Brassavola - noid - is this tooooo purple?

[katrina]

OK...so this is a noid Brassavola. The guy I got this from had lost the tag...to the best of his memory, he thought it was a flagellaris...but didn't make any promises.

The plant hangs in an East facing, completely unobstructed window and has been since late last Sept/Early Oct....about 6-8 inches inside. There is bright light coming in the window until sometime around 11a-11:30am. He's had a really nice purple cast on many of his leaves since I got him last year. Growth has been steady and strong...new leaves...new roots.

In the past couple of weeks he has gone really purple. I know the sun is getting more intense but I wouldn't think 6-8" back from an east facing window would be too much light for one of these guys.

I have a number of Brassavola and know that the purple is a good thing. The cordata is good if it's really purple but my nodosa anymore than the heavy freckling and the leaf dies.

At first I wasn't concerned over this really heavy purple but...I now have a split in one of the leaves. I'm wondering...too much sun? Again, seems weird for an east window but ? .

Or...am I worrying for nothing...leaf split maybe being a fluke event?

Anyone ever have this happen w/one of these guys?

I don't know if the picture shows it very well but in person it almost resembles a situation where maybe the leaf grew so fast it just split. If that makes sense and if it's even possible. ??

I've had catts get sunburned before and this doesn't look anything like those did. Confusion, confusion.

Check it out and tell me what you guys think. Thanks!

Whole plant -- you can see which leaves are getting hit w/the most sun


Leaf comparison -


Upclose of the intensity of the purple - flash w/this photo


The split and discoloration

[kmarch]

I'm not s concerned about the purple as I am about that yellow-green patch on the last pic. To my eye that looks like it cold be sunburn. The plant was most lileky grown in quite high light, possibly to get it to flower as some Brassavolas are occasionally a little shy to flower. i suspect that the highest light you have is not as high as what it had. Give it a go and see what happens. I dont' see any cause for alarm though.

[katrina]

I'm confused. That super deep purple color has happened under my care...and in an east window...it never got that purple hanging in my tree last summer.

The yellow/green patch is the area that's split. Prior to a few weeks ago there was just a nice light purple cast to the leaves and to the best of my knowledge...at least I never noticed it before...no split or discoloration on that leaf.

Is it possible it was there and I didn't see it until the leaves turned this really deep purple? Perhaps burned before but it blended? I don't think my east window could've caused sunburn. My south windows...that's another story but certainly not east. Right?

Would you keep it in the same area and just watch it then?

Thanks for your help Kevin!

[kid a]

i wish i could offer some help help but i can't keep these things alive for beans lol

[kmarch]

Hmmm....so you mean to say it has gotten more purple indoors? Is it possible that the outdoor light was more shaded (e.g. lower) than your indoor east window? I used to flower Brassavola nodosa pretty consistently indoors in an east window. The yellow-green is probably a discoloration from the split. Just keep an eye on it. If it goes mushy remove it.

[lmartiny]

Well, the purple looks pretty, as long as its not harmful. Maybe move it back from the window a little more if you can.

[rcb]

What about temp sensitivity? It looks like from the picture you are growing in your house, but some of the Brassavolas are very warm growers? Is it possible that by the window it gets too cold for it?

Just an idea I had, don't some other orchids get a reddish cast when they get too cold?

[Brooke]

Could the one leaf be touching the window and gotten too cold? The purple doesn't bother me but if this is a new leaf that is well hydrated and it is touching the window, cell collapse could look like this.

And that is just a big guess!

Brooke

[patticake]

I think the purple is fine! As Kevin and Brooke stated, just watch the yellowing part. I have mine in a south window and have purple on it. It's like a sun tan! Tans are fine, burns are not. Just like people!

[katrina]

Yep...it's gotten THAT purple inside in the east window. It has a nice purple cast outside when it was hanging in the tree last summer...carried that coloration through most of this winter.... but not this deep. It's gradually gotten darker and darker in just the past couple/few weeks. It is possible there was a bit less time of direct sun when it was outside because of the tree it hung in but I would not of thought all that much. ?? I suppose the leaves are telling me it is getting more sun inside. Interesting.

The sun has gotten more intense recently...getting higher in the sky I suppose. I would not have expected this in an east window...my plants in the South windows now require the blinds to be slatted to dapple the sun or I'll have burned leaves. Again, interesting.

Nope...not touching the windows at all. As a matter of fact, the split is on the side that faces into the room...the healthy purple side faces the window.

I do know there is cold that radiates in from that window but I don't think it's a temp thing. I have other plants that are in the area...due to their placement they aren't getting the direct sun...but they would be getting any heat or cold coming off that window and they are fine.

It's one big mystery! Is it possible it's growing so fast that it splits itself? It has developed a good number of leaves since I got it and mine are consistently larger/longer than the ones it came with.

I guess keep it where it is and just keep an eye on it for any other issues... ?

Would you guys trim off that ugly part? I'm tempted but I absolutely hate the idea of trimming one of these leaves.

[fred]

Quote] Would you guys trim off that ugly part? I'm tempted but I absolutely hate the idea of trimming one of these leaves.

my own opinion yes I would trim the damaged part and touch up with cinnamon
if water remains in there the psbulb may rot causing more damage to the plant

secondly if you do put the chid outside it leaves that part wide open for incests

[kmarch]

I wouldn't trim unless it gets mushy. As long as there's still at least part of the leaf living, it can benefit the plant. At least that's my understanding of leaf biology.

[kmarch]

....and while I was posting not to trim, fred was posting to trim. LOL, never go starving for opinions when the orchid geeks are around. LOL!

[fred]

its great to have as many opinions as possible Kevin

[Brooke]

I've had young newly planted trees swell at the base and "sort of" rupture the bark at the base but I forget the technical reason that caused it.

Mark the offending area with a felt tip pen and if the yukky part (that is the technical term for it :>) increases I would cut it off. If it doesn't advance, I would leave it. If it is something nasty, it should move rather fast.

I've sunburned plants in an ESE window in the spring too.

Brooke

[katrina]

Thanks Brooke, Kevin and Fred. I will hold off for now (mark the area) and watch it like a hawk.

It reminds me of a story I once heard about a bodybuilder on steroids. His use of the 'roids and his workouts caused a HUGE increase in muscle mass...according to the story...super fast growth. Anyway...during a workout one of his biceps split. When I look at my little plant I can't help but think of that story. LOL!

Thanks everyone for your helpful input here! It's much appreciated.

[LouisW]

The purple looks to be only on the new growth, is that right? i could be that the plant is putting out purple leaves because it is gasping for light. The leaves are being over packed with chlorophyll because its the only way for the plant to get the light it needs. Try giving it a little more and see if they lighten up.

[rodcuda]

Some plants will get more purple than othen depending on their genetics. Your plant seems to be getting maximum sun so I would ruduce the light a little since you seem to be so close the the fine line of sunburn. As for the leaf that is a personal choice, as long as you keep an eye on it, it should not threten the rest of the plant. If it stated getting worse lose that leaf.

[Hummer344]

Quote "secondly if you do put the chid outside it leaves that part wide open for incests"

Ah this is the last line from a post by Fred. Sorta caught my eye and made me chuckle. If you put your orchids outside, you will have to whatch out for incests amoung them. You never know what your chids will do if you leave um outside by them selves. LOL

[jerrymeola]

Here is a very different answer some of which has been touched on in the thread.

Bassovola have terete leaves and can because of that take very high light levels, well over the levels you will get through a home window. Terete leaves dissipate heat like a radiator. Burn is the heat build up in the leaf causing the chlorophyll to die. Purple sometimes is the start but not here.

Any plant with B nodosa in its parentage will develop red spots or purple leaves when it is chilled. This is what I believe is you problem. It only takes a couple of hours of chill to bring this on.

We are getting it this year even when they are growing in Phalaenopsis light levels. It does not happen on every plant but on about 15% of them. I have 12 B Little stars on a large mount, a picture of which I have posted before. 4 of the 12 developed red spotting and dark leaves 8 did not. This was when the light was much lower levels than normal (2000 foot candles). I grow them in very high 5000 foot candles in the summer and do not get burn.

The chlorophyll is dead in the purple leaves so keeping them on the plant does not produce food. Cut it off if you do not like the look, which is what I do. It will not hurt the plant to leave it on.

As for the yellow, it is just a naturally dieing leaf. It will turn totally yellow and then dry up and fall of if ignored.

[katrina]

Originally Posted by jerrymeola

Here is a very different answer some of which has been touched on in the thread.

Bassovola have turret leaves and can because of that take very high light levels, well over the levels you will get through a home window. Turret leaves dissipate heat like a radiator. Burn is the heat build up in the leaf causing the chlorophyll to die. Purple sometimes is the start but not here.

Any plant with B nodosa in its parentage will develop red spots or purple leaves when it is chilled. This is what I believe is you problem. It only takes a couple of hours of chill to bring this on.

We are getting it this year even when they are growing in Phalaenopsis light levels. It does not happen on every plant but on about 15% of them. I have 12 B Little stars on a large mount, a picture of which I have posted before. 4 of the 12 developed red spotting and dark leaves 8 did not. This was when the light was much lower levels than normal (2000 foot candles). I grow them in very high 5000 foot candles in the summer and do not get burn.

The chlorophyll is dead in the purple leaves so keeping them on the plant does not produce food. Cut it off if you do not like the look, which is what I do. It will not hurt the plant to leave it on.

As for the yellow, it is just a naturally dieing leaf. It will turn totally yellow and then dry up and fall of if ignored.

Jerry I'll need you to help explain these statements a bit further because right now I have to disagree w/much of what you've written. I could be wrong so that's why I'm asking for a bit more information...please.

First...I will agree w/the possibility of a chill. If this is a flagellaris, I know they prefer no less than mid 60's and I let the temps drop into the upper 50's at night. However, if it were temps causing the purple and the split...I believe the whole plant would be purple and more leaves would be showing trouble. Correct?

Let's talk about the purple though. OK...so my understanding is as follows. Chlorophyll is the major player in photosynthesis however, it is not the only player. There is also Xanthophyll, Carotene, Anthocyanin and I believe there is another one but I can't recall it's name...I'd have to ask my husband...I'm the just gardener...he's the plant biology major (LOL!).

In conjunction w/chlorophyll these other "accessory pigments" take part in photosynthesis but they also serve other purposes. Let's just discuss the the one that my plant is showing real well...Anthocyanin (can be red, purple or even blue). Besides helping w/photosynthesis, this one act as a sunscreen of sorts. Protecting the leaves from the high light stress by absorbing the UV radiation that would otherwise damage the leaf and kill the chlorophyll. Basically, just because the leaf is purple does not mean it can no longer photosynthesis light and to the best of my knowledge, it in no way means the chlorophyll is dead.

A great example of what I mean....my Little Stars...it had some nice purple spots in June...the sun moved...the plant got a little too much sun and became way too purple (quick death for a Little Stars)...I moved it....within a short period of time the purple lessened back to an acceptable level. The same thing would happen to this one I'm sure...if I moved it to a lower light area, it would probably revert back to the greener color...therefore the chlorophyll can not be dead.


So...that's my understanding of it all. If I'm wrong or missing something I'd welcome getting the correct information. Please do explain your statements a bit further so that I can understand where you're coming from.

[kmarch]

To explain a term Jerry used above, a terete leaf is one that is pencil shaped. This type of leaf is found in some Brassavola species, some Vanda species, and in a few other genera (I seem to recall a Dendrobium that has terete or semi-terete leaves).

[jerrymeola]

Katerina

I do not disagree with what you are saying.

My advice is more practical than scientific. I find that when these leaves get that purple there seems to be little benefit to the plant and they do not seem to green again.

Spotting on Little Stars I recognize and I wonder if they really lighten or as the plant grows the spots are less noticeable. Small amounts of burn can look like they are healing as the leaf gets larger.

I prefer to cut off bad leaves and force the plant to grow new leaves. I also believe in cutting off large amounts of roots on re-potting to force new growth. I do not say anyone should follow this advice. I would prefer a quick death to a long lingering one. Over a period of time I seem to have many more recover with the heavy pruning and I like the results. If the plant is basically healthy then cutting reshapes the plant and improves its looks.

I do not let a plant continue to grow in a manner I consider to be unappealing. I will prune it or cut it into pieces and re-pot. This is my preference and only one of many ways to grow an orchid.

So this is the basis of the opinions I give. Many other approaches work and I do not treat every plant the same but decide on each individually.

[jerrymeola]

Kevin

thanks for defining terete. I usually define trade expressions but missed it this time.

I want to encourage any forum member confused with wording to ask the definition. You will not look dumb. It took me three years to find the meaning of terete. People used it and never explained themselves.

[katrina]

Thank you for explaining Jerry. I clearly misunderstood you to mean that the plant was all but dead since most of my leaves are purple. Gotcha now.


I greatly appreciate everyone's input. I have marked the leaf w/the split to monitor it's size and make sure it doesn't grow. It's not mushy or soft or anything...just split..and discolored. I will keep it where it is for now...and simply monitor it. If that spot grows...OFF w/it! If I see any other splits or funky leaf things (like that technical term?) I'll move it.

To answer your question Louis...the leaves that are purple are new and older leaves. If I were to effectively get a pic of the plant when it's hanging in the window...with the sun shining in...you'd be able to see the leaves that are purple are the ones that are getting that direct sun the longest. The green ones only see a couple of hours...they become shaded by it's own leaves and a dangling plant above this one.

Thanks again everyone!!