Gibberelic acid

[mehitabel]

Hi, everyone. I wanted some napthalenic (sp?) acid (a root hormone), and found some at a website that also sold gibberelic acid (a growth hormone). I've seen gibb acid discussed by plantspeople for years. Just out of curiosity, got some at the same time. (Bob Gordon's Survey of Phal Growers mentioned it to start up plants that aren't growing despite good care. It's supposed to stimulate the growth of "leads").

"Sample" sizes were available cheap, so I got some of the g-acid. I tried it on a few phals, one drop into the crown, and got new leaves on some (not all). Then the devil whispered in my ear. I had two small new spikes starting, and couldn't resist. One drop on each of the spikes.

Some of you have already guessed, I bet! The spikes developed keikis-- really quickly, too. They never went thru a nub stage, just started almost biggish leaves right away. The two keikis now have two leaves each, size of one thumb-joint, about one month later. I don't know whether I would rather have the flowers or the keikis-- surprise keikis are definitely exciting. (But flowers are lovely, of course).

I haven't used it on a spent spike yet, tho I plan to try that next time I have one. I'm also going to try to find out if it will start basal keikis if sprayed on the sides of the stem. Have to wait til I find the right plant for this (one I don't care a whole lot about)

Not necessarily advocating doing this--just thought I'd mention it in case anyone was interested. If anyone else has used gibb acid on plants, not necessarily just on orchids, I'd really like to hear about your experience with it.

And oh, BTW, the napth acid-- I'm using it on some tiny things that came with puny roots and were barely alive. Okay so far.

[kid a]

I wonder if that is anything similar to the ingredients in kieki paste?

[CharliesAngel51]

Thanks for all the info. How exciting to try all those experiments and see such results. I can't wait to see what happens when you put it on a spent spike and the sides of a stem. You could have keikis all over the place. I have thought about getting keiki paste and trying it just for kicks. Sounds like the gibb acid would be better.

Mehitabel you truly are the mad scientist. LOL

[Fishmom]

Hey Mehitabel, that all sounds like fun! I just went and looked at my rooting hormone stuff, and it says 1-Napthalene acetic acid--0.11%. I use this at a 1 teaspoon per gallon dilution rate, per the instructions, or maybe just a bit more. I use it when repotting, trying to rescue something in distress, or just added to my regular "weakly, weekly" solution for a little extra boost. Are you using this full strength and dabbing it on, like the gibberelic acid, or diluting it conventionally?

[digitalgate]

remember hormone make the plant goes into overdrive. it also make the plant weak in defending itself from fungus or other problem. If you dont use it often , that would not be a problem.

[delphiguy]

i have been wanting to try GA3 (gibrellic acid) but i cant seem to find any local suppliers.
anyways i was glad that you are getting good results with it and nice experiment indeed.

Thanks for sharing you experience.

[mehitabel]

Hey, everybody. Thanks for chiming in. It's a lot more fun when you can share it with someone

Kid: I think keiki paste may be gibb-acid in a lanolin base. The seller calls it a "growth stimulator".

D'gate: Thanks for the warning. I do tend to go overboard sometimes, so warnings are always in order

Fishmom: No, I'm not using it full strength. You use 1/32nd tsp of a powder diluted in 40 oz of water. The napth I've been spraying on the leaves (per Bob Gordon). The g-acid is diluted at the same level, so not full strength either.

Angel: LOL. It's fun to talk about it. I've tried keiki paste, and it works. I don't know this is better. Remember I put it on a growing spike. The K paste is used on a dormant node. This is what I haven't tried yet.

But it's cheaper. I think keiki paste is about $25. The lanolin makes it stick to the node. The gibb-acid powder I used this time was under $10 for the sample size (but enough for lots of keikis). But it's a liquid, so it would run off instead of staying on.

And BTW, people have reported that keiki paste rubbed onto those sunken-in, dead looking growth nodes on ancient backbulbs of catts makes them sprout new growth.

[kid a]

is GA3 the stuff that can cause reproductive organ damage if there is prolonged exposure. I remember Erick Micheals talking about a chemical that flaskers & people that do tissue cloning and stuff like that use. I may be way off on that though lol it might have been something else lol.

[Stitz]

Mehitabel, I'm happy to read that you are having fun with the GA! I used to "play" with it extensively for years starting in the '70s. I tried it on many different orchids, Asian and South American, without any apparent effect. I did not apply it directly to spikes. I wasn't thinking that far ahead back then.

I did discover one excellent use of the GA product. When tomato seedling roots were soaked immediately prior to transplanting, there was never any "transplant shock" to the young plants. This had enormous value to me in friendly competitions to produce the first edible tomatoes of the season!

GA had extensive research done on food products back in the '50s. Green grapes sold in grocery stores today are still commonly treated with it. GA produces such wild growth in some plants, such as rice and beans, the plants grow too quickly and topple over. Their elongated cells are unable to support the rapid growth.

I noticed that some foliage plants grew enormous leaves. Coleus and dieffenbachia grew into huge, gorgeous specimens. Of course, it was necessary to frequently fertilize these overachievers at high concentrations. Frequent pruning was necessary in order to keep them bushy. Otherwise, they would become ridiculously "leggy".

The real reason that GA became more and more difficult to purchase? It dramatically increases the leaf growth and flowering of Cannabis. I never had any difficulty purchasing back then because I was employed in a business where unusual chemicals were commonplace.

I read a few years ago that if AOS Judges get a hint that a plant has been treated, they take a very dim view and will get highly incensed. Sooo, watch who you tell what in order to protect your reputation re: AOS Awards, if it matters to you.

I always purchased a 10% powder form. Much higher concentrations (90%) are available. The extremely small quantities that are needed make handling (measuring) those concentrations difficult unless you have professional quality balances available.

I wasn't too concerned about the safety of this product. It's been in the commercial agriculture industry in the USA for decades. Besides, it's too expensive to be careless with it!

I look forward to reading more about everyone's experiments!

--Stitz--

[Stitz]

kid a,

Perhaps you have the chemical colchicine in mind? It is used to manipulate cell growth and in the hands of a skilled person, 4N plants are produced in far greater numbers than are found naturally.

Colchicine is a very toxic chemical. I never bothered with it because of the danger.

--Stitz--

[Ray]

Originally Posted by Stitz

I did discover one excellent use of the GA product. When tomato seedling roots were soaked immediately prior to transplanting, there was never any "transplant shock" to the young plants.

Hmmmm.... Maybe help orchids when transplanting into new, drastically different media conditions?

[mehitabel]

Thanks for all the information, Stitz. I knew it had been around for ages among dirt gardeners, I'd seen it offered in catalogs. But never thought of it for orchids til I saw Bob Gordon's reference to it.

Elongated cells, and huge leaves on leaf decoratives, eh? Veddy interesting.

The stuff I bought is also powder form. They supply a 1/32nd teaspoon with it. The amount of powder per quart is about the size of a smilie Or maybe smaller. My "sample" size will likely last as long as I do.

Ray, I hope you'll do some transplant and seedling experiments with it and let us know the outcome.

[Stitz]

When I used GA for tomato seedlings, I was using ~ 18 mg per gallon of the 10% powder. I can't equate that into tsp measurements. I arrived at that figure after using the resources at the National Agricultural Library in Beltsville, Md -- decades BG Before Google!

It is best to assume nothing about this chemical while switching from one species to another. Take copious notes and measurements while "experimenting". I still have a few very old grams left with which to "play" on occasion.


--Stitz--

[mehitabel]

This is an update on the experiment spraying gibberelic acid on spikes. Two of the spikes I sprayed with g- acid developed keikis. A third developed a long spike with hyper-developed node coverings, and a bud on the end, but no keikis.

The two with keikis also sprouted another spike which I have left alone to see whether they turn into flower or keiki spikes.

After 5 weeks, the keikis are fairly large now: one at the base has at least a 2 inch span. I'm leaving it attached, for a bigger plant. The keiki that developed on the end of the stem has two 1-inch leaves, and a third tiny leaf speck starting. The stem keiki also has two tiny root nubbins, and something else, can't tell what it is yet, developing inside the node. I've been spritzing the root nubbins once or twice a day, and they seem to be growing.

[jerrymeola]

I tend to think much of what happened for you is coincidence.

I use Gibberelic acid all the time. It is a root growing stimulant. All the tests we have run show only fast root growth. It seems to take several months for the new roots to put strength into the plant to produce plant growth.

I do not like the use of the powder form since it does not dilute evenly.

I use Essentials brand made from seaweed by Growth Products. It is a liquid concentrate. It has a lot more elements than just Gibberelic acid.

I have sprayed it on my orchids once or twice a month for over a year. (50-200 to one dilution). I have used it as high as 10-1 (200-1 worked as well without the extra cost.) By now over 20,000 plants have been treated.

I have numerous Phals, many with hundreds per variety.

I have never had keiki develop on Phal spikes. I did have a number of basil keiki develop but only one one hybrid, Phal Nobby's Amy. I will not attribute this to the hormone since no other variety had the same effect.

It is common for my young Phals up to 4 inch pots to grow so much roots that the plant starts to lift out of the pot.

I think the regular use of the hormone has given me terrific root growth. The effects are more noticeable on young healthy plants. One inch Cattleya plugs re-potted into 2 inch pots will become root bound as fast as 6-8 weeks.

I recently posted a thread where I bought plug trays from another Geek at the beginning of the month. Many in 2 inch pots have fully developed roots already. Fully developed to me is that I can lift the plant from the table and the pot and medium come along without falling off. These plants were dunked when potted in a combination of Essentials, Companion (an anti-fungicide) and vermi-liquid from worm beds.

[mehitabel]

Jerry, I can't argue with you about the results you claim you've had.

Originally Posted by jerrymeola

I tend to think much of what happened for you is coincidence.

I use Gibberelic acid all the time. It is a root growing stimulant. All the tests we have run show only fast root growth. It seems to take several months for the new roots to put strength into the plant to produce plant growth.

I do not like the use of the powder form since it does not dilute evenly.

I use Essentials brand made from seaweed by Growth Products. It is a liquid concentrate. It has a lot more elements than just Gibberelic acid.

I have sprayed it on my orchids once or twice a month for over a year. I have numerous Phals, many with hundreds per variety. I have never had keiki develop on Phal spikes. I did have a number of basil keiki develop but only one one hybrid, Phal Nobby's Amy. I will not attribute this to the hormone since no other variety had the same effect.

It is common for my young Phals up to 4 inch pots to grow so much roots that the plant starts to lift out of the pot. I think the regular use of the hormone has given me terrific root growth.

*****

Well, Jerry, thanks so much for raining on my parade. I believe you are often excessively dogmatic and leap a little fast to show someone else up as wrong and brag about your enterprise in many of your posts. It's impolite, not to say irritating .

I can't argue with you about the results you claim you've had from the product you use and sell. However, your comments aren't really relevant to what I used or what the results were, because as you yourself say, *you aren't using the same product*. You are using *Essentials* which you claim to be equivalent to gibberelic acid, but by your own statement actually is a root stimulatant that has seaweed and many more elements.

I believe you that what you are using is indeed a root stimulant. Where you are wrong is in your claim that *Gibberelic Acid* is merely another root stimulant.

Here is an url to the Wikipedia definition of g-acid. It clearly states it regulates *growth*:

Gibberellic acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's what the article says it does:

> (in rice seedlings, it) causes them to grow so much taller than normal that they die from no longer being sturdy enough to support their own weight.
> Gibberellins have a number of effects on plant development. They can:
1) stimulate rapid stem and root growth,
2) induce mitotic division in the leaves of some plants,
3) increase seed germination rate.<

I didn't take the time to search for other articles. I believe it's clear you are incorrect in your statement that gibberelic acid is merely another root stimulant inferior to your product, Essentials.

The company I bought it from claims it to be a *growth* stimulant, and offers root stimulants in the form of IBA and napthalenic acid as well. So I assume they are correct in the properties they attribiute to the different products.

And, as far as "coincidence" goes -- the likelihood that I sprayed three spikes and two developed keikis and the third showed markedly elongated growth is very small. Not infinitisimal, but small. I've had over 70 phals spike in the last 12 months, no keikis, not one. Let's say the first keiki just happened, as you claim. Then the probability of one keiki was 1/70 = 0.014, or 1.4%. The probability of the second at exactly the same time was 1/70 x 1/70, or .014 x .014 = 0.00019 or about 2 per 10,000. Your claim of "coincidence" is defeated by the odds.

Furthermore, these were not equestris or doritis hybrids, with a keiki tendency.

The fact that you get fabulous root growth and didn't get any keikis from spikes sprayed with Essentials doesn't tell us anything about the effect of Gibberelic Acid. In your eagerness to sing your own praises and those of the products you sell, you are giving out incorrect information. IMO.

[NicC]

Originally Posted by Stitz

kid a,

Perhaps you have the chemical colchicine in mind? It is used to manipulate cell growth and in the hands of a skilled person, 4N plants are produced in far greater numbers than are found naturally.

Colchicine is a very toxic chemical. I never bothered with it because of the danger.

--Stitz--

By the way, Colchicine is a pharmaceutical used primarily in the treatment of acute (and chronic) gout. The pill is 0.6 mg.
Nick

[JLu]

I nominate Mehitabel for the first annual Geeks "TG for Common Sense" award. You go girl!

You're right Nick. Colchicine is used to treat gout in very minor quantities. It is also a deadly poison in higher concentrations. It is regularly and safely used in horticulture to stimulate polyploidy. Safety is important when handling it. I'm sure this what Kid A is talking about. BTW....colchicine is a natural product that is extracted from the Autumn Crocus. A good example of naturally occurring is not a synonym for safe.

[Stitz]

Originally Posted by JLu

IColchicine is....also a deadly poison in higher concentrations. It is regularly and safely used in horticulture to stimulate polyploidy. Safety is important when handling it.

Thank you, JLu, for confirming what I posted on 08-19-2009, at 12:29 AM.

--Stitz--