Leaves just fell right off!! 2 very different plants

[whalloper]

Hello,

I just got home this morning after being away for 4 days. Everything looked good and most needed watering. I spent much of the day checking, watering, and repotting new phals. My small equestris I had on my window ledge (3" pot) was dry so I picked it up to water. The new leaf and the second newest fell right off. Then, the other 2 leaves were easily detached from the stem. The plant was healthy as could be when I left...good roots, and was forming a small spike. There are no leaves, but I can see what appear to be healthy roots through the clear pot. Maybe theyre dead, delayed reaction. The only thing I can think of is that it was right next to the glass and it got too cold a couple of nights when I was away. I am careful about getting water down in the crevices when I water.

Then, I have this one in my nursery that didnt get cold where basically the same thing happened. However, unlike the equestris, this was a very very unhealthy plant, although the leaves looked fine, no wrinkling, no discoloration. I say it was unhealthy because it had very few roots at all. What could this be? I would like to stop it before it takes another plant?!

[vcuchick]

Maybe crown rot? What do you mean by "getting water down in the crevies?" crevies of the potting medium or the plant itself? Maybe post a picture or two?

[whalloper]

Originally Posted by vcuchick

Maybe crown rot? What do you mean by "getting water down in the crevies?" crevies of the potting medium or the plant itself? Maybe post a picture or two?

Info Ive read of crown rot so far says it starts as blemishes on the leaves. These leaves had no visible problem. Picture wouldnt really be worth it, healthy leaves falling off brown center.

[kid a]

It could very well be the cold. But I am not sure haha. Don't worry though some experts will come along with some thoughts!

[mehitabel]

Originally Posted by whalloper

Info Ive read of crown rot so far says it starts as blemishes on the leaves. These leaves had no visible problem. Picture wouldnt really be worth it, healthy leaves falling off brown center.

Hi, Whalloper. I have never seen anyone write of crown rot starting as blemishes on leaves. Are you thinking of a particular source? Leaf blemishes *can be* rot, and if so *can* spread to the crown. But crown rot--

Here's what Bob Gordon says about crown rot in *Culture of the Phalaenopsis Orchid*:

>"Crown rot is a bacterial disease caused by standing or persistent water in the cup-like crown of the plant" p. 105

Here's what he says about multiple leaf drop, p. 107

>"Any time a Phalaenopsis plant has more than one dead leaf on it, be alerted that something is probably wrong"

Healthy leaves falling off a brown center is exactly what I think of when I think crown rot. And it's always shocking when the first clue you have of it is the leaves falling off. But it does happen. Yes, it's happened to me. I use a dilute Physan 20 solution in a spray bottle as a preventive.

[orchidlover55]

I have had crown rot before with one of my orchids and it happens very quick. My husband or I left water in the crown of one of my phals and by the next watering the crown was like mush and the leaves starting falling off. I took out the mush and poured peroxide in it and it boiled for a few minutes and I took a q-tip and dried it out and it is doing great now. I guess I caught it just in time before the crown rot got more of the plant. I am sorry about your orchid I know it makes us so sad when we loose one of our orchids. I hope you can put it in ICU and it will get better.

[NancyG]

I agree with the crown rot ananlysis. I had a phal that looked perfectly healthy and one day the whole top 3 leaves just fell off. Sorry it happened to you.

[Celcat]

If cold was the culprit, your leaves would have almost the same symptom as for sunburn. the leaves would wrinkle too and get very flufy. And it does not start with top leaf. I have encountered this problem last winter when I left one of my phal in the commun corridor and I have inherited some phals who have stayed in a cold house for 3 weeks. So I doubt your problem it is the cold. I think it is more likely to be crown rot. I had one orchid who went to orchid heaven that way. It went very fast, it did not show any signs or symptom until the top leaf dropped, and a second one, etc...
My local nursery does use cinnamon podwer, they springle the cinnamon in the crown.

Good luck

Celine

[whalloper]

thanks everyone for your help. I cant figure out in your situations if you had any leaves remaining or not. These were two different plants, one healthy, one not. In the healthy one, I can see green roots in the medium, but it has no leaves!! Can this be saved in any way?

[Schlyne]

green roots would indicate that it can still undergo photosynthesis of some kind...it might be able to produce leaves if it has enough roots I think.

Give it a try?

[mehitabel]

Originally Posted by whalloper

In the healthy one, I can see green roots in the medium, but it has no leaves!! Can this be saved in any way?

Sometimes they will put up a basal keiki. If I had a greenhouse, I might shove it under a bench and see what happened. Without a gh, I personally don't have the space for keeping such an ugly thing around long enough for that to happen. Even if I try keeping it for a while, one of these days I'll just decide it's not worth it, and pitch it.

But if you are inclined, it won't hurt to try. Don't expect 100% success. Be doubly sure you have eliminated all the rot, as any new growth can sprout and then be killed off by the rot if it's still there. Don't water as often as you would a plant with leaves -- there are no leaves to give off the moisture in transpiration, so the need for watering is greatly reduced.

[whalloper]

well it was a small equestris spiking for the first time, so its just in a 3" pot, I can find a place for it. I sprayed cinnamon solution (cinn xtract, water, rubbing alcohol, dishsoap) down into the center. Should that do for the rot? Does it matter if I keep it shaded or very bright so the roots can photosynthesize (its in a clear pot)?

[mayres]

I'd keep it where it can get root photosynthesis if there are roots available that can carry on. Like mehitabel notes - don't expect any miracles....
I agree with the crown rot diagnosis. With my own plants I have had for a some time - I have no issue with crown rot - even watering all over the plants and allowing water to pool anywhere it wants - including in the crown - PROVIDED it is done in the morning and it is warming and the moisture will evaporate before cooling begins in the early evening. How do you think folks with huge greenhouses water their plants? They certainly never are concerned about getting water out of the crowns of thousands upon thousands of phals. I have about 70 phals that I often water with a sprinkling can in the bathtub this way - works great! With that said, I have found my practice will not necessarily work with a new plant or someone elses plant - evidently there can be or may be a resident population of microbes on a plant coming from other sources that will not tolerate my process/conditions. A work acquaintenance gave me a phal she had had for several years that was not blooming - for me to flower for her (like all my other plants). In a month it got crown rot (seemed to be almost overnight!) and dropped every leaf at the snap of a finger! Wow was I surprised. Sometimes it just seems to happen no matter what you do?!
Having a bottle of physan 20 and using it occasionally as a preventative is probably not a bad idea - giving this some thought since I already purchased some for my recently deflasked phal "babies".......

[whalloper]

I got a gift certificate to Hausermann's , so I will add a bottle of Physan 20 to the order. How does anyone recommend I use it as a preventitive? Can I add a tiny amount to my water when watering every once in a while? What do you guys do is I guess what Im asking.

[mehitabel]

Hi, mayres. Thanks for the observations about watering early when the day is getting warmer, etc. That's exactly what I try to do, too. Your observations about new plants being more susceptible-- very interesting. I'll see if my own observations bear that out.

About Physan 20 as a preventive -- I'm pretty sure I read about using Physan 20 as a preventive in Bob Gordon's book. I've been using it for at least three years. I don't use it all the time, just when conditions are favorable for rot.

eg when there's days of rain and gloom outdoors, this causes water to get caught in all sorts of crevices. Not just on phals, but on the new growths of catts and other orchids. Then I take the opportunity of a lull in the rain to mop up the extra wetness with the corner of a paper napkin, then spray with the Physan.

eg when it's very hot and humid for a few days -- temps over 95 -- that also increases the likelihood of rots, so I spray them.

Then, as you say, I also spray if I just think I should. If I ever *have to* water or spray a plant at night for some reason, I set a fan directly on it to make sure it gets good and dry before the lights go off.

The Physan is a contact anti-bacterial/anti-fungal and is supposed to give about 3 days of protection. That's enough to get you by most problems, but if the inciting conditions last for a week or so, then they get two sprayings.

I've never had one moment's problem doing this. It's the only "preventive" I use, and IMO, you have to prevent these bacterial rots because they are too fast to stop if they get started.

Dilution: follow the instructions on the bottle for orchids, and put it in a spray bottle to keep around all the time. You *can* water with it, I don't. Remember, it's a *contact* product, you need it where the problem is. However, do not water a dry plant with it or any other chemical. Always water first.

Following Gordon, I *sometimes* spray the roots with it when repotting. After pruning. Not always, tho. I use my own judgment about using it.

[mehitabel]

Bob Gordon warns against excessive use of Physan 20 on seedlings. Apparently frequent use is toxic to them. And BTW, I can confirm this from my own experience.