interest in home flasking?

[exasperatus2002]

Since a few of us here have dappled in hybridizing orchids, I thought it'd be neat for a group project on home flasking. I will make some hybrids & distribute seed to whom ever is interested (if I have enough to go around). Once the capsules dehisc, you'd receive an email requesting an address to send the seed. Participants would have to either make their own agar or purchase premade mixes. There are recipes on this forum on how to make their own.

Right now I wanted to see if theres anyone interested in such a project? The project will use Phalaenopsis since it can be grown in most homes since not everyone has adequate lighting for Cattleyas or other high light species.

[dtje2000]

Good luck to those intrepid growers who take on this project! I have barely moved into the arena of trying to raise a few successfully as seedlings!

[solay]

I'd be interested only if you're going to walk me through the steps. I have no idea how to flask and never tried.

[Survolte]

I would be very interested, Im new but would love the experience. Please let me know if I can be involved. oh and I like your avatar solay. Im getting an encyclia cochleata from someone on OG.

[LouisW]

I have wondered if you could make your own agar. Can you explain how?

[lmartiny]

Sounds interesting but I'm not sure I'm experienced enough.

[patticake]

I'm game! I know that doodlekitty has made her own and been successful! I know that the agar can be purchased, also. I would love to try, but as Solay said, I would need to be walked through the steps!

[hulaorchid]

I would love to someday. My growing area is not too well controlled! But good luck to those who can join.

[doodlekitty]

Waittttttttttt hold the boat!!!!!!! Thanks for the vote of confidence Patticake.......BUT I haven't made my own!!!!!!!! I'm more than happy to share what I have used to date...but I'm still experimenting!!! The "chids" that I have been sharing with everyone here were sown on media I purchased from the "Kitchen Culture Kit" Kitchen Culture Kits - Intro Page.

That reminds me....I think its time for an update over on the other thread!!

[jay]

Doodlekitty - How funny. I have that page in my bookmarks to purchase when I am ready to do some flasking. Glad to hear that someone has used their product with success.

Which kit did you get, and would you buy the same kit, smaller kit, or add on with other supplies now that you have done it once?

[solay]

Thanks Survolte. It's not blooming now but is making new growths.

OK, I'll look around and see the costs involved first. I think I may buy the media since it should be easier. Right?

[patticake]

Originally Posted by doodlekitty

Waittttttttttt hold the boat!!!!!!! Thanks for the vote of confidence Patticake.......BUT I haven't made my own!!!!!!!! I'm more than happy to share what I have used to date...but I'm still experimenting!!! The "chids" that I have been sharing with everyone here were sown on media I purchased from the "Kitchen Culture Kit" Kitchen Culture Kits - Intro Page.

That reminds me....I think its time for an update over on the other thread!!

Sorry, doodles! My bad! I thought you made your own- it doesn't matter, just to execute the whole process, is awesome! I'll be waiting for your update!

[exasperatus2002]

Ive gotten a few websites that sell media and Im still working on the home recipes. Seems theres enough takers here to do a project. I've got some pollinia on the way so once I get it, I'll start making some capsules and get the ball rolling. This will be a new experience for most of us. Its like working on a car. You start out working on a beater car and in time you get to work on rebuilding a classic. Heres our chance to see the hidden side of our hobby. While Im not a car guy, I do like to see how it works and I must be blind because I have to do it hands on. Funny thing is I catch myself saying to my 2 yr old daughter, what my mom used to tell me (and I still dont listen)... "look with your eyes not with your hands!" lol.

[maninair]

I am intereted in the project and a lover of Phalaenopsis. I am from Mumbai, India. Please reply so that I can email my address to you.

Regards,

Mani.

[exasperatus2002]

Maninair

Thank you for your interest in this project but I wont be able to send it internationally. This would only be available within the US because of the regulations, permits required. Im sorry.

[patticake]

Originally Posted by exasperatus2002

Maninair

Thank you for your interest in this project but I wont be able to send it internationally. This would only be available within the US because of the regulations, permits required. Im sorry.

Does CITES include seed?

[Stelios]

Originally Posted by exasperatus2002

Maninair

Thank you for your interest in this project but I wont be able to send it internationally. This would only be available within the US because of the regulations, permits required. Im sorry.

In order for a plat to be shiped internationaly a CITES and phytosanitary is required.According to CITES.org website Apendix II species and hybrids are ok to be shiped without a CITES documentation required. Phytosanitary documentation is not required for culture in vitro (flasks) as they are sterile enviroment.

[patticake]

Originally Posted by Stelios

In order for a plat to be shiped internationaly a CITES and phytosanitary is required.According to CITES.org website Apendix II species and hybrids are ok to be shiped without a CITES documentation required. Phytosanitary documentation is not required for culture in vitro (flasks) as they are sterile enviroment.

What about seed? It would be so nice to have folks outside the U.S. in on this one, if possible! I would help with mailing costs if it's possible to send the seed.

[kip]

orchid seed is generally exempt from cites.
wish I could join the project, but I've never managed to keep a Phal alive, And I have several flasks going right now anyway.

[jay]

Some countries require a seed import permit. These are usually very inexpensive and easy to obtain. I would check into what your country requires.

[Stelios]

no need for CITES doesn't mean that no other regulation excists. Local ministry of agricalture of each country should be a great source. Usually seeds should have some type of permit. Pollen can be imported freely in a lot of countries as it is regarded food related with beekeeping (honey and pollen) but please check with local aurthorities first.

[flowerchild]

I would be interested in trying this too!!!!

[grandmapenguin]

Oh what the heck
Count me in; the worst I can do is kill it.
Tried to get kida in but I think she's asleep on me.
Terry

[mosmanlow]

Hi from Downunder Australia.

Interested and will follow the thread

Still reading up on this and checking on websites like :

Kitchen Culture Kits -* Plant Tissue Culture for Beginners

or check out youtube.com

( Edited By Fred )


Will have a go at this sometime soon.

Great idea
step by step...

Enjoy the chllenges!

[willowbanks]

Mosmanlow, what are you trying to do by posting that link to Youtube about micropropagation, scare the boots off Geeks that want to give seed raising a go????

For all above that are interested in giving seed raising a try, seed raising in flask is a simple process and has nothing to do with that link.

Bill

[patticake]

I think it will be fun to try. I would sure like to get the hang of it. Flasking and re-plating prices are pretty steep. I'm looking forward to it!

[Survolte]

good. That video did scare me lol. I was like wtf is he talking about the whole time. I would really like to give this a go. What supplies are required, and does anyone have a guestimate price on the stuff needed?

[willowbanks]

Exasperatus2002, looks like you have stirred some interest in your seed raising project, all good.

What I would like to know is how are you going to get the seeds into the flask to start with???

Bill

[Stelios]

I'll participate too.
I ordered Sigma's germination medium, and orchid sustain medium for the replate, forcepts and 4 elenmayers, finally i found a use for having a chemical engineer as a brother lol. He looked it up a bit and proposed that i will use the following chemicals for seed germination Sigma P6668 and replating Sigma P1056 both mixed with Agar (He sent me the Agar as they have a lot of it in his lab but he told me i should use it a.s.a.p. and keep it in the fridge) The propagators will be delivered the day after tomorrow in a little styrofoam fridge.

My crazy NOID Cymbidium has 6 seedpods for a few months now as a result for bugs getting inside. I think they have not matured enough though so i will also use a Phal seedpod that i pollinated with a toothpick this winter (it should be mature by now usually they need 6 months and 4 have passed). The seedpod is on a Phal Elegant Deborah and pollen came from a NOID phal (that looks similar in shape and color to B. Kaleidoscope)

My brother gave me a lot of details over the phone and also sent me instruction via e-mail on how i could try keeping everything sterile. I can't wait for the team to start flasking

[patticake]

Oh, cool! It will be fun to all be trying this at the same time world-wide! Isn't the internet great? None of us would know each other, let alone be friends and work on projects together!

[willowbanks]

Slow down Stelios, your making my head spin.

Those Sigma products look pretty good.

Can't understand why you want the extra agar, the Sigma product is agar and nutrients combined.

Bill

[Stelios]

datasheet for both products:

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/etc/medi...p/p1056dat.pdf
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/etc/medi...p/p6668dat.pdf

they do not have Agar Agar or any other gelling agent in them. you have to add the gelling agent (usually Agar) according to the preparation directions on the datasheets. My brother also provided me in depth info and sent me a plant cell culture book that i will recieve tomorrow and read it as he strongly advised me not to do anything before reading the book and his instruction.

[grandmapenguin]

Would you believe Our Speaker at our monthly Orchid meeting was
an Orchid Specialist who has a Lab and explained the process of moving the seeds through the flasking process. He showed the equipment or sterile lab they work in to transfer the seeds. It was so amazing.
Really peaked my interest.
Terry

[patticake]

This is a sign that it was meant to be for you!!

[mosmanlow]

Dear Stelios,

Happy reading the "Plant Cell Culture" book.
It's great to have a chemical engineer as a brother
and also nice to send you a book and offer support!

What is the name of the book as I came across several.
I am just no good in reading especially if it is written
with lots of technical jargons,

Watching your progress with interest.
Once again thanks for sharing

[Stelios]

thanks mosmanlow
it's in Greek and by Greek writers, it's actually a univercity textbook translated title is Plant cell culture 1, my bro told me it should be easy to read as it introducts each term first but it has some basic chemistry and biology terms. He thinks i'll manage as i had a top mark on chemistry and biology in highschool (better than his marks lol).

[kninum]

Since none of the trials i did ended up as pods , i would certainly be interested in trying out the next stage of seeds/flasking.......hopefully seed can be shipped to Canada.... worse comes to worse i'll just keep trying with the few phals i have, eventually it has to work LOL

[bemarine]

What kind of agar. I work in a lab with a micro department. Could I use that? what then?

[exasperatus2002]

I was going to type out the steps but its to much so heres all the info I have.

How to Flask orchid Seed-

This is a link to a site with very good instructions on flasking, including equipment needed.

Home Orchid Flasking

another site - Western Orchids Laboratory - Orchid Tissue Culture Medium / Media




I will be building a disposable one using a large cardboard box, Plexiglas window, plastic sheeting as a liner so it can be sterilized and disposable gloves used for butchering deer since they go up to the elbow and they’re cheap. You want to make it as airtight as possible to keep mold spores & bacteria from wafting in after you’ve sterilized the inside. Talk about a DIY project.

Besides whats listed on that website, here are a few other sources of materials.
Rockbridge Laboratory Services

Home Tissue Culture* Group Catalog - Kits

Plant Growth Research & Development | PhytoTechnology Laboratories

Hill's Orchid Culture Medium Price List

OrchidSource Laboratory and Nursery-wholesale orchids, stem propagation, growing instructions, procedures, tissue media, cultures, pictures

I emailed home tissue culture to see which of the kits would be ok for what we’re doing. This is what they had to say-

“Assuming you have a 'clean box' or equivalent plus other supplies, the Media Two may work for you. One of the articles I am sending recommends TDZ and IBA or NAA. Alternatively you might want to look over the Orchid Kit sold by Phytotech Labs. Our Scavenger Kit might work best for you as it comes with two liters of media with agar, supplies for media preparation and baby food jar caps. Many orchids germinate well on a 1/2 MS without hormones. “

[Stelios]

OK so i've read all the instructions here, on other sites and on my brothers book. I followed the instruction for the media preparation of the manufacturer and i made it. I then put the medium in flasks and in the oven for 40 mins at 125C. Now everything should be sterile. I have to wait a couple of hours so the medium will cool again and be ready to use. I am now reading on how to effectively sterilize a green seed pod so i could continue. Hopefully it will be ready in a few hours and then the wait for protocorns (or mold if i haven't sterilize everything correctly) to develope. I am crossing fingers

[Stelios]

after it cooled it become stable (at first i thought i made something wrong but agar begome gel in 30-40C again). I sterilized the seedpods with peroxide, bleach and alchohol and took the seeds. I didn't new that the pods had something like wool inside along the seeds and the seeds was hardly visible. So ive put the wool thing as well in the flasks and if the protocorn will develope i could take only them during replating them to the second flasks. I have 3 flasks all are hybrids of a Phal Elegant Deborah and a NOID one looking like Baldas Kaleidoscope (but still a NOID). The Big flask has the seeds with the NOID being the mother and Deborah the father. The 2 smaller flask is pure luck as one has the same seed as the biger flask and the other has the reversed parents. I will have to be very carefull if i would like to keep doing it so everything will be properly loged. So next time i will log even the pollination date. Let's leave this time as an experience to see if i will manage to get anything other than mold to grow inside.

[Stelios]

ok after a week of my first try i looked closely to the flasks...

good news: i can not see any sign of contamination like mold
bad news: i can not see any sign of the seeds germinating

anyone knows how long does it take to give any kind of sign? I think the small white dots are a bit bigger; could they started waking up? but shouldn't they be green?

[delphiguy]

i will be watching this thread with much interest, as i have a luisia teretefolia with a few
pods, i think 4 at the moment. And i cant seem to find someone who can flask it for me
(probably expensive if ever i found one). so you can do it at home, maybe so can i.

[exasperatus2002]

Im trying to start the Phals for the project. So far one bloom rejected it and failed, the other two are holding on for now. I've got another Phal starting a subspike incase these dont take.

[mah0609]

Originally Posted by exasperatus2002

Since a few of us here have dappled in hybridizing orchids, I thought it'd be neat for a group project on home flasking. I will make some hybrids & distribute seed to whom ever is interested (if I have enough to go around). Once the capsules dehisc, you'd receive an email requesting an address to send the seed. Participants would have to either make their own agar or purchase premade mixes. There are recipes on this forum on how to make their own.

Right now I wanted to see if theres anyone interested in such a project? The project will use Phalaenopsis since it can be grown in most homes since not everyone has adequate lighting for Cattleyas or other high light species.

Hi there, I am definetely interested and trying to purchase what I need to get me started, so far I have knudsons C orchid medium, ("though not sure if I need to prepare/sterilize in any special way as there were no instructions ) I just read that this medium was successful, i also have a replate medium that I purchased via phytomax I'm not sure if I have sufficient light requirements, i'm thinking of starting under a flourescent light (in a fish tank to help prevent contaminiation) but this is in a garage so I'm hoping the temp is ok ...I wanted to give it a try anyway, I also have a phal and Vanda pollinated (both swelling) so hopefully in a couple of months I will have something to work with.

[Stelios]

Originally Posted by exasperatus2002

Im trying to start the Phals for the project. So far one bloom rejected it and failed, the other two are holding on for now. I've got another Phal starting a subspike incase these dont take.

i always wanted to ask this and learn how thing work. Why is it that some developing pods are rejected during early stages?

[Stelios]

i just checked on the flasks again... I think one is contaminated (#3) it's all whitish on the surface.
#1 doesn't show any sign of progress at all , at least it is not contaminated.
#2 started to gain a greenish color, i think it is germinating.

here's the photo

[exasperatus2002]

I've got 2 capsules starting to develope for the project. I had to use the noid Phal since the Fireberry rejected my attempt to cross it this time. I'll post pics later since Im at work at the moment.

[rcb]

Originally Posted by Stelios

i always wanted to ask this and learn how thing work. Why is it that some developing pods are rejected during early stages?

Stelios, I would guess there are many reasons, like incompatible genetics, age of either pollen or pod parent flower, age of the plant, sterility, health of the pod parent, placement of pollen on stigmatic surface are a couple examples I can think of right now, but I'm sure there are many more.

[Anton]

Only one simple explanation I am afraid.......POOR HYGENE when sterilising.

This IS PARAMOUNT to successful flasking.

I have seen Willowbanks' set up and he has been successfully flasking for years, plus we had one of the top cultivators give our club a talk on it one night, and both are fastidious with sterilising and impregnating the agar.

So, if willowbanks offers any suggestions, I personally would listen. He has bred many Grand Champions over the years, so has the runs on the board.

[Stelios]

Originally Posted by Anton

Only one simple explanation I am afraid.......POOR HYGENE when sterilising.

yes, i agree. #1 &#2 was 50ml flasks with narrow necks. Although i prepared them in the kitchen over a pot of steaming water, i managed to keep them sterile. The #3 is a 100 ml one and has double the size of a neck, so it was more dificult to keep the steam contnously covering the opening. Although #1 is not showing germination signs, it is not contaminated either. At any case even 1 succesfull mother flask out 3 will be a success for me as it was my first ever try into flasking. Maybe in the future i could improve.

[Stelios]

photo update.

I think i have some healthy protocorns

[patticake]

Originally Posted by Stelios

photo update.

I think i have some healthy protocorns

Awesome!!!

[Stelios]

thanks Patti!

Although i have to ask, aren't they a bit crowded? When should i replate them? They are about 1-1,5 mm thick now. I am afraid they are too small for me to handle them but i also worry that they will be stressed so packed together.

[jay]

Congrats! Keep us updated on the progress.

[Stelios]

I had a surprise...
as you remember i had 3 flasks, one was contaminated, one developed protocorns and the 3rd was just sitting there doing nothing. Here are a couple of better photos of the succesfull flask...





and the surprise is that the idle one is starting to also germinate ! It has 2 visible embryos so far

So it's 66% success to maintain sterile enviroments on my first try and possibly the same rate of germination. (sorry for bragging but i am excited).



Also last night i used 22 jars of mayonese/ jam/ mustard etc, 6 test tubes and 4 elenmayers to flask seeds from my white NOID cymbidium (i used about half the content of each of the 5 out of 6 seedpods). I kept one seedpod for later since i didn't had any more flasks lol. Mayonaise jars are harder to kept sterile since they have a very wide opening so i flasked a lot. Let's see what will happen. I flasked so many because my cym was pollinated by bugs so there is always a slim chance that it was not self pollinated. So i want to be sure that if (one in a million) a bug carried pollen from another plant (mine or not) i will get to see the result.

[trinigirl]

How awesome! Thanks for posting the pics showing your success!

I am so excited, I want to try it too!!!

[Stelios]

i regretfully have to post that after replating the protocorns... they migrated to a better place snif.
I will try next year again and try to get some equipment that will better maintain sterile conditions.

[kid a]

Originally Posted by jay

Some countries require a seed import permit. These are usually very inexpensive and easy to obtain. I would check into what your country requires.

Some countries will let you import and export seeds in the pod without any certificates or CITES stuff.

[solay]

Stelios, sorry about them not making it. I think you did a great job anyway and practice makes perfect.

[patticake]

Dang! It's a learning process. One that I haven't been brave enough to try yet. Better luck next year....

[WoWElf]

Sorry to hear about your experiment. I was wondering if you can use TSA (Tryptic Soy agar) media to grow orchids? It is generally commonly used in the Microbiology world as a basic essential medium for growing bacteria and the pH is generally around 7. Oh, what is the typical volume of media required to grow a seed? Thanks and Bye.

[Stelios]

Originally Posted by WoWElf

Sorry to hear about your experiment. I was wondering if you can use TSA (Tryptic Soy agar) media to grow orchids? It is generally commonly used in the Microbiology world as a basic essential medium for growing bacteria and the pH is generally around 7. Oh, what is the typical volume of media required to grow a seed? Thanks and Bye.

well agar is just the gelling agent, you will require an orchid sustain medium either sold by a chemical company or house made (banana, potato and chacroal mix works for some species of orchids).
Aprox 1-2 cm of media in the flask or jar should be enough for seeds and 3-5 cm for replated protocorns so they will have some space to develope roots.

[mah0609]

Originally Posted by exasperatus2002

Since a few of us here have dappled in hybridizing orchids, I thought it'd be neat for a group project on home flasking. I will make some hybrids & distribute seed to whom ever is interested (if I have enough to go around). Once the capsules dehisc, you'd receive an email requesting an address to send the seed. Participants would have to either make their own agar or purchase premade mixes. There are recipes on this forum on how to make their own.

Right now I wanted to see if theres anyone interested in such a project? The project will use Phalaenopsis since it can be grown in most homes since not everyone has adequate lighting for Cattleyas or other high light species.

does anyone have any seeds they would like to share?

Thanks
arleene

[exasperatus2002]

Originally Posted by mah0609

does anyone have any seeds they would like to share?

Thanks
arleene

I've got one capsule now of the 3 I tried to start for the project but it'll be a few more months before its ready.

[Brooke]

What did you finally get to take? The white vio I sent I think is sterile. We couldn't get it to set a pod or for the pollen to set anything. Bummer

Brooke

[Stelios]

Do you remember my first trial to flask a noid Phal hybrid i made last June? All three flasks were contaminated and died last August....
Before throwing everything i took a few protocorns from the midle of the third flask and threw them on bark chips in a 3cm pot. I closed it in a jar and i open it every now and then to water it. I thought they would die but it's October and they are still green! They haven't increased in size from what i could tell but they are still green. Do you think they have a chance forming seedlings?

[Stelios]

In November i took the pot outside of the jar and it sits on the coffee table since. Here's how the 2 of the tiny phals look today

[patticake]

Cool! Good luck with it! I'll get some viable seed one of these days!

[Stelios]

thanks Patti!. I wish your project will be more successful than mine. Does any member any experience with so young plants potted? I could use some advice.

[exasperatus2002]

Excellent! Suddenly I've got that old song "I will survive" stuck in my head.

[Stelios]

Originally Posted by exasperatus2002

Excellent! Suddenly I've got that old song "I will survive" stuck in my head.

lol

[patticake]

I would just mist it often. Not letting it get really dry.

[Schlyne]

Good luck! I would be interested in trying this.

Actually I'm kind of curious now, I think my plant variations class in January has a lab...I wonder if we'll be doing any of this?

[Stelios]

you could sure check with them. I am sure they could have a laminar flow hood in the lab so even if they don't want to do it for you, you could use the equipment to do it your self.