Phal loosing the newest leaf

[Stelios]

I have posted about a yellow NOID phal with a basal growth on the 'anyone having fall phal spikes' thread.

The plant had suffered some minor root rot but it is alright now. It has 2 spikes from last season with healthy stalling buds on the tips. However as soon as the basal growth started to develop in size the newest leaf started to die. I am concerned.

What would you advise is should do?

[mehitabel]

Beautiful little keiki, Stelios!

Newest leaf has yellowed: My guess would be crown rot is causing the death of the new leaf, and maybe even the keiki formed in response to that.

If it were mine: I would jiggle that newest leaf around, see if it comes loose. If it does, then put your eagle eye to work examining the tissue under and around it. If you see any brown/rot tissue in there, then I would try to cut below it with sterile cutters. Then spray the whole plant, and especially the stump with Physan 20 (or whatever a similar product is called there).

I'm saying this because *just yesterday* I had to deal with this on a phal. This was a phal with a newer leaf, a spike and a tiny new leaf app 1/4". It had two rot spots, one on each side of the stem for several months, but it continued to "grow". I thought it the rot in those spots had been licked, as the outside had dried.

I had noticed the new little 1/4" in trouble, and yesterday it was clearly all rotted away. So I was trying to clean out the place, and I guess I wiggled the newer leaf, and it just popped right off, and I could see the old rot spots had been dried off on the outside, but rampaging on the inside.

When I cut below again, below the rot spots, I could see a ring of brown rot all around the stem under the cuticle. Poor thing, it was a no-hoper, even tho it looked until the last week or so in the pink of health as the leaves clung to the rotting stem.

Not to say this is common, but it won't hurt to jiggle that dead leaf a little, see if it comes loose, and find out what's underneath. I'll be very curious to find out what you have in there.

In your case, you have the keiki so you won't lose the plant like I did.

[Stelios]

i went and checked it again. The leaf is not wiggly nor soft or mushy. It's firm close to the plant and dried out half way from the tip. No signs of bite marks or rot underside or in the heart of the plant/crown. The roots are green plum and with active tips and medium retains just the right amount of moisture without any signs of rot or mold (it is also fresh bark).
The leaf was not sun burnt, it just started yellowing and drying a couple of days after the new growth started to grow. I worry that the keiki is killing the plant since i can not find any other scause for it to loose the newest leaf. Is this possible?

[mehitabel]

Sorry, Stelios. I wouldn't think so, because there are a lot of two-crown plants you see around, also Cultural Merit awards to multi-crown plants. But I don't really know, I don't have enough experience with keikis.

My own belief is still that something happened or is going on with that leaf. But who knows?

[FLBob]

My first thought was crown rot, but as I continued to look at the photo, it just didn't feel like the right answer. The yellowing appears to be happening from the leaf tip and moving back.
A good friend of mine who has been growing orchids for 40 years has a saying; "look in the pot first". Maybe it's just time to re-pot. remove all the old media, soak the plant is a disinfectant solution and start with nice fresh phal mix.

If a phal pup killed the parent, many of my phals would be history. Some of my plants will send up new pups an a regular basis.

[mayres]

Very curious indeed. If it were mine I'd be inclined to remove all but the first inch or so of the yellowing leaf by cutting it with a sharp sterile knife. I'd also consider removing the spent flower spikes - I just like 100% of the plant's energy targeted towards building up my plants whenever they are in questionable health. Keep us informed - something we ALL can learn something from perhaps! (I'm assuming you checked the underside of that leaf and didn't find any pests?! I've had situations where a leaf would yellow and low and behold there was a colony of mealies underneath. Of course sometimes it is hard to know which came first - the weakened leaf or the pests.).

[dorothea]

one of my phals had a similar situation - one of the leaves got some spray on it (don't ask). after few days it looked like this so I just cut the yellow part off. maybe it happened to yours too . it doesn't hurt if you try and cut of the yellow part off to stop it from spreading

[Ron]

I worry that the keiki is killing the plant since i can not find any other scause for it to loose the newest leaf. Is this possible?

Hi, my penny worth of help.
I personally think it has problems with the roots.
Phallies love to be repotted every 2 years or so.
Old mixes get sour, It looks like spag moss, I do not like spag as I find it causes more problems that it is worth.
The plants reaction to loss of roots is to shed some of the older leaves to help support new growth, this is not happening, it can not support the new growth.
The new side growth would not take much out of the plant if it was healthy and well fed.
Personally I would repot it! give it warmth and TLC.
Best of luck
Ron

[Stelios]

Originally Posted by FLBob

Maybe it's just time to re-pot. remove all the old media, soak the plant is a disinfectant solution and start with nice fresh phal mix.

It's just a month since i repoted with fresh medium. I soaked the bark first.

Originally Posted by mayres

Very curious indeed. If it were mine I'd be inclined to remove all but the first inch or so of the yellowing leaf by cutting it with a sharp sterile knife. I'd also consider removing the spent flower spikes - I just like 100% of the plant's energy targeted towards building up my plants whenever they are in questionable health. Keep us informed - something we ALL can learn something from perhaps! (I'm assuming you checked the underside of that leaf and didn't find any pests?! I've had situations where a leaf would yellow and low and behold there was a colony of mealies underneath. Of course sometimes it is hard to know which came first - the weakened leaf or the pests.).

Yes i checked, no pests or rot. The spikes have stalling buds and sub-spikes so it would be such a pity to be cut.

Originally Posted by dorothea

one of my phals had a similar situation - one of the leaves got some spray on it (don't ask). after few days it looked like this so I just cut the yellow part off. maybe it happened to yours too . it doesn't hurt if you try and cut of the yellow part off to stop it from spreading

I don't think any spray got on it. The thing does not look like an infection of any kind. The progress is exactly like when phals or paphs are loosing their bottom leaves over time, it's just that now it is the newest one.

Originally Posted by Ron

Hi, my penny worth of help.
I personally think it has problems with the roots.
Phallies love to be repotted every 2 years or so.
Old mixes get sour, It looks like spag moss, I do not like spag as I find it causes more problems that it is worth.
The plants reaction to loss of roots is to shed some of the older leaves to help support new growth, this is not happening, it can not support the new growth.
The new side growth would not take much out of the plant if it was healthy and well fed.
Personally I would repot it! give it warmth and TLC.
Best of luck
Ron

It's bark and some bark dust on top to help keep moist. I checked the roots and they are looking great. It is recently repoted. The plant suffered some root loss from rot in the summer but the leaf was developed after i repoted along the new growth. As soon as the leaf developed it started yellowing from the tip.

If it continues approaching the crown i will cut it with a sterile knife but i really find it a strange thing to happen.

[Stelios]

it just fell off. After getting yellow and dry it fell of along the heart of the plant. the tip of the crown?
I tried to look inside and it seams like there was some minor rot? i can't be sure, it looks dry now. All the other leaves are very healthy and the remainder crown is firm to the touch.
Is it going to grow any more leaves from the old growth or it will only grow from the basal keiki?

[mayres]

Hard to say for certain because I have had a new crown come out of what appeared to be a rotted crown beyond repair, but the percentages would say that your new basal keiki WILL BECOME your new plant with time (no additional growth from THIS crown).

[mehitabel]

Originally Posted by Stelios

it just fell off. After getting yellow and dry it fell of along the heart of the plant. the tip of the crown?
I tried to look inside and it seams like there was some minor rot? i can't be sure, it looks dry now. All the other leaves are very healthy and the remainder crown is firm to the touch.
Is it going to grow any more leaves from the old growth or it will only grow from the basal keiki?

I agree with Mayres. The growth of your plant is most likely to go to the keiki now. And BTW, from your picture it's taking it's job as the new boss plant seriously -- it's been growing like gangbusters. The old crown is probably done for, why the keiki formed to start with.

You may get more keikis, tho. I read a quote by an old phal hand that if you want a multi-crown phal, just take a screwdriver and dig out the center of the old crown. I have never verified that, of course , but it's an intriguing thought.

I would spray the center of the crown with Physan 20 or it's equivalent, just to make sure the rot has in fact stopped. You can have rot growing inside that seems dry on the outside (as I mentioned in my previous post).

[Stelios]

So here's an update on this phal.
The new growth was indeed a basal keiki and was caused by minor crown rot that led to the newest leaf loss. The "mother plant" managed to keep both of it's spikes. At the moment one spike shows signs of buds forming on the tip and on the other spike there are active tips also (it has a sub spike).Furthermore a new sub-spike is developing.
From the new growth there is also a new spike starting as we speak

I am very happy it managed to re-bounce like that.

[Undergrounder]

That has recovered quickly, great news! And the basal keiki is very advanced and healthy! You must have decent roots.

With the mother plant, it looks like the stem must have died or rotted just below the top leaf, killing the growing point and stopping nutrients getting to the top leaf, killing it. I noticed that the top leaf had grown out very 'tube-shaped', you can see at the base of that top leaf it has curled around on itself into a tight tube instead of coming out flat. Often when this happens, the new baby leaf below it gets stuck and can't come out and that might have killed the growing point. I think that's probably what happened with this plant.

You can usually fix it by cutting through the tube with a sterile scalpel or razor blade, freeing the new leaf before it dies inside.

[mehitabel]

Are those huge leaves your keiki? Impressive growth. That one wants to live!

[Stelios]

Originally Posted by mehitabel

Are those huge leaves your keiki? Impressive growth. That one wants to live!

on today's photo on the left, the keiki's leaves are the ones toward the bottom of the photo. Yes it sure is a fighter, it really grew very quickly

Undergrounder... So that means that i might have blamed semi-hydro unjustified? Now that you mention it, it really makes sense that the tube caused the crown rot. I wish i knew this before. I am glad i know it can happen so i will be ready in case another phal has the same problem.

I am happy for the new spike and subspike and i can't wait to see it bloom again for me. Here's a photo of it's flower from last season.