do as you like
Best of luck with the plant.
Cheerio
Ron

[Brooke]

Ron if your p'nuts turn into sponges then you must be using the recycled p'nuts which turn into glue. I use p'nuts in 90% of my pots and the only problem I have with them is the roots love to grow through the material. Many people make their own perlite by cutting up p'nuts.

Walloper I think the phal will love the net pot.

Brooke

[whalloper]

Originally Posted by Ron

I can give you my 2 cents worth of my knowledge, first it looks ok, 'but' I would actually fill the potting mix up to the base of the plant, were you can see a new root starting to grow.

This I would never use or do, they act like mini sponges and hold a lot of moisture, but it is your plant so you can do as you like
Best of luck with the plant.
Cheerio
Ron

Brooke, these are definitely not the recycled peanuts, styrofoam all the way. Ron, are you talking about the recycled ones? Ive never heard of styrofoam holding water. Can I please have some opinions. The reason I didnt fill the pot up a little further is there is a very small keiki at the base.

[Ron]

Ron, are you talking about the recycled ones? Ive never heard of styrofoam holding water. Can I please have some opinions.

Peanuts are peanuts, Styrofoam pieces are Styrofoam.
In Australia, peanuts shells are use a lot in Cymbidium mixes just for that purpose, to add an item to hold water in, As I said I never use them.
Styrofoam would be ok I suppose, again I never use it.
I would have trimmed off all the old and useless roots and put it into straight CoCo nuggets.
It is how I would have done it but it is your plant, cheerio
Ron

[PhalPal]

Ron we must have different syrofoam peanuts over here!! I use them in the center of my Phals as well and they act like a little piece of plastic in the center and keep the roots very dry. If I soaked my peanuts in a bowl of water they would just float to the top and not absorb a drop.Go figure??? Anton has live over here; maybe he can chime in and tell us his experiences having lived in both places.

Walloper I think your phal will like your net basket too!! I grow many phals in wooden baskets and the roots grow in and out of the little slats. I treat them almost like a mount; they need more water than a pot but less than a traditional sphagnum mount on cork. (my MO) I wouldn't change a thing.
BTW - you can get a metal hanger and hang it when it spikes, letting the flowers hang down as they do in nature. It's very pretty!

[whalloper]

Thanks PhalPal! I was wondering where I was going to fit this thing! Maybe Ill repot it into a 10" basket. I have a Brother Sara in a 6" wooden basket and I love it. I used moss, what did you use?

[Ron]

Hi.
Sorry about the peanut mix up.
Here in Australia we use the shells (husks) of the edible peanuts, often referred to as Peanut shells or just Peanuts to the ones in the usage of them.
As for the Styrofoam ones, that up to you, personally I would look at why you use them!
I find no reason to use them in my mix.
Anyway! Currently I have 17 Phallies in bloom, all grown from flasks in the last 20 months or so and all in 12 to 18 CoCo nuggets.
Cheerio and good luck
Ron

[berniep]

G'Day

When I first started looking after orchids, my first stop was this forum and I had repotted a huge cattleya into a huger pot, and I was advised (quite rightly) the pot was too deep either cut the pot down or use syrofoam to take up the excess room in the bottom of the pot, so as to give more drainage and air intake. I have as a matter of course done this with broken up syrofoam box in all my orchids and it works for me.
The syrofoam doesn't absorb water. Just my two cents worth.

Cheers
Bernie

[Brooke]

Ron you can use the styrofoam p'nuts for multiple reasons.

As Walloper has done, to fill in the middle of a very large plant so the media is around the edge instead of the middle of a big pot. Using the media only where the roots are makes for more even drying inside the pot.

As Bernie has done, in the bottom of a pot to again use less media, create air spaces below the roots.

Some cattleyas "climb" as they grow, when I repot one of those, I put extra p'nuts under the oldest part so the newer rhizome will remain in contact with the media. The extra p'nuts "tips" the newest part down to make contact.

I use almost the same technique when I repot a lycaste with more p'nuts under the pbulbs to create a mound so the newest growths and spikes will be above the rim of the pot. This eliminates the new growth or spikes from growing into the edge of the pot. It is hard to guess just exactly how and where this species will pop growths.

I used p'nuts to create the middle of my Neofinitia. I bought my first glue gun to make the insert for the middle

I use deep net pots for many of my bulbos. Most bulbos are shallow rooted and wander around like crazy. I don't want the media as deep as the pot so after I line the bottom and sides with sphag, I drop in p'nuts then add the media. The end product is enough media for the roots but if they wander over the edge, and most do, they can attach to the side of the pot in the sphag.

Roots will readily grow through the p'nuts so they must not object. Be careful they are styrofoam and not the p'nuts made from recycled material.

Congrats on so many phals blooming. It is getting colorful here too with the fall and winter plants starting to bloom.

Brooke

[PhalPal]

I use either a little net pot or peanuts to create a void in the center of my root ball, because this seems to be the area most prone to rotting roots on Phallies. If my orchid decides it wants to use this space it will simply grow through the peanuts as Brooke stated above. At first I was a purest and didn't like these foreign objects in my mix, but I haven't found anything else that works better.

[maria1971]

I have a huge phalaenopsis and potted it in a 6x7 Aircone pot. I used the phal mix posted here, and packing peanuts in the bottom.


It loves it.

[mehitabel]

I use 6" aircones for my big phals, too, with large size coconut husk chips, but no peanuts. They fill up the entire pot, stick roots out the sides and bottom and top. Like yours, Maria, they love the aircones.

Aircone pots

[whalloper]

Originally Posted by mehitabel

I use 6" aircones for my big phals, too, with large size coconut husk chips, but no peanuts. They fill up the entire pot, stick roots out the sides and bottom and top. Like yours, Maria, they love the aircones.

Aircone pots

I just got two tiny 2" aircone pots for a couple of mini phals...so far, so good. Do you add additional holes in the sides of yours?

Mehitabel, do you think the phal in the picture will be ok in this net pot?

[maria1971]

I did not add additional holes to the aircone pots. They have enough ventilation. As a matter of fact, I grow my entire collection of orchids (well, those that are potted) in Air Cone pots. They are a little pricey, but I think they are worth it. I don't know what I'm going to do when they outgrow the largest pots!! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK!!!!

[mehitabel]

Hi, whalloper. I don't make extra holes in the sides, but I make extra holes in the bottom. Basically, I make as many holes in the bottom as I can make while retaining the integrity of the pot. So I know that wetness is not being retained in the middle (the aircone) or at the bottom (the extra holes). These are the places where excess medium tends to stay wet and start problems. I use them with coconut husk chips which retain air and water both. So for me, this solves the air/wetness problem.

Since indoors, I keep them over humidity trays, the extra holes in the bottom provide humidity for the roots in the bottom of the pot, without wetness. Best of all possible worlds

I did overpot a few phals last June -- I knew they were a little small for the pots, but just an inch or so, so I went ahead. They were going outside and I thought they would dry out more out there, and could use the extra medium as a reserve against getting too dry.

HAH! So much for that theory. I wuz wrong! I depotted them in September because I could see the roots had never reached the outside of the pot, and going into winter... When I depotted, there was 2" of wet, soggy medium at the bottom. I mean *wet*. I did catch most of them before the roots went, but I had to downsize the pots, pronto.

So I have more fear now of the too-big pot than I had before. If a summer outside won't correct for a slightly too big pot, nothing will. For a big pot, I'd say, make sure your roots touch the side *and* are within an inch or so of the bottom.

I've actually pondered the problem you're worrying about--how big to go. I've been over and over in my mind about whether to pot some of my big ones that are practically falling out of the 6" into bigger pots, but I've decided not to do it. A 7" pot has 50% more medium than a 6". A 50% increase in medium is whopping. It's the same effect of using a finer medium, or watering more often.

I've used the net pot in the middle, also the peanuts in the middle, but I like the air cones better.

Will your phal do okay in the 7" net pot? I don't know-- there's no one thing works for everyone, and for some people it might work. For me, I don't think so. I tend to be an overwaterer, and I need to avoid the extra medium, which is bound to get soggy *for me*. Maybe that's not true for you. But I would urge you to be cautious with the big pots. If you can fit your big phals into 6" aircones, go for them instead.

I'm sure everyone is sick to death of me citing Bob Gordon, but he's very strong on the subject of avoiding oversize pots. He actually cuts long roots back to 5" length (his handspan) so he can get them into an azalea pot. It's hard to get myself to do that, but I have done it, and with a little dab of root hormone on the cut ends, they actually branch!

Since you have so many beautiful phals, my best advice is buy Gordon's book. *The Culture of the Phalaenopsis Orchid*. It's the best how to book on phals available. You can get it used, in perfect condition, on Amazon for under $15. If you have 10 phals, that's $1.50 eachfor the best advice going.

The 6" aircones are $2.55 or thereabouts. You can get the book and the aircones at the same time, in a week or so and be safe.

Hope this helps.

[Brooke]

Here is an 3" aircone pot with seedlings in them.



Here is a 4" aircone pot, with p'nuts in the bottom.



Who do some pots have no p'nuts and why do some have p'nuts? Because it doubles the range of pots I have to fit my root mass. When you need to repot but the next size up is still a tad bigger than you need, use the p'nuts to fill the extra space.

The idea of why we use clear pots is to let us know when to water. If there are moisture beads on the inside of the pot, don't water. If the media looks dry but you still have the moisture beads it means the middle of the pot is still damp.

In the second picture you can also see the green roots - another indication the pot doesn't need to be watered. If the roots were white, or very light, then it would be time to water.

The large net pot will dry out slower than a plant grown in a basket but faster than an enclosed plastic pot. The net pot will get very heavy when you water it and will be very light when it needs to be watered. The weight variation of the net pots is even more noticeable than on a plastic pot. Your phal should love having the extra ventilation around it's roots.

I second Mehitabel's suggestion of investing in a good book........or two. You can learn by reading and an even a better teacher, learn by doing.

Brooke

[whalloper]

Brooke, thanks again for some more great help. Its been about 3 days since I repotted and the roots on the outside seem dry, but I can still feel some moisture when I put my finger down in the center of the medium so Im going to wait to water.

BTW, Im guessing the Phal in the second pic is a bastianii?? I have a baby bastianii, cant wait until it grows up to look like that one!! What is the first one, that is now on my wish list Its a really nice shade of purple and a different flower shape, I love it! I can kinda see its a bellina cross, but I cant make out the writing 100%. Thanks for posting those pictures!